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RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it?

 

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Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Nov 5, 2007, 1:31 PM
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RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? Can't Post

Hey everyone!

When you see someone downsizing agressively, do you consider what that person's mentality for doing so is? Do you care, do you coach them???

In the other thread that shares a similar title, people are ragging me for jumping a 105. Nearly none of them/you know how many jumps I have. Does this makes any sense? I agree it is an aggressive canopy for my skill level, but so was the Spectre 135 on my 32nd and beyond jumps.

I'm getting ragged about the 2 links I posted to my first 3 landings on a newly downsized canopy. No one will give details, but apparently the 3 stand up landings were just atrocious according to them/you. I have admitted what I feel was wrong with the landings, but I find it funny that the same people who will tell someone else who landed their 280 sliding in on their 50th jump, that they made a better landing than me standing a 105 on my first few jumps on it. I'm just confused....

Anyone?


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Nov 5, 2007, 1:32 PM)


jakee  (C License)

Nov 5, 2007, 1:50 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

How many jumps do you have?

And sliding in on your knees isn't a stand upWink


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Nov 5, 2007, 1:59 PM
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Re: [jakee] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey,

If it's ok, I want to leave jump numbers out of this...for now. I will post it later, but for now, I'm curious about the horrible landings. I want it to be a bit general. "Jumper X with 50 jumps shows up at the DZ with a canopy you feel is a bit too aggressive for his/her experience".

As for the knee slide, guilty as charged. I was sliding on my feet and dropped a knee for balance at the end. Nonetheless, I have admitted to my "first" jump on a 105 being less than "perfect".

In the other thread, I explained everything I though was wrong about the landings.


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Nov 5, 2007, 2:01 PM)


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Nov 5, 2007, 2:27 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In the other thread that shares a similar title, people are ragging me for jumping a 105. Nearly none of them/you know how many jumps I have. Does this makes any sense? I agree it is an aggressive canopy for my skill level, but so was the Spectre 135 on my 32nd and beyond jumps.

So, let me see if I got this right... You're admittedly being overly-aggressive downsizing. You ask for input and when it's input you don't like; you post about what they had to say and ask for our analysis of the situation in a totally different thread?

The solution is simple, Brother. Stop asking for people's opinions if you're just going to do it your way anyway. Go do it your way and leave it off the boards. Problem solved.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Nov 5, 2007, 2:48 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When you see someone downsizing agressively, do you consider what that person's mentality for doing so is? Do you care, do you coach them???

I know why people downsize too soon. They want to go faster. There's nothing wrong with wanting to go faster. What's wrong is skipping the part where they learn the muscle memory, sight pictures and judgment that it takes to go faster without hurting themselves and/or others.

Do I care? Yeah, I do, for a number of reasons. I'd rather not have to land in the south field because there's an ambulance and a fire truck in the main landing area. I'd rather not have to listen to someone whining about not being able to jump because they screwed up and hurt themselves when they likely would have walked away from the same mistake made under a less aggressive canopy. I'd rather not have to attend the funeral of someone who might be alive had they not skipped the parts mentioned above. And I'd really rather not see one of my friends get hurt or die because some guy decided that he was ready for a canopy type/size without having developed the basic skills necessary to be safe in the air with other people at the higher airspeeds that smaller/more aggressive canopies produce.

Do I coach people? Not really. I don't know enough to really coach anybody other than very new jumpers but after watching/videoing several thousand landings (swoop and non-swoop), many with my s/o-canopy coach standing next to me providing commentary, I know enough to know when a landing is good or not.

If someone asks, I'll happily show them the video if I got it or tell them what I thought I saw. Most times I know that I don't know enough to offer any advice; that's when I'll suggest they talk to one of the people who do know.

I'll also offer to show the video to someone if I think there is something there they can learn from. Whether I show them video of their landings in the future depends a lot on their attitude. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who wants to learn and improve and someone who is sure they already have it all figured out.

