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What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer?

 

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980

Sep 20, 2007, 9:21 PM
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What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? Can't Post

Hello everyone.

I don't visit this forum much as my main interests lie in other parts.

The subject pretty much says it all.

What would you consider inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer when they are at a dropzone who paid them for their services?

We recently had a big-way event at a DZ I jump at and I saw an (in)famous big-way organizer bust the beer line twice on one day to hot-dog it for the spectators.

The second time he turned too low, stabbed too late, bounced off the ground in his carve, lost control of his parachute and while he was sliding along his ass on the ground (across the beerline), his canopy flew into a picnic bench and the tandem students sitting on it, who were waiting to jump.

Luckiliy no-one was hurt, but when the DZO asked what that was about and mentioned that was the 2nd time that day for a beerline infraction, he blamed it on windshear.

I couldn't believe the nerve of this guy and how inconsiderate he was to everyone else, even the people paying him!

Has anyone else seen anything like this?

cya
sam


darkwing  (D 4164)

Sep 21, 2007, 2:39 AM
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is somewhat tacky. I'd say it is time for public merciless and frequent reminders of the performance.

Wind shear my ass.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Sep 21, 2007, 7:37 AM
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In reply to:
It is somewhat tacky. I'd say it is time for public merciless and frequent reminders of the performance.

Wind shear my ass.

Simple solution. Don't invite the organizer back. the message will be loud and clear.


DanG  (D 22351)

Sep 21, 2007, 8:38 AM
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

We had some very similar behavior from a quite well known organizer at our DZ. He railed against swooping during big ways, then proceeded to pull off very poorly executed hook turns on every jump. That and his obnoxious attitude were enough to make us decide not to invite him back. Whether or not the message got through, I don't know, but at least we'll never have to put up with his crap again.

- Dan G


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Sep 26, 2007, 9:37 AM
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not appropriate. Period.

Organizers, DZO's, Instructors, and (yes!) experienced jumpers have a responsibility to follow the rules. After all, if the hot-shit jumpers aren't following them, why would anyone else bother? Furthermore, those are the people who MADE the rules, which is just hypocritial.

A culture of saftey starts at the top... 100 jump wonders will NEVER follow the rules if the 5000+ jump skygods don't lead by example.


elightle  (D 5966)

Sep 27, 2007, 5:58 AM
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

Overall, I'd say this guy is the exception and not the rule. I haven't run into his type but, like someone else said: Don't invite him back. UDSkyJunkie, who also responded to your post, is a first-year organizer but he's a good one. He stepped up and filled a much-needed gap in organizing at a new DZ.

Blues! - ED Cool


wildcard451  (D License)

Sep 27, 2007, 9:29 PM
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why don't you just tell us who did this? So we can all know about this hot-dogging and choose to shun them for their irresponsibility.

That would get the message across real loud. Money talks. Bullshit walks.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Sep 29, 2007, 1:19 PM
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Re: [wildcard451] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why don't you just tell us who did this? So we can all know about this hot-dogging and choose to shun them for their irresponsibility.

That would get the message across real loud. Money talks. Bullshit walks.

I asked for this in a pm, but no reply. Out him so he can change his behavior. Unimpressed


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Oct 2, 2007, 5:30 AM
Post #9 of 45 (5489 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

Its fairly easy to figure out who it is, look at the DZ website and look at their calendar of events. Wink


980

Oct 2, 2007, 7:12 AM
Post #10 of 45 (5470 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know if it would be appropriate to mention the guy's name, but here's a picture of the landing.

The pole with the orange flag he is about to snag his lines on and get swung around is a beerline marker.


(This post was edited by 980 on Oct 2, 2007, 7:13 AM)
Attachments: hotdog.jpg (292 KB)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Oct 2, 2007, 7:54 AM
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The pole with the orange flag he is about to snag his lines on and get swung around is a beerline marker.

nyaa haa
Attachments: Nyaa Ha.jpg (7.90 KB)


DanG  (D 22351)

Oct 2, 2007, 11:01 AM
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks real familiar.

- Dan G


JustChuteMeNow

Oct 2, 2007, 3:20 PM
Post #13 of 45 (5379 views)
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

No it wouldn't be wright to post the guy's name. However, IMHO organizer's should be setting the example.


