Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Malfunction Video

 

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yeyo  (D 32048)

Nov 14, 2007, 12:59 PM
Post #1 of 35 (2837 views)
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Malfunction Video Can't Post

I still dont understand what happened here. Dont know what they ment in the description '...wings jammed into the elevators'. Cant see what caused the canopy to spin, and cant see why the right riser was still attached after cutting away. Maybe suit fabric between the rings?
Very close call and it looks scary, the reserve opened at around 150 feet with line twist.
If someone knows something about this, or if 'Tom' is here, I would like to know.
Great save btw!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaNuPzVXcUI


aerodynamite  (D 2837)

Nov 14, 2007, 1:04 PM
Post #2 of 35 (2830 views)
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Re: [yeyo] Malfunction Video [In reply to] Can't Post

Flip between risers. Hands stuck between front and back riser. I quess the jumper is very confused first. What the hell happened???!!! Nice saveSmile

Remember to close your feet in the opening.


(This post was edited by aerodynamite on Nov 14, 2007, 1:10 PM)


notsane  (D 9465)

Nov 14, 2007, 2:25 PM
Post #3 of 35 (2796 views)
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Wow, look at all the pretty yellow cables ... very festive!


yuri_base

Nov 14, 2007, 6:30 PM
Post #4 of 35 (2738 views)
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Looks like he made front flip thru the risers. Perhaps, lines snagged on feet and threw him up?


sdctlc  (D 16437)

Nov 14, 2007, 7:24 PM
Post #5 of 35 (2727 views)
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He looks to have been kicked pretty far forward and up as you can see his legs/legs wing up towards the canopy, maybe a head low full flight pitch??. He went back down so I don't think it was a flip through but at about the 16 second mark you can see what looks like the right arm and wing stuck in the right riser. If this is the case then it would explain the radical turn to the right and hard time cutting away. The video shows the cut away and the left riser go but hanging from the right riser with the arm at 34 seconds. At 45 seconds you can see the left hand working hard on the right wing release as I imaging the tension would be like a twisted riser with out inserts. From that time to about 1:04 you sporadically see the tries at getting that arm released and at the noted time he looks to go to Belly to earth and then you see the reserve open with twists and the main going away. Twists are out about 1:12 then it looks like he is doing something with the left arm zipper but stops, and releases the breaks at 1:16 with a landing at 1:22. Basically a sub 20 second reserve with the last 9-10 sec being a flying non-twisted reserve.

I am curious as to the main and container system. If there was a RSL it was luckily on the right riser as the outcome could have been much worse if the reserve fired into the still caught main, maybe it would have cleared maybe not. It really makes you think. I dont think an AAD would have helped as it might not have fired under those circumstances. It would depend on the canopy.

The video is not great so it is hard to really see everything but it is a point of view shot. FANTASTIC job of doing the #1 thing you have to do in any jump, NEVER GIVE UP... It really hammers home the thought "it ain't over till the sudden stop at the end!!" I also hope that the video shows that a WS jump is not a basic normal run of the mill jump, stuff can happen and when it does it happens FAST!! I a a firm believer that experience can help. I have no idea if the jumper was one with 100/200/1000 or 2000+ jumps but the more more experience one has the more you have to draw from to identify and react.


The video makes you think! Shocked
Scott C.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Nov 15, 2007, 5:27 AM
Post #6 of 35 (2640 views)
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I think Ive seen this video before, and spoken to the guy who had the incident (if its the same video).

He flipped through his risers on opening, and was pinned in between the rotation in the risers. Jesus-like position. Like two knots tied around his arms, WITH his arms then caught in the wings as well.

He couldnt reach up or down (note to Tony..good luck with your two zippers!), but after some time FINALY managed to get the cables out.

The suit was a GTI. The reason for the frontflip/unstable pool unknown..


pierre3636  (B 2466)

Nov 15, 2007, 6:28 AM
Post #7 of 35 (2624 views)
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well done on holding on to the cables and not trowing them away Tongue

JArno i agree - zips would prob not have worked here...something to think about - then again what are the odds of flipping through your risers on deployment ?


mccordia  (D 94775)

Nov 15, 2007, 7:07 AM
Post #8 of 35 (2612 views)
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In reply to:
JArno i agree - zips would prob not have worked here...something to think about - then again what are the odds of flipping through your risers on deployment ?