In reply to:
No one will give details, but apparently the 3 stand up landings were just atrocious according to them/you.

From what I saw, you stalled the canopy on your first landing, you flared unevenly on the other two and you were reaching with your foot on the last one. These are things that you're better off learning not to do on a larger, more forgiving canopy.

Just because you pulled it off (ie stood it up) doesn't make it a good landing. I've got video of plenty of people who stood up landings where they didn't finish the flare - that's not a good landing, thats a lucky they can run fast landing. What makes a good landing is an even flare at the right time and the right speed and to the right point with a solid finish that has the feet meeting the ground with zero downward momentum and the slowest possible forward speed for that canopy/wingloading/wind speed. Whether the jumper stays on their feet or not after that is irrelevant.


(This post was edited by skybytch on Nov 5, 2007, 2:56 PM)


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Nov 5, 2007, 2:54 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha, this is awesome!

Step 1: Post in thread to clear things up from an inaccurate post about yourself.
Step 2: Ask for questions about that post to be taken into PM
Step 3: Have DZ.com users keep pissing on me in that same thread
Step 4: Get blamed for hijacking (Hmm...guess I had my PM setting turned off)
Step 5: Create separate thread to prevent further hijacking
Step 6: Get pissed on for creating redundant thread?

Hmm, now I'm confused. From these 2 threads I've learnt this so far:
-Don't post in another thread and don't create a new one. Ok...but how do these forum thingys work again?
-Stand up landings are NOT good landings. I'll have to go and set my instructors straight...telling me all the wrong info....

Why can't the people on DZ.com have a normal conversation. Everyone resorts to shitting on someone. Sure hope you feel good about yourself after a long hard night on DZ.com.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Nov 5, 2007, 2:54 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The solution is simple, Brother. Stop asking for people's opinions if you're just going to do it your way anyway. Go do it your way and leave it off the boards. Problem solved.

Chris, in this thread just over a year ago, you were irritated with people giving you grief about jumping a 135@40 jumps, now you're somewhat wondering the same thing about you jumping a 105 @ around 150 jumps. With an exit weight (If I recall correctly) of around 130lbs, is your S&TA is OK with you jumping a high performance 105 canopy?
Moving from the Manta 288 down to a 135 Spectre in about a year isn't anywhere near as aggressive as going from the 135 Spectre to a 105 Cobalt, even though you're a very lightweight guy.
God, what I'd give to weigh 115 again.Laugh


jheadley  (D 28710)

Nov 5, 2007, 2:59 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Jumper X with 50 jumps shows up at the DZ with a canopy you feel is a bit too aggressive for his/her experience".

When a jumper with 30 jumps showed up at the dz early this year with a Cobalt 170, I told him I'd take it and find someone to trade with for a more suitable parachute for him. It ended up being a real PITA but I'm still glad I did it.


lilchief  (D 78149)

Nov 5, 2007, 3:00 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Disclaimer: This post is long, but itís a matter Iím burning for, and it takes a long time explaining it.

They are doing it because they get scared and pissed of your "recklessness", but also many have seen people go in, and it freaks us out. I don't blame them..

BUT(!) I'm one of those rapid downsizeing persons my self, and that's just who I am. I've done almost 400 jumps in the two last seasons, and went down from a Pilot 210(160-ish jumps) to a Stiletto 170(140-is jumps, 122 in two weeks) to a Stiletto 135 (70 jumps) to a Samurai 136(15 jumps) in two years. Iíve made a total of 400 hookturns out of 448 jumps, from cautious double at high altitude to 360ís. There have been 4 times where I've come low on a hook turn. The first one happened when I was experimenting with 270ís after some 300 180's on the pilot and stiletto 170. The three other came rather rapidly after each other on the stiletto 135. The first two I was not aware of that harness input was more noticeable during a hookturn then under normal flight. The last one was my own fault, because I was to excited after getting my new Ouragan suit. The only reason I didn't dig in was because I've watched numerous hookturns gone bad on Skydyvingmovies. When I started getting low, I recalled the image from all of those movies, stayed calm, dug out and it worked for me. That plus Brian Germains Canopy course on an early stage (150 jumps). If you start your opinion with something like: ďwhy are you downsizeing, you donít have the jump numbersĒ, youíre already on the wrong track and he/she will less likely listen to you. If you donít understand their question, let others answer it.