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 2, 2007, 4:29 PM
Post #14 of 45 (5367 views)
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Re: [UDSkyJunkie] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not appropriate. Period.
Organizers, DZO's, Instructors, and (yes!) experienced jumpers have a responsibility to follow the rules. After all, if the hot-shit jumpers aren't following them, why would anyone else bother? Furthermore, those are the people who MADE the rules, which is just hypocritial. A culture of saftey starts at the top... 100 jump wonders will NEVER follow the rules if the 5000+ jump skygods don't lead by example.

So could we say the same thing about a dropzone manger who hires out as a TDM course director and AFF, IAD, S/L, Coach course director and is a S&TA and serves as a member of the USPA safety & training committee and is also a regional director, that decides to take a underage tandem passenger and then back dates (falsifed) the applaction for the waver to the BSR's on age after the fact?

I mean after all is this not the person in charge of applying the BSR's as the dz S&TA and also part of his job as a sitting BOD member and chair of the S&T commitee, they are the ones who make up the rules, are they not?

Is this what we as USPA members think is "leading by example"? Is this the type of "responsibility to follow the rules" we want to keep in office and running the show on a regional level and having the power to enforce the rules as he sees fit, on the rest of us, all the while picking and choosing the rules that apply to him at will?

To try to defend these actions by a sitting BOD member with so many acronyms who clearly understands and knows the BSR's by rising to such a high level with in the USPA but yet willingly violates the very rules he is intrusted with upholding, would be "hypocritial" would it not?

If were going to make a big stink about Guy Wright swooping past the beer line and calling him a jerk off for doing so and setting a bad example, then let's take it all the way to the top and start cleaning house with those at the top level and work our way down to the bottom, NOT start at the bottom and work our way up!


(This post was edited by stratostar on Oct 2, 2007, 4:33 PM)


JustChuteMeNow

Oct 2, 2007, 6:53 PM
Post #15 of 45 (5332 views)
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Re: [stratostar] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.......decides to take a underage tandem passenger and then back dates (falsifed) the applaction for the waver to the BSR's on age after the fact?

I'm not trying to defend this person but BSRs are designed to establish safety standards for common situations and they are either waiverable or non-waiverable. Age is waiverable and has been approved by the full board many times. I don't know the full story regarding the incident you described but I would suspect there are two sides.

The original post was about a load organizer being an ass and how a person in that position should be held to a higher standard. I think load organizers should set the example; however, I also feel DZOs, S&TAs, Regional Directors, Skygods, and other influential people in our sport should help enforce good practices too.


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Oct 2, 2007, 7:07 PM
Post #16 of 45 (5326 views)
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Re: [stratostar] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So could we say the same thing about a dropzone manger who hires out as a TDM course director and AFF, IAD, S/L, Coach course director and is a S&TA and serves as a member of the USPA safety & training committee and is also a regional director, that decides to take a underage tandem passenger and then back dates (falsifed) the applaction for the waver to the BSR's on age after the fact?

I mean after all is this not the person in charge of applying the BSR's as the dz S&TA and also part of his job as a sitting BOD member and chair of the S&T commitee, they are the ones who make up the rules, are they not?

Is this what we as USPA members think is "leading by example"? Is this the type of "responsibility to follow the rules" we want to keep in office and running the show on a regional level and having the power to enforce the rules as he sees fit, on the rest of us, all the while picking and choosing the rules that apply to him at will?

To try to defend these actions by a sitting BOD member with so many acronyms who clearly understands and knows the BSR's by rising to such a high level with in the USPA but yet willingly violates the very rules he is intrusted with upholding, would be "hypocritial" would it not?

If were going to make a big stink about Guy Wright swooping past the beer line and calling him a jerk off for doing so and setting a bad example, then let's take it all the way to the top and start cleaning house with those at the top level and work our way down to the bottom, NOT start at the bottom and work our way up!

At the time of my post, I did not know who the person is quesiton was (nor was I interested in learning). It was a response to a general question, and I stand by it. It was not appropriate. I don't care if it's guy wright or jared ashley... If I had done that, it wouldn't have been appropriate either. We all fuck up now and then.

Although I vaugely recall the name, I do not know this organizer personally. I don't know where he is from or what his history is, and I have no idea if this incident is normal or isolated. I therefore refuse to speculate further on that topic.