Seeing wingsuits have only been around for 8 years, and incidents like this (frontloops before/on opening) have already happened quite a few times...
Just online, Ive so far seen 3 videos of students frontlooping during (practice)pulls, and a video of someone doing a clean (unintentional) frontloop before opening on a BASEjump (didnt locate his pilotchute and looked)

So..the chances of this happening...Id say big enough...


pierre3636  (B 2466)

Nov 15, 2007, 7:40 AM
Post #9 of 35 (2595 views)
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ok so its a danger then


mccordia  (D 94775)

Nov 15, 2007, 8:47 AM
Post #10 of 35 (2566 views)
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In reply to:
ok so its a danger then

Tristan also spoke to the guy and had some additinal info (I spoke to the guy on new-years eve in Castellon, and had done some heavy...eh..celebrating..)
Tristan also spoke to him before me, so he is a lot cooler then me..

In the end, he couldnt get his right arm out, and finaly pulled the reserve with the right wing still attached.

A good working velcro cutaway/release on the arm would have actually made this situation a lot easier to deal with.

Even though it still is a verry, verry unique sitiuation we may never see again, coming back to the 2 zipper system. This one and a few other scenarios (broken arm etc) could render 1 arm useless, would definately mean you are stuck in your armwings..


dragon2  (D 101989)

Nov 15, 2007, 10:10 AM
Post #11 of 35 (2536 views)
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Bet he'd have liked to have a matter-style release for this jump Crazy


mccordia  (D 94775)

Nov 15, 2007, 10:48 AM
Post #12 of 35 (2516 views)
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In reply to:
Bet he'd have liked to have a matter-style release for this jump Crazy

Not really..that would only have been handy if it would have been long enough to reach with his teeth..

Before he got one hand free, aside from a velcro release requiring an upward motion to undo, no single cable release system would have been accesable..


dploi

Nov 15, 2007, 11:59 AM
Post #13 of 35 (2499 views)
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In reply to:
then again what are the odds of flipping through your risers on deployment ?
I've seen it. An almost head down pitch, wingsuit or not, can flip you through. It's more likely on a wingsuit because you reach back with both hands to pitch.


(This post was edited by dploi on Nov 15, 2007, 11:59 AM)


jdatc

Nov 15, 2007, 12:43 PM
Post #14 of 35 (2481 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
It's more likely on a wingsuit because you reach back with both hands to pitch.

Out of curiousity, has anyone ever taught a student just using the base pouch right away, not the BOC?

Or do people think that it would be too much on a 1st flight?

I love the base pouch on my Phantom, won't skydive without using it... But still like the set up of my impact suit for base jumping....


_justin


mccordia  (D 94775)

Nov 15, 2007, 12:58 PM
Post #15 of 35 (2471 views)
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In reply to:
Out of curiousity, has anyone ever taught a student just using the base pouch right away, not the BOC?

I dont..for several reasons.

First Jump Courses

- The BASE pouch is more prone to premature deployments. Especialy when backflying or during high speed tumbles, something quite possible on first jumps (exits)

- Students are slighly more clumbsy sliding through the plane those first few jumps (some people all their jumpsWink) when wearing a wingsuit. Having the pilotchute on such a critical, and easy dislodgable place...I think you are way more likely to find a pilotchute on the floor or whizzing by on exit

- The suit ANYONE flies for a first jump/flight cant in any way have wings that cover the pilotchute or get in the way of the pull

- There are already soo many new things to think of for a first flyer. A new location for the pilotchute is definately not one you want to ad to that.

Outside first jump courses:

Unless you are practicing for basejumps, I generaly am against people using the BASE pouch for anything else but solo jumps.
Especialy when it comes to flocking. On a bump/brush/slide with another jumper, its so easy to rub/pull a pilotchute out of the less tight (designed for a bigger BASE pilotchute) pouch.

No matter how big the wing on any of the current wingsuits, with a proper pull-technique, the wing should not be of any problem.
If fattige and lack of strength is a reason for using the BASE pouch (easyer to pull/use) then you should be pulling a bit higher in general, as that same lack of strength could plague you on a reserve-procedure.

As comes my question...why wont you skydive without using the BASE pouch on a Phantom? The wingsize on a Phantom is in no way a problem?
My guess would be consistency, as you maybe also BASEjump your wingsuit? As that (personaly) is the only valid reason I see for using it...


jdatc

Nov 15, 2007, 1:56 PM
Post #16 of 35 (2450 views)
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Quote:
As comes my question...why wont you skydive without using the BASE pouch on a Phantom? The wingsize on a Phantom is in no way a problem?
My guess would be consistency, as you maybe also BASEjump your wingsuit? As that (personaly) is the only valid reason I see for using it...

Cool. good answers.

As for me;

Actually, I have every intention of base jumping my wingsuit, however when I was in the swiss valley in September, it didn't feel right, so I stuck with my impact suit... it was fun and gave me some good experience.

My next trip in the summer (norway and the valley) I will move up to my phantom if I feel good about it....

