Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Injuries?

 


apoil  (D License)

Dec 5, 2002, 8:18 AM
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Injuries? Can't Post

ok, here's an interesting topic.

I was told once "If you hook, eventually you will bounce"
It wasn't an admonition like "you will one day die doing this", but he was basically saying that by pushing the performance envelope, you run the very real possibility of screwing up and getting badly hurt. The guy who said it was recovering from a broken pelvis at the time.

Also, is seems many a great canopy pilot has spent some time lining the pockets of orthopedic surgeons.

So the question is, how many high performance canopy pilots out there have NOT suffered any injuries?

Clearly understanding and education have permeated such that the dreaded "hook turn" of 5 years ago is slightly passe. People now understand much more about how to do performance landings in a much more safe and controlled way, but there are still risks.

Sometimes I wonder if I am playing russian roullette every time I land so I'm looking for examples from canopy pilots who have managed to avoid injury over thousands of jumps.


bobsoutar  (D 5310)

Dec 5, 2002, 10:00 AM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't have to push the envelope on every jump. If the picture isn't right then don't take chances.

I managed over 1,000 jumps without injury and then sprained my ankle which put me out of action for 3 days - not a hook but a straight-in off landing at Eloy where I was forced to take a downwind landing (thorn bushes right & left and a plane on finals behind me).


Watcher  (D 24876)

Dec 5, 2002, 10:31 AM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hurt left ankle twice, Ace bandage and I was pretty OK in a week, walked on it the whole week.

Jonathan


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Dec 5, 2002, 11:04 AM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have yet to hurt myself doing hook turns. I broke a tail bone once on a straight in landing. Lost a toggle. Bounced pretty good once on a straight in landing at night but limped away. Had some close calls during HP landings but have managed to not hurt myself so far. *Knock vigorously on wood* Of course...I only have 311 jumps....Wink


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 5, 2002, 11:33 AM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

Back in the late 80's, it was common to toggle whip and then later, riser snap. It was also stylish to swoop with both feet under you and drag both sets of toes. Problem was, if you didn't get around the corner you were going to pile both knees straight into the ground. I saw plenty of double femurs back then. The worse I ever did, though, was have to dig out of a low turn under my Excal on a video jump during a Carolina Council meet. I was wearing Tevas and, being stylish, had both feet under me. I lost most of the skin on tops of all of my toes. It hurt like a motherfucker for quite some time, seeing as how I had to wear army boots all week long.Crazy.

I skipped off the ground (and water) a fair number of times since then, but it wasn't until last year that I ever broke a bone. The worst thing was breaking two fingers on my dominant right hand practicing for the PPPB Quincy swoop meet. I still jumped all week long with the fingers taped, but let me tell you, it sucked.

A sane canopy progression and easing into the more advanced maneuvers will keep you out of the hurt locker. If nothing else, it sure will increase your chance of not biffing.

Chuck


flyhi  (D License)

Dec 5, 2002, 11:41 AM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

The worst I ever did was the dumbest I ever did. Did a 180 riser turn and saw I was coming out of it high, so I grabbed double fronts to keep the dive going. I erred when I failed to release the double fronts and hit the ground like that. Luckily, a large, bearded, Eric-person (Chuck knows him) was there to offer his condolences; "What the fuck are you doing?" were his exact words, I believe. But I know they were said with nothing but love.

Knocked the wind out of me, pulled a muscle in my leg (never figured that one out), and ripped my jumpsuit. No more jumping that day, but was at it again the next week.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 5, 2002, 1:30 PM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

I tore my MCL and did some ACL damage dragging a foot on landing. Learned my lesson there.


skymedic  (C 33561)

Dec 5, 2002, 2:36 PM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I skipped off the ground (and water) a fair number of times since then, but it wasn't until last year that I ever broke a bone. The worst thing was breaking two fingers on my dominant right hand practicing for the PPPB Quincy swoop meet. I still jumped all week long with the fingers taped, but let me tell you, it sucked.
I would of thought breaking your ASS on your wife's canopy would be the worst injury that ya had swoopin.....