I know that there are a lot of people here on DZ.com that ALWAYS tell you: ďdonít downsize until you can land on the dime while spiraling down from 2000f crosswinds in a hurricane under your canopyĒ. To me that's all wrong! As a general precaution, YES, but don't go slamming it on everyone that posts here. There are S&T's, DZO, instructors, friends, family and bypassers at the DZ where the skydiver jumps. They know the person, they've seen his/hers skills. Don't you think that they will stop him/her, or restrict him/her if he/her goes out of line? And if he/she goes out of line, sit down and talked WITH him, donít just blur your hysteria to him. Make him/her tell you his version of the error, explain him yours and support him/her to make the right call the next lading. If itís really bad, help him/her with video and feedback. In the end, WE as a community will benefit of it, so please donít just cut him/her off with yelling. And yes, there are those who shouldnít be skydivers, but at least try getting on his/hers level and talk to the person before sending him/her off. Then at least youíve tried.

When posting here the person seeks answers to HIS question, not to get hammered down buy the regular stone of fear that you've heard some experienced skydiver tell people on your DZ. What worked for you is not likely what helps mr/ms Curious. In some cases it doesn't matter what kind of canopy you've got over you, it may still kill you, or seriously hurt you. So big isnít the one-answer-fits-all. But Iím a big fan of encouraging them to keep their current canopy for as long as possible and inspire them to really try it out. Just donít ďcommandĒ them.

When it comes to swooping, the only way to learn is trial and error. Either you get through your first 1000 landings fine, or you donít. Even the cautious skydiver gets hurt or killed, we all know that. That takes the air out of the everlasting argument of ďdonít do swooping until you get x-hundred skydivesĒ. I donít need to use me as an example, because there are many others out there that have done it and donít have any titanium. Numbers alone here on dz.com count for nothing, peoples skills does. And we canít see them here can we?

Now, if you want to fly the super-duper hardcore swoopingmachine are you really prepared to take the risk? No-one may stop you from secretly install a smaller faster canopy and then jump it. You may even get some 20 jumps before someone notices it. You may even get to brag to your other dumass friends that thinks this shit is cool. But what happens when you get linetwist because of poor bodyposition? All of a sudden you realize how fast 2-3000f may disappear and mother earth is coming after you. Or you may not see it at all until your too low.. how about it? Are you prepared to hang under a canopy that behaves so radically that youíre shivering from fear and hope that this trip is over soon, but still youíre too scared to land. Do want to be out of the sport for a year in shame for not paying proper attention while recovering from your multiple injury? Donít think that my path is our path. Youíll have to find your own, take the risk, face the consequences both physically and socially and see what happens. But donít think weíll wipe your tears if you cross us.

Why do you want to downsize? You alone know the answer to it and do the following action, not us.

But we will still be there to pick you up when you dig in and hold your hand until you get picked up by medís or your life fades away. But itís not worth it.


edit: Skybytch is actually trying to reach out to you it seems. Don't cut her off, se leves you good guidelines.


(This post was edited by lilchief on Nov 5, 2007, 3:08 PM)


jakee  (C License)

Nov 5, 2007, 3:00 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why can't the people on DZ.com have a normal conversation.

Possibly because almost everyone on the internet is more safety conscious than they are in real life.

More probably because you've come across as being very defensive ever since your first post on the issue. When someone is very defensive it sets off red flags in peoples brains. It suggests that the person being defensive knows that they're doing something they shouldn't be.

Right or wrong, that's how it is.Wink


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Nov 5, 2007, 3:16 PM
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Re: [jakee] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, looks like the thread is turning around to be more constructive.

Thank you! I seriously do appreciate it.

Skybytch had it dialed in when she said people downsize to go faster. That's me 100% But...I don't want to go faster so I can learn to swoop or anything like that. Swooping interests me as much as Base jumping. I am scared shitless to basejump. Lots of my friends with many less jumps are looking to Base jumping...I'm not. Same for swooping. I don't want to swoop. The risks are too high for me. Having been there when someone botched a swoop was a big eye opener for me. I don't want to swoop, but am I not allowed to go faster without having to swoop?

I wanted to downsize so I can go faster, which in turn gives me a better flare without "needing" to swoop. I think that the flare is the #1 selling point on a canopy, right on line with openings. That's why I chose the canopy I did. Cobalts have great openings as far as I've read and experienced, they fly very nice, and have a great flare. So, I've done it partially for my own safety (nice openings and powerful flare), with the understanding that I've increased my risk in another area.



DSE:
Most of the numbers you posted are accurate. You are correct, I went through this with the 135 as well. My S&TA has seen me jump the canopy and if you listen carefully in one of the videos, you can hear the DZO saying "good job" after I landed. I didn't just run out buy the canopy and expect to jump it. I put a lot of research into the type of canopy I was looking for, characteristics, opening, flare etc... I passed everything by my instructors before I did anything.


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Nov 5, 2007, 3:25 PM)


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Nov 5, 2007, 3:25 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I watched the videos from the other thread and agree with the comments everyone else made about the stall, the uneven flare, the foot reaching. All normal newbie mistakes. What concerns me is that you didn't acknowledge that you are making newer jumper mistakes on a canopy and wing loading that are not forgiving for mistakes, and instead blamed the wind conditions and new canopy for the landings.

Funny, I made my first jump on my new canopy (Sabre2 135) Saturday in no wind conditions and wearing 6 lbs of lead (Big AFF student). My landing didn't look anything like yours, it was absolutely beautiful. The next 6 jumps were exactly the same, despite turbulance and shifting wind conditions the remainder of the day.

You said that you wanted to downsize to go faster and get a better flare... honestly, if you can't flare and get consistently pristine landings on a bigger canopy, you have no reason to go to a smaller, more aggressive, less forgiving canopy. Uneven flares, late flares, reaching a foot, are all things that newer jumpers tend to do... and may be the reasons you don't get the flare you want out of a bigger canopy.

None of us would bother writing to you if we didn't care. I've seen enough people get hurt. I became an instructor so I could do whatever I could to keep more people from getting hurt. I also know that nothing I say (or anyone else) will influence you to put your 105 on a shelf for a while, until you are 100% ready for it.... but I have to try.

I hope you're never in the incidents forums, but if/when you are, I hope you're man enough to look back on all your posts and realize just how much you rushed it unnecessarily, maybe teach someone just like you a thing or two and save them the hardware.


beowulf  (C License)

Nov 5, 2007, 3:26 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Get canopy coaching. You don't have to have a fast canopy to get a good or better flare. I have heard other people say they downsized so they could have a canopy that is easier to land. That just tells me they don't know how to land their canopy to begin with and need to spend more time on their slower canopy.

Quote:
So, I've done it partially for my own safety (nice openings and powerful flare), with the understanding that I've increased my risk in another area.

I don't think you have increased any safety aspect by down sizing and going to a higher performance canopy.


(This post was edited by beowulf on Nov 5, 2007, 3:29 PM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Nov 5, 2007, 3:33 PM
Post #14 of 80 (2991 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you listen carefully in one of the videos, you can hear the DZO saying "good job" after I landed.

Which just goes to show you that even people we assume know something sometimes don't know as much as we'd like to think they do.

Quoting from my previous post in this thread -

Quote:
Just because you pulled it off (ie stood it up) doesn't make it a good landing. I've got video of plenty of people who stood up landings where they didn't finish the flare - that's not a good landing, thats a lucky they can run fast landing. What makes a good landing is an even flare at the right time and the right speed and to the right point with a solid finish that has the feet meeting the ground with zero downward momentum and the slowest possible forward speed for that canopy/wingloading/wind speed. Whether the jumper stays on their feet or not after that is irrelevant.


jakee  (C License)

Nov 5, 2007, 3:37 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
don't want to swoop, but am I not allowed to go faster without having to swoop?

Yes, you are - but just because you don't want to swoop it doesn't make the canopy itself any less inherently dangerous. One day you will be close to the ground and something unexpected will happen. Your reaction to that unexpected thing will need to be much, much more skillful on the 105 than on a larger canopy. A quick trawl through the incidents forum will reveal no shortage of non-swooping, 'highly conservative', much more experienced skydivers than you or me who still managed to accidentally hook themselves in.


Oh, and maybe try engaging the people on the other thread (highly experienced canopy pilots) who were critical of your landings. Brushing them off with "But I stood it up" isn't very constructive from your side. You should know that standing it up is not the only criteria of a safe, skillful landing on the type of canopy that you're jumping.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Nov 5, 2007, 3:52 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

>So, I've done it partially for my own safety (nice openings and powerful
>flare), with the understanding that I've increased my risk in another area.

If you are really thinking you downsized to increase your landing safety overall (or even partially) I think you have misjudged the potential risks and benefits of the smaller canopy.

Any canopy can be made to open at any speed you desire with slider mods. You can get a Spectre to slam you with a spider slider, and you can get a Sabre 1 to snivel for 1000 feet with a dome or pocket slider. Small canopy does not equal faster (or slower) openings.

A powerful flare can cause more problems than it solves. You can now balloon the canopy, stall it, and turn it in the flare accidentally much more easily - and indeed that video shows some of those problems. To me, hearing "I got a smaller canopy so I could land it better" is a HUGE warning sign, somewhat akin to someone feeling safer doing 20-ways instead of 2-ways because they "have more people to hold onto". In actuality, of course, it is critical that they master skills learned doing 2-ways BEFORE they start doing 20-ways, even if they find it easier to hold on to a big base.

Different canopies present different challenges. Learn to land a bigger canopy well, and the smaller canopy will be easier to master. Skip the bigger canopy (or spend less time on it) and there are things you will never learn on the smaller canopy because you will spend your time being "really careful." These are often critical skills that you'll just plain miss.

As other people have mentioned, one way to get these skills back is via an instructional course like Scott Miller's. They are invaluable for learning basic landing skills at your level.

I know you don't want to hear some of this stuff, but I have seen this thought process (and the end result) several times before. Don't get me wrong; you probably have a 90% chance of avoiding major injury or death if you jump small canopies at your level. It's not the option I'd recommend to my students though.


Ether

Nov 5, 2007, 4:00 PM
Post #17 of 80 (2947 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the other thread that shares a similar title, people are ragging me for jumping a 105. Nearly none of them/you know how many jumps I have. Does this makes any sense? I agree it is an aggressive canopy for my skill level, but so was the Spectre 135 on my 32nd and beyond jumps.

Perhaps it is because it is obvious how many (few) jumps you have, by your attitude towards your safety, your instruction, and the concern that everyone is showing.

If you're just going to argue with everyone who posts in these threads, why do you bother acting like you want advice? It's people like you who are giving new jumpers a bad name and make our instructors think that none of us have any interest in safety. Please knock it off!!!


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 5, 2007, 4:05 PM
Post #18 of 80 (2938 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Downsizing is the perfect dz.com topic to discuss when one is bored!

Has Chris been defensive?:

Probably. But he seems to be getting thick skinned and thus inoculated to the dropzone.com way of doing things. Everyone has to take their lumps as soon as they post here.