In response to the pouch size, I actually use a non-collapsable base pilot chute which is larger (but still appropriatly sized) and am changing out my sabre2 for a flik 182.... I like the base setup for fast openings. It fits pretty well in the pouch, but not super tight nor super loose.

Fatigue is not a problem, never has been. I have done quite a few long flights in a day and while it was a workout, I never failed to find the handle....

Also I don't backfly either, and limit my aerobatics to barrel rolls... I did a few jumps (30 some?, I'd have to look, at work now) without the base pouch and they were fine, but the deployments were no where near as consistant with the base pouch / setup. I like a full flight opening, where i can just flip the thing out.

My next suit I am getting is a V2, and I will use the Base pouch on it as well....

My question is, would you avoid flocking with someone who uses the base pouch? We only have 2-3 wingsuiters here, so it has never been a problem. I love the thing.

_justin


mccordia  (D 94775)

Nov 15, 2007, 2:20 PM
Post #17 of 35 (2435 views)
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In reply to:
My question is, would you avoid flocking with someone who uses the base pouch?

With flocks...be it 2 way or bigger, chances are you will brush past eachother on exit. And if flyers have less experience, then chances are a bump in freefall is also likely to happen.

Someone sliding off/over your back will almost always be in the position the pilotchute in the BASE pouch needs to move to 'break free'.

In a 2 way, its less likely to be a problem.
But if there is a another person flying behind you (or an aircraft rear stabilo on exit) then a canopy coming out could definately ruin your day...

Ive seen video of a jumper getting an unexpected pilotchute (followed by the canopy) in his face (other cause), spitting the canopy in half with his body, but both surviving by some mirracle, and its the most scary thing you'll ever see (but never will hopefully....and for those asking, its not my video so it wont make it online)

Would I avoid jumping in a group if people used the BASE pouch.

I think Id definately recommend the person to switch back to the normal rig-pouch, if there is no clear and ESSENTIAL reason for using the BASE pouch. And depending the experience of a group I probably would avoid doing so.

I think it ads a small, but 100% unneeded danger to a group jump..


jdatc

Nov 15, 2007, 2:39 PM
Post #18 of 35 (2426 views)
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Quote:
Ive seen video of a jumper getting an unexpected pilotchute (followed by the canopy) in his face (other cause), spitting the canopy in half with his body, but both surviving by some mirracle, and its the most scary thing you'll ever see (but never will hopefully....and for those asking, its not my video so it wont make it online)

Hmm.. I think I've seen something close to that....

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/...ion=file&id=6148


Quote:
I think it ads a small, but 100% unneeded danger to a group jump..

Fair enough. If it was an issue to others on a jump, I would switch back. For me it's personal preference to use the pouch.


As a side question, would you agree that the leg pouch is a better option for consistancy, or full flight openings / deployments?

I hadn't though that to some a base pouch is just that, something for base which has little or no use in skydiving....

_justin


mccordia  (D 94775)

Nov 15, 2007, 2:56 PM
Post #19 of 35 (2424 views)
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In reply to:
Hmm.. I think I've seen something close to that....

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/...ion=file&id=6148

Its close...but quite different from the video Im talking about.
The person that had the collision had the complete front of his body, inner part of his legs, groin and neck turn black for almost a full month...
Its a wonder nobody died on that one..

In reply to:
As a side question, would you agree that the leg pouch is a better option for consistancy, or full flight openings / deployments?

I have around 500 wingsuit jumps, and the last 400 or so are all full flight pulls, with the PC at the normal position, and I dont see how a slighly lower or higher position of the pilotchute would change the openings?

I think thats mostly your thoughts, and thus effecting your openings when you try different.

When you pull...and when I pull...explain me the difference from the point where we both have our arm stretched and are letting go of the pilotchute?

Maybe you're ducking of bending more when you reach for the pilot at the normal position when you pull 'normal'?
I dont see any difference in either performance, consistency, heading or speed of opening between the two methods.

The better and slighly easyer reach of a pilotchute on a basejump, and practice for that on a skydive, (to me) seems like the only valid reason to jump the BASEpouch.

In reply to:
I hadn't though that to some a base pouch is just that, something for base which has little or no use in skydiving....

I think thats why its called 'BASE' pouchTongue

Safetywise, when jumping with others...you expose them to an extra risk...do they not mind because they know of the added dangers..though minimal...or dont they mind because they have no clue on why its there?


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Nov 15, 2007, 3:38 PM
Post #20 of 35 (2411 views)
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In reply to:
...He flipped through his risers on opening...

The suit was a GTI. The reason for the frontflip/unstable pull unknown.