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 5, 2002, 3:43 PM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

3154 jumps
1495 on canopies 100sq ft or less (1.87 wing loading)
831 on an FX-70 at 2.6:1
548 on an VX-60 at 3.1:1
0 injuries

Hook


ChileRelleno  (D 24868)

Dec 5, 2002, 7:47 PM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm curious, your question was "how many have not had injuries?" and 98% of your replies are people telling you about their injuries.
I don't get itWink?


Watcher  (D 24876)

Dec 6, 2002, 6:19 AM
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Re: [ChileRelleno] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

We just showed that the severity of the injuries can be minor, a hurt ankle, couple of cuts, etx simply means that swooping can be dangerous but the injuries are minor enough to be almost trivial for some of us. I guess kinda proves that swooping can be done and done well without a great amount of unnecessary risk if you are careful.

But there are those that I have seen pound in an be taken out in the ambulance. Constant vigilance and awareness of where you are and what the canopy is doing.

<shurgs>
Just my opinion and perspective.

Jonathan


Designer  (D 5771)

Dec 8, 2002, 3:02 PM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that a hospital injury?My last hook turn was a bruised kidney.2 soft butt strikes also happened over a period of about 10 years.i,D SAY THAT WAS PRETTY GOOD?Still.I have never hooked my present canopy or any "Jedei" for that matter.Made the choice to stop what might hurt me worse.


hookitt  (D License)

Dec 16, 2002, 2:37 AM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sometimes I wonder if I am playing russian roullette every time I land so I'm looking for examples from canopy pilots who have managed to avoid injury over thousands of jumps.

Are you playingRussian Roullette? (sorry late in posting any thing) There are some very good canopy pilots in florida. If at all possible get some pointers at the source. Video your landings and Disect them with some 5000 jump competition swooper or the like.

I have 4400ish jumps and by chance I didn't hurt myself in the beginning. I backed off after nearly Bouncing and decided that the methodical approach to swooping was in order. Barring Mother nature Dumb luck structural failure, I definately am not playing Roullette while landing. That still doesn't mean I won't fu(k up due to being Human.

Basically if it feels like you are pushing it too far and taking a chance, then it's a good indication that you may be. If needed take a step back.

C-ya


AiRpollUtiOn  (D 42)

Dec 17, 2002, 2:23 AM
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Re: [apoil] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

Something you all know,

if you know the guys at your DZ, you just know who's going to get hurt.

There's this guy I know flying a contrail 120 @ about 1.7, In his last say 75 jumps (all estimates) I've seen him hit the ground knees first quite hard, then pull up and standing it up after 6 times (quite some average huh...).
Everyone knows some bad s@#& is going to happen, in fact he is the only one that thinks he's an ace canopy pilot.

I don't have a lot of jumps under my belt, and I am constantly front risering (started at about 100 jumps on sabre 150 which I sold 20 jumps later because it was killing my back). When I had about 30 jumps on my Stiletto 150 (1.3 depending...) the exact same thing happened to me, little miscalculation, knees hitting first before I could create enough lift to pull up again and "land" on my feet.
This experience made me humble, and I've been a lot safer, if the situation looks only 99% OK, I'll go straight in.

Before this incident people looked at me exactly the same as they did at this other guy, and I didn't care.
Now this has changed.

After all, if you think of it it's just a piece of cloth designed to get you on the ground safely.

To all you + 1000 jumpers this might be an evident yadiyadi post, but for the newer guys to the sport: better safe than sorry.

By the way, get coaching!


jumperconway  (D 24335)

Dec 17, 2002, 2:16 PM
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Re: [AiRpollUtiOn] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Something you all know,

if you know the guys at your DZ, you just know who's going to get hurt.

There's this guy I know flying a contrail 120 @ about 1.7, In his last say 75 jumps (all estimates) I've seen him hit the ground knees first quite hard, then pull up and standing it up after 6 times (quite some average huh...).
Everyone knows some bad s@#& is going to happen, in fact he is the only one that thinks he's an ace canopy pilot.