Some people don't like seeing others downsize rapidly as they'll have to watch carnage later:

Don't worry about it, Chris, that's just for big turbine drop zones, where it would be depressing to see people colliding and biffing in all the time. At a smaller dropzone, really serious injuries are rare, although there is the occasional sacrifice to the swoop gods. Plus nobody worries about you potentially cutting off 20 other people at once. Keep your little home DZ safe. If you want to create carnage, head to some big US drop zone for the holidays and do it there! :-)

Do I care or coach those trying to downsize quickly?

Sure. Even if I'm not too tough on people trying to downsize, I want them to really understand the risks. It's not enough to say "you'll be dangerous". That just makes people defensive. One has to help people understand specific reasons why the risks may be going up.

Chris wrote:
In reply to:
but I find it funny that the same people who will tell someone else who landed their 280 sliding in on their 50th jump, that they made a better landing than me standing a 105 on my first few jumps on it.

I think the point is that being unskilled or a dumbass under a lightly loaded and large canopy is less likely to result in serious injury. But it is a good point -- even those on big canopies, who plan to downsize slowly, shouldn't be complacement about their skills and should improve for their own future benefit. So even if "you are surviving your first landings on the 105", I'd have no problem choosing to criticize every detail of them.

Face it, if one is flying a hotter canopy, especially if one is not really proficient with it, the risk of landing injury is higher. Maybe not much when one is "being careful" with straight in landings. It is the off-DZ landing in bad terrain, or the emergency maneuvering at low altitude to avoid another jumper, where the risk is higher. One simply has to accept that if one is going to play that game.

For myself, I'm so glad that there was no anti-downsizing agitating back when zero-p was new. I got to fly a Jonathan 92 a few times (at 1.8 WL) when I had 200 jumps, when I usually just jumped accuracy canopies. Not everyone sticks around long enough in the sport, and makes enough jumps per year, to satisfy those who want you to downsize through half a dozen canopies doing 500 jumps on each one...

It would be nice to make people get excited about their existing bigger canopy. The only cure for boredom shouldn't be downsizing. Many need to find something to focus on: They could do those different landing exercises that are recommended before downsizing, and focus on flying their canopy consistently and to an accurate, well flared landing.


Nightingale  (B 26984)

Nov 5, 2007, 4:14 PM
Post #19 of 80 (2925 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Anyone?

On the internet, you get to know skydivers way beyond your own dropzone and have a greater ability to learn from the mistakes of others. We've seen/heard about too damn many people getting hurt or dying because they were jumping canopies beyond their skill level.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 5, 2007, 4:18 PM
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Those videos in the other thread did not look good.

Your unwillingness to answer the questions about your jump numbers does not look good.

Your thinking that 'some people' are just better at this than 'others' is not good.

None of this is good, and you're the one who's going to take to the hit when things go wrong.


I'm surprised you would pulbicly get involved in this line of conversation. I know you've seen the revival of a thread where a guy said the same crap you're saying, then broke or killed himself under canopy.

I mean it's one thing to take a calculated risk, it's another to stand up and shout, "Hey look at me! I'm taking a chance you all think I shouldn't! My reasons are no different then those who came before me!"


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Nov 5, 2007, 4:29 PM
Post #21 of 80 (2897 views)
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Re: [davelepka] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter:
I agree mostly with your post. We do have less to think/worry about at smaller dz's where there might be up to 5 canopies in the air with you. I've jumped from an Otter about 20-25 times and there is much more traffic and much more to be attentive of.

As far as the risk of me getting cut off and having to do an avoidance maneuver, well, it's difficult to prepare yourself for the real thing. It's happened to me. I got cut off on final when I jumped from the otter. Another jumper landed 90 degrees to the line of final and cut of about 5 people. I had to take evasive measures to avoid a colloision at 60 feet, it worked ok. I know I'm putting myself in more risk if I jump a smaller canopy and have to do this.

davelepka:
So you mean I should hide and just not tell anyone I'm doing it?

Why not be open? Why should I be afraid to be honest? Are you saying that you would just hide if you did something risky?

So, the landings were not good...ok, so be it. Care to elaborate? This goes all the way back to my first post.


grimmie  (D 18890)

Nov 5, 2007, 4:33 PM
Post #22 of 80 (2892 views)
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Re: [Nightingale] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doing a nice hook and swoop on your new canopy is going to be not much of a big deal...until you have an off site landing.
All of that wingloading, 270 hook,long swoops and other blah, blah, blah advice doesn't mean crap once you find yourself at 2,000ft a long way from a DZ. You need to be able to land your new parachute in an apple orchard, city street, backyard, baseball diamond or other such areas. All are places I have landed, like most long time jumpers, at many different DZ's.
GPS ALWAYS insures a good spot.Tongue
Good Luck.


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Nov 5, 2007, 4:35 PM
Post #23 of 80 (2887 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

After student status, I jumped a square 170 for a bunch of jumps and thought I did pretty well with it. I moved to a square 150 and did well with that too for a bunch more jumps. When I got a square 135, I got some comments about being careful from people at the DZ, but I did pretty well with it. After that, I got an elliptical 129 and did O.K., although I didnít push it to high performance limits. After a while, I downsized to an elliptical 120, I was pushed into doing high performance maneuvers weather I like it or not. With an exit weight of about 260 pounds and cameras on my head, I survived a couple of hundred jumps and some perilous off landings. Many of my landings were so fast, that the world was a blur and survival became my only goal. Also, I found that I was having a lot of line twists on opening. I got used to people "talking to me" about safety. With my last cutaway on one of those twisted openings, I got rid of that canopy. At fifty years old, I lost 30 pounds and upsized to an elliptical 150. With about 500 jumps on the 150, I am learning the art of flying the canopy. I am conservative and safe and I am enjoying jumping more than ever. I can also master cool maneuvers in the air better than I did on the small canopies. Had I stayed with the higher wing loading, I truly believe I would have been injured. I am also considering upsizing again within the next five years or so. For me, when appropriate, upsizing is really cool, and ambulances arenít.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 5, 2007, 4:46 PM
Post #24 of 80 (2864 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Those of us who've accumulated some experience, both in life and in this sport, develop a sort of crystal ball which helps us "see" the future, and with surprising accuracy. As much as it can be a blessing, it can also be a curse, for the images can sometimes be troubling.

It's troubling, but also very telling, that you repeatedly refuse to tell us how many jumps you have. We understand why you're doing it, but we also know what it tells us about the way you think. (And I say that clinically, not judgmentally.) And the things you say, especially when responding to people, are also very troubling, and very telling; for we've heard the same thing, the same way, from enough people who've come before you - too many of whom have come to grief or had VERY close calls - that it sets off our crystal balls.

Please take a look at this thread, especially remarks by this friend of ours:

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1106024#1106024

We discuss him further in this thread:

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=2347085#2347085


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 5, 2007, 4:48 PM
Post #25 of 80 (2861 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] RE: Rapid Downsizing - Why do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So you mean I should hide and just not tell anyone I'm doing it?

If you whack yourself in one day, you're going to look like a douche.

When somebody remembers this thread, and bumps back up to the top, you'll look like a bigger douche.

I guess it's your call, but one level of douchie-ness is all I would want if I was facing some 'down time'.

Quote:
So, the landings were not good...ok, so be it. Care to elaborate?

Others have already mentioned what wasn't good about them. You had a 'reason', more of what I call an 'excuse', for everything they had to say.

Am I to believe that this time will be different. Maybe my words will get through where others have failed?

I have as much faith in that as I do that you'll be 'fine' and that you are a 'good pilot'.

(Note that my lack of actaully trying to debrief your videos is an indicator that I have very little faith that you will actually listen)


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