I don't know who you are, other than that you're an angry richmond jumper (or ex-richmond jumper for all I know) who's bringing up an unrelated topic from an unrelated thread that has already been beaten to death. However, I'm 100% certain that in your claimed 34 years in the sport YOU have done lots of shit that violated the BSR's, just like everyone else, myself included.


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 2, 2007, 9:43 PM
Post #17 of 45 (5306 views)
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Re: [UDSkyJunkie] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I don't know who you are, other than that you're an angry richmond jumper (or ex-richmond jumper for all I know)

angry ,Yea ok, if you say so.Wink The first rule in defense is, if you can't defend the facts or proof, go on & attack the messenger and try to shift the blame away form those who are the fuck ups. (no surprise there)LaughLaughLaugh

I asked a legit question about two factual events, one a big way organizer who swoops past the beer line twice and second a higher profile person busting a BSR they are charged to uphold as well as to teach others to follow, and asking if we should or should not hold them to the same standards when holding ones self out to the skydiving industry as a leader. I see in this thread people calling for the big way org. to be called out in public and in away black balled for two bad swoops and acting like an ass. Asking for him to be named is kind of like saying "tar & feather" the dude and run him out of town on a rail.

So where do we draw the line? Who do we hold to the standards already set? You guys seem so quick to pounce on Mr. Wright and say he should "lead by example" & has a "responsibility to follow the rules" and I'm asking you and the rest of the posters here, if you agree or disagree with applying the rules across the board regardless of the name of the person when they truly have a "responsibility to follow the rules" by the very offices and ratings they hold and having those ratings (S&TA) that puts them in a position to be "leading by example".

Quote:
I'm 100% certain that in your claimed 34 years in the sport YOU have done lots of shit that violated the BSR's, just like everyone else, myself included.

Yea I have gone thru some clouds or gotten open lower then I should have before, and I have been busted by the DZO & S&TA and even the FAA for it. However that is a far cry from knowingly and willingly submitting falsified paper work after taking an underage child on a skydive while holding a high level USPA position to try to cover up the fact that you knowingly broke a BSR's by trying to ask if it is ok after the jump.

So we are going to hold Mr. wright to a higher standard then everyone else, such as sitting BOD members, because he is a high profile event org. and can't swoop worth a shit and don't buy his beer when he busted the beer line.? (not quite busting a BSR's is it)

Your reply to my honest question seems to imply a double standard, one set of standards for some and another set of standards for the rest. You can't have it both ways!

You can call me all the names you want too and try to say I'm thread driffting, but are we not talking about inappropriate actions of industry leaders, oh I see we can only point the finger of blame at bigway org's for a beer line bust, but not talk about the actions of other high profile industry leaders and ask if we should have the same expections of our leaders across the board, sure sounds like a double standard to me.

To the OP, did you voice you concern to the DZ S&TA or to Mr. Wright in person or to the DZO and voice your thoughts after the first beer line bust?

If not why not? Do you expect only the DZO or S&TA to speak up?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Oct 2, 2007, 10:02 PM
Post #18 of 45 (5298 views)
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Re: [stratostar] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

>So could we say the same thing about a dropzone manger . . .

Please start a new thread in General if you would like to discuss bad stuff 'bout DZO's. That has nothing to do with RW.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Oct 3, 2007, 5:30 AM
Post #19 of 45 (5265 views)
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen him hotdogging during bigways before.

Specifically, I remember one incident where not only was he swooping through a busy pattern, but he was swooping crosswind through a busy pattern - needless to say he was the only one swooping crosswind.

That specific incident ended with a friend going to hospital with a broken back.

That was 7 years ago. It's amazing that he's still doing shit like that. I'm equally amazed that DZO's will have him on their DZ.

_Am


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Oct 3, 2007, 5:46 AM
Post #20 of 45 (5259 views)
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Re: [stratostar] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Asking for him to be named is kind of like saying "tar & feather" the dude and run him out of town on a rail.

I agree with that much. Discussing behavior in an anonymous way is fine, and I think that's exactly what the original poster did. Demanding names should not be done in a public forum IMO.

In reply to:
However that is a far cry from knowingly and willingly submitting falsified