I believe it was because, immediately after pitching, he looked under his wing - maybe to see what was happening (possible hesitation?) You could front-loop by doing that...


mccordia  (D 94775)

Nov 15, 2007, 4:07 PM
Post #21 of 35 (2399 views)
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In reply to:
I believe it was because, immediately after pitching, he looked under his wing - maybe to see what was happening (possible hesitation?) You could front-loop by doing that...

If we ever read of someone frontlooping on opening due to massive drag of a dozen big sponsorlogo's on his wingsuit catching wind, we'll also know who's the unlucky guy pretty quickWink


jdatc

Nov 15, 2007, 4:28 PM
Post #22 of 35 (2393 views)
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Quote:

I have around 500 wingsuit jumps, and the last 400 or so are all full flight pulls, with the PC at the normal position, and I dont see how a slighly lower or higher position of the pilotchute would change the openings?

I have about 200, 170ish with the base pilot chute 9' bridle and pouch, only 30 from the boc with a collapsable earlier on..... All but around 10 were full flight pitches. As soon as I changed out my bridle and pilot chute, I stopped jumping the BOC....

Before that around 40 skydives on my impact suit, with better than half full flight deployments. I haven't made a normal skydive since early may, damn you wingsuits!

Quote:
I think thats mostly your thoughts, and thus effecting your openings when you try different.

Possible, and I was using the boc early on. Maybe it was more the bridle and pilot chute change though....

Quote:
When you pull...and when I pull...explain me the difference from the point where we both have our arm stretched and are letting go of the pilotchute?

Good point. You're right.

I was thinking more from the point of going from full flight and finding your pilot chute. Which are you more likely to miss? The possibly obstructed BOC or the leg pouch....

I bet the average jumper will occassionaly miss the boc, if only for a second, where the base pouch you would miss much less... so your average deployment time from starting the reach would be less....

Quote:
Maybe you're ducking of bending more when you reach for the pilot at the normal position when you pull 'normal'?

Probably not.... But then again, what is the sport without video? So I can't say yes or no. I am however a pretty stable jumper at pull time in both sports.

Quote:
I dont see any difference in either performance, consistency, heading or speed of opening between the two methods.

Fair enough. How many jumps have you made with the base pouch vs the boc?

Mine were made early with a different pilot chute and bridle, so maybe that was part of it. But I get zero hesitations now and have a lot more positive openings.

Obviously I am biased to one because the majority of jumps are on it.

Quote:
The better and slighly easyer reach of a pilotchute on a basejump, and practice for that on a skydive, (to me) seems like the only valid reason to jump the BASEpouch.

Or what if you like to decrease the odds of missing the pilot chute, or having any part of your wing block it?

Quote:
Safetywise, when jumping with others...you expose them to an extra risk...do they not mind because they know of the added dangers..though minimal...or dont they mind because they have no clue on why its there

Probably both. More likely the latter. I think it just fits into the whole scheme of risk management.

When you saw the premature happen, was it a base pouch? Also, how many people have had premature extractions with the base pouch that you know of?

_justin


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Nov 15, 2007, 5:07 PM
Post #23 of 35 (2385 views)
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In reply to:
If we ever read of someone frontlooping on opening due to massive drag of a dozen big sponsorlogo's on his wingsuit catching wind, we'll also know who's the unlucky guy pretty quickWink

That'll be you then, caused by the dozen or so Birdman Top Gun logos you have on your rig and wingsuit, as I only have a single streamlined PF logo on the rear-deflector of my wingsuits. Tongue


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Nov 15, 2007, 5:51 PM
Post #24 of 35 (2370 views)
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Re: [jdatc] Malfunction Video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
how many people have had premature extractions with the base pouch that you know of?

Several. In fact there is video of it happening to two jumpers here.


Use the right pouch for the environment in which it is intended. The BASE pouch is designed for use in a BASE environment where missing the handle the first time could be very bad. It isn't intended for use on skydives where there are more variables that can contribute to a premature opening. I understand some people go from one to another and prefer to have the handle in the same spot(funny that I have yet to see a BASE jumper with a pouch on a pair of tracking pants because they also BASE a wingsuit. Their PCs are always in a BOC.Wink). However, I can also say that I have yet to see a PC in a BASE pouch on a skydive either on the ground or in the aircraft that didn't look like it was at risk of falling out or coming out prematurely on exit. Plenty of people jump the BASE pouch on skydives without issue but why put yourself or others at risk unnecessarily if you don't have to? There is no benefit to using a BASE pouch on a skydive but there is on a BASE jump,use accordingly.


chrisgray  (D License)

Nov 15, 2007, 8:32 PM
Post #25 of 35 (2343 views)
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I have to agree with Jarno and Campos.

After personally seeing a premie of another jumper using a BASE Pouch right after exit happen earlier this summer....I have to agree.

BOC is for skydiving
BASE Pouch is for BASE


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