We had a guy at our DZ this year that everyone knew would eventually get hurt. I think he was jumping a 150 Saber for a while, not standing it up often loaded maybe 1.4/1. He found a used 135 (I think) Stilleto and after a few jumps was asking some shit-hot swoopers about hook turns. They all told him the same thing, learn to land it straight in well first, then progress to double fronts before you even think of hooking. He didn't listenUnsure. A couple of jumps later, he told someone on the ground to watch, he was going to do the hook from hell! He started a 180 hook a little over hanger high then went d-fronts and planted himself. The indentation in the ground was, toes,knees, elbows, face with camera! He still had his hands in the dive loops. After he hit, he bounced forward about 35'. The video showed his hands pull down on the dive loops before impact. Still coherent, he was Life-Flighted to the hospital. One month later his family decided to pull the plugUnsure. He was semi- conscious for a couple of weeks before the infection set in and he went back into a coma.
Before you start racing cars, you learn to drive a regular car well. Before you drive race cars you soak up all the knowledge you can from the best available coaches and take small steps to prepare. Flying your canopy is very much the same. Just because you drive a fast car does'nt mean that inherently you will die doing it, but the faster you drive it your odds go up. Hook turns get a bad rep from people that push beyond their skill level or better yet their intelligence level. Where I was hookig my X-Fire 99 from, my Xaos 85 will bury me. Knowing what your canopy can and cannot do will keep you alive. Pulling out to save your ass might screw up your swoop but keeps you alive to practice again. Fear keeps us alive.

My .02
Conway 1097Unsure


AiRpollUtiOn  (D 42)

Dec 18, 2002, 4:24 AM
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Re: [jumperconway] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's just sad...


Ron

Dec 18, 2002, 11:29 AM
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Re: [AiRpollUtiOn] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did some looking:

Of the canopy deaths this year (which I hope is done)

1. 135 jumps, .9 wingload. Panic turn to avoid an object
2. 270 jumps, 1.67 wingload. Hook.
3. 200 jumps, 1.7 wingload. Hook
4. 275 jumps, 1.63 WL. Hook
5. 201 jumps, ???? WL. Panic turn to avoid object
6. 1500 jumps, ??? WL. Hook into water.
7. 500 jumps, ???? WL. No info if hook or panic
8. 170 jumps, 1.29 WL. Hook
9. 160 jumps, 1.31 WL. Hook

I didn't include the canopy collapse stuff.

Notice anything?
Only one jumper with over 600 jumps.
7 under 300
2 panic turns with one unknown.

I see a very clear low jump # and high wingload issue.

This is why I am
Canopy NAZI #3!!!!!

Ron

All info was taken off of USPA/Barrys pages (which he does not run anymore, but I am not sure who is now.)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 18, 2002, 1:26 PM
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Re: [jumperconway] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

is this the fatality you are refering to?

From:

http://www.skydivingfatalities.com/

5 Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
~2/20/2002 Skydive Spaceland, Texas LOWT ?? ~200 N/A/N/A
Description: After an uneventful hop and pop from a Cessna 182, this jumper initiated a hard front rider turn at ~80ft while heading downwind. He had completed the turn and had transitioned to pulling both front risers down when he impacted the group. He has unresponsive for perhaps 10 minutes, and received immediate medical care from an EMT who was present at the scene. He died about 2 weeks later at hospital. He was jumping a Sabre 120, loaded at perhaps 1.5 lb/ft^2 or more. There was no canopy traffic, and the landing area was wide an open. He had not attemped many high performance landings in the past, though he had briefly discussed how to do them with an instructor.
Lessons: Learning to make high-performance landings is a high-risk endeavor. It is probably best learned with larger canopies (1.1-1.3lb/ft^2) before moving to more heavily loaded ones. additionally, shallow turns or even straight in approaches should be mastered before moving to 180's.

Hook


jumperconway  (D 24335)

Dec 18, 2002, 1:56 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

That had to be it Derrick,
It was Crazy Shane, it went I think 170,150,120. I don't know if you ever met him but the last 2 progressions were pretty quick. He impacted the ground not the group though.
Conway


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Dec 18, 2002, 2:11 PM
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Re: [jumperconway] Injuries? [In reply to] Can't Post

I took him on most, if not all, of his AFP jumps.

Hook



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