Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit

 

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beergood

Oct 12, 2007, 7:06 AM
Post #126 of 171 (1087 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

mccordia whats the point of your post?


PapaSmurf  (D 5824)

Oct 12, 2007, 7:10 AM
Post #127 of 171 (1084 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I never used the cutaway cables on my classic either but have used them on bigger suits like the S3 and Matter. The SM1 also has a lot more wing surface than the classic.

Thanx! for the info !

How high where you pulling when you used the cables ? Do you think you could have used zippers instead ? Tanx! &

Blueskys !!!

P. Smurf


(This post was edited by PapaSmurf on Oct 12, 2007, 7:11 AM)


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 12, 2007, 7:19 AM
Post #128 of 171 (1076 views)
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Re: [beergood] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
mccordia whats the point of your post?

Id rather ask you...
I was just asking a question...

Ive been busy with a videoproject focussing on a lot of the older wingsuit stuff, and I tend to think its bad form to take any credit away from people who where devloping things way before some of us where even born..

A lot of 'new' techniques and things have been tried and experimented with way, way before our time..credit where credit is due..thats all..

So dont get your panties in a bunch just yetTongueWink


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Oct 12, 2007, 7:48 AM
Post #129 of 171 (1056 views)
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Re: [PapaSmurf] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

How high where you pulling when you used the cables ? Do you think you could have used zippers instead ? Tanx! &

Blueskys !!!

P. Smurf
In most cases I was around or below 2k, for example, once due to being at a venue where pulling above 2 was verbotten and unsafe. Once I was just plain low. Twice I had zippers stick due to the sharp angle I was trying to make them work at or the tab pulled off. No rush in each of those cases altitude considered but very nice to have the option. In fact I don't consider cable cut aways on a wingsuit an option. I'm just not suicidal enough to jump one without.


skydave114  (D License)

Oct 12, 2007, 7:58 AM
Post #130 of 171 (1046 views)
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Re: [PapaSmurf] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

 
That's funny Papa.
I actually feel tall when you're around!


Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Oct 12, 2007, 8:39 AM
Post #131 of 171 (1032 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of 'new' techniques and things have been tried and experimented with way, way before our time..credit where credit is due..thats all..

So dont get your panties in a bunch just yet
--------------------------
yes I agree,

did you know I made the first suits for Patric DeGuyaedon?
he made the wings though,
same thing for Adrian,
Wink


174fps  (C 3060)

Oct 12, 2007, 1:36 PM
Post #132 of 171 (983 views)
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Re: [bdrake529] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote:
I currently know of none, which is why I don't mind that I still cannot get the SM1 system to work reliably. I've tried following Jeff's written instructions (including the "look like a retarded T-Rex") to no avail. I've also had 4 other people now try the system with the same result. I look forward to Jeff showing me the correct method when I see him this weekend at Chick's Rock. I'm sure I'll feel like an idiot for not figuring it out sooner.

I assume from this that you are having difficulty breaking the intial resistance of the velcro ( I demonstrate this every time I train a student
to cut away, by picking up the rig by the handle )
so if you mate the velcro well, it requires some effort to separate.
If you only partially mate the velcro, it is easier to come apart
but could potentially do so when not wanted.
A solution would be to sew a loop, the same size as the cable loops
on BM/PF suits ( big enough for 2 fingers) at the wrist, the jumper could then reach and rip the velcro apart. No second zipper needed


unclecharlie95  (C 100027)

Oct 12, 2007, 2:41 PM
Post #133 of 171 (957 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Am I wrong in thinking it was an invention from Patrick DeGuyardon, if he didnt already base it on a previous design/system?

The photos i saw showed Patricks system as using closing cloops passing inside the body through grommets (similar to the current S-Fly design but not on the sleeve).

An earlier version also used a 3 ring system at the base of the arm wing, which on one occasion jammed and made a nasty situation for Patricks wing /cameraman.

Do you have the photos you are refering too?

The tab/ cable (or piano key) design is essentially a door hinge so not a revolution but a new application.

J


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 13, 2007, 7:40 AM
Post #134 of 171 (904 views)
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Re: [bdrake529] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I currently know of none, which is why I don't mind that I still cannot get the SM1 system to work reliably. I've tried following Jeff's written instructions (including the "look like a retarded T-Rex") to no avail. I've also had 4 other people now try the system with the same result. I look forward to Jeff showing me the correct method when I see him this weekend at Chick's Rock. I'm sure I'll feel like an idiot for not figuring it out sooner..

I too am unable to make it work.Frown Maybe when pumped full of adrenaline...


bdrake529  (D 29503)

Oct 13, 2007, 8:50 AM
Post #135 of 171 (890 views)
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Re: [kallend] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

Jeff determined the problem. My thumb loops are too short and therefore it is impossible to drop them, which is necessary to apply force directly to the velcro.

Once that's fixed, supposedly it will work.


Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Oct 13, 2007, 9:07 AM
Post #136 of 171 (886 views)
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Re: [bdrake529] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

if you grab the handle with the other hand, then pull the sleeve off the arm, point your thumb in the direction of the pull, try that,


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 14, 2007, 5:01 PM
Post #137 of 171 (801 views)
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Re: [bdrake529] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My understanding is that arm-wing cutaways are primarily intended for immediate access to canopy controls in the event of either:
-a pending canopy collision where you need to reach a riser to quickly turn
-a main "mal" that can be fixed if immediately dealt with (like a spin caused by a brake toggle release on deployment)

Other than these two, can anyone suggest another scenario where arm-wing cutaways are necessary?

When a zipper jams or breaks.


Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Oct 15, 2007, 7:03 AM
Post #138 of 171 (748 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

then you have a second one,

first impressions seem good I think with all the people that are trying this system


unclecharlie95  (C 100027)

Oct 15, 2007, 11:53 AM
Post #139 of 171 (690 views)
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Let us imagine the primary zipper jams 1/3rd the way up your arm, then imagine trying to find the slider of the 2nd zipper which is now on top of the open sleeve in a hurry. You cannot memorize the position of the 2nd zipper.

In this situation the 2nd zip will also not slide that well as the sleeve is partially open and it will follow a curved path.

Both times that my zips jammed it happened just below the elbow. (long sleeve t-shirt)

IMO a zip is not an adequate substitute to a "quick release" / wing cut away.

I have also used my cut aways many times on "short" canopy rides.


Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Oct 15, 2007, 12:16 PM
Post #140 of 171 (678 views)
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Re: [unclecharlie95] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

both zips are fastened with a snap to the thumb loop so they are always there,

alwaysSmile


Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Oct 15, 2007, 12:27 PM
Post #141 of 171 (680 views)
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Re: [unclecharlie95] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

and how is reaching down below your knees, something you dont ever do, easier than undoing somth in front of your face that you do on every jump, and I've talked with people that have released the "standard" release and it took an age to pull the cables up against the direction there in,


monkycndo  (D License)

Oct 15, 2007, 12:52 PM
Post #142 of 171 (669 views)
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

The situation has been raised before. The arm cut away should function during worse case scenario. Consider this one. I get taken out and have a badly injured right arm. Can't reach my hacky so I go silver. I pulled unstable due to being asymmetric and open in line twists. I can't unzip any zipper on the good arm using that same arm. My arm just don't bend that way, but I'd like to watch someone give it a try. They might be able to do it with their teeth, but that isn't something we do every day either, specially when under a spun up canopy hurling at the ground. A cable cut away system that can be reached with either hand may not be as elegant, but seems more failsafe in my book.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Oct 15, 2007, 1:00 PM
Post #143 of 171 (666 views)
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Re: [unclecharlie95] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Let us imagine the primary zipper jams 1/3rd the way up your arm, then imagine trying to find the slider of the 2nd zipper which is now on top of the open sleeve in a hurry. You cannot memorize the position of the 2nd zipper.

The fact that you cant memorize the position is not even that big an issue..
When the 1st zipper is one third or halfway open, the tension of the start of the second zipper, and your then unable to pull it open, unless you use two hands. Which would only work (ofcourse) if you had three hand (since one is locked up in the sleeves..

The webbies also seemed to be a good idea the the start Tony, but multiple pullproblems on suits already out there and flying made you change that.

In my views (self centered and full of bad humor as they may beTongue) altering a system thats there only for a few specific (but potentialy dangerous) incidents is not something you want to 'test in the field' to see how long it takes for it to become a hazard..


Airowpoint  (C 94738)

Oct 15, 2007, 1:18 PM
Post #144 of 171 (652 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The fact that you cant memorize the position is not even that big an issue..
When the 1st zipper is one third or halfway open, the tension of the start of the second zipper, and your then unable to pull it open, unless you use two hands. Which would only work (ofcourse) if you had three hand (since one is locked up in the sleeves..

That won't be a problem when the thumb loop is in between the two zippers.

Still a bad idea not to have a cutaway though...


beergood

Oct 15, 2007, 1:32 PM
Post #145 of 171 (641 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

The other thing to look at is not all flyers have your experience. Tony you have been skydiving a very long time and have big jump numbers. Even a guy with 1000 jumps probably cant compare to your years of experience and how relaxed you are in the sky and dealing with issues. So all these things seem very simple to someone of your knowledge, experience, and jump numbers. To a guy that may have 200 wingsuit jumps and 500 jumps total its a WHOLE new ballpark. Same reason they make students jump RSL's etc. Just something to keep in mind with the wing release system and why I think many of the guys in here think the cable system when things are going really bad and wrong is an easier and better cut a way system. And to me how many people are really going from Freeflying, RW, Swooping to go do a WS jump. Not to mention I know in the FF world most are jumping ridiculously small canopies and almost all high performance. How many of the FF do you know that jump pilots, spectres, and sabres just not many.


Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Oct 15, 2007, 1:34 PM
Post #146 of 171 (638 views)
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Re: [monkycndo] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

The situation has been raised before. The arm cut away should function during worse case scenario. Consider this one. I get taken out and have a badly injured right arm. Can't reach my hacky so I go silver. I pulled unstable due to being asymmetric and open in line twists. I can't unzip any zipper on the good arm using that same arm. My arm just don't bend that way, but I'd like to watch someone give it a try. They might be able to do it with their teeth, but that isn't something we do every day either, specially when under a spun up canopy hurling at the ground. A cable cut away system that can be reached with either hand may not be as elegant, but seems more failsafe in my book.
------------------------------------------------------

If the said arm is so smashed that you cant undo a zipper, what are you going to do with it once you cut the arm of the suit away from it, and I think it would be easy to undo the zipper with your teeth, let me see you undo "your" cutaway's with your teeth and yes to the two mails above, the thumb loop is in between both zips so its right there and will undo if either zip is in any position,
I just went to try that and I undid all 4 zippers with my teeth.


Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Oct 15, 2007, 1:42 PM
Post #147 of 171 (633 views)
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Re: [beergood] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

The other thing to look at is not all flyers have your experience. Tony you have been skydiving a very long time and have big jump numbers. Even a guy with 1000 jumps probably cant compare to your years of experience and how relaxed you are in the sky and dealing with issues. So all these things seem very simple to someone of your knowledge, experience, and jump numbers. To a guy that may have 200 wingsuit jumps and 500 jumps total its a WHOLE new ballpark. Same reason they make students jump RSL's etc. Just something to keep in mind with the wing release system and why I think many of the guys in here think the cable system when things are going really bad and wrong is an easier and better cut a way system. And to me how many people are really going from Freeflying, RW, Swooping to go do a WS jump. Not to mention I know in the FF world most are jumping ridiculously small canopies and almost all high performance. How many of the FF do you know that jump pilots, spectres, and sabres just not many.
--------------------
True but the people I see doing that borrow a bigger "rig" to go wingsuit, and not everyone has a tiny parachute, hey I want everyone to do this,
and the whole point here is that its easier to undo a zip than it is to cutaway because you do it every time,
My first break release I went for the arm zip not the cutaway on the leg, its just habit, you can do it just as fast because of that,


Airowpoint  (C 94738)

Oct 15, 2007, 1:55 PM
Post #148 of 171 (623 views)
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me just make some other points about cutaway systems:
On the S3S I jumped I could hardly remove the cutaway cable because it was so tight.
On the Phi I could not remove the cable at all without ripping off some fabric.
With the Blade (and I expect with the Ghost as well) the cutaway handle is so low you can't reach it without pulling up your knees, which might be awkward in freefall and possibly impossible under a spinning canopy.

not really making a point, just wanted to mention it...


Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Oct 15, 2007, 2:08 PM
Post #149 of 171 (616 views)
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Re: [Airowpoint] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

 
ha good one Tris, didn't even think of that,

and how bout the standard cutaway that comes free by itself sometimes, what was the post a few months ago about a pantom that cut itself away, and others have by the reply's to that post,


bdrake529  (D 29503)

Oct 15, 2007, 2:43 PM
Post #150 of 171 (604 views)
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] Mercury Rising: Photos of the new Tony Suit [In reply to] Can't Post

I really think the best system would be a combination of the current Tony Suit system (shoulder zipper to attach to rig), with the S-Fly cutaway cable approach (but with separate cables for each arm so they don't have to be re-threaded unless they've been used).

The only problem I see that needs to be sorted out is using the S-Fly approach without losing the air-locked seal of the wing. The S-Fly expert has a lot of open area in the arm wing due to the cable system. I don't know if the Pro-Fly has fixed this, but it should be possible to devise a way to prevent air leaking.

But, perhaps the current SM1 approach (busting through the velcro) is best, since there isn't a less-refined motion (compared to zippers and pulling cables) than punching upward towards the risers. Now that Jeff has identified the system is basically inoperable if the thumb loops are too short, I look forward to re-evaluating the effectiveness of the system once my loops are adjusted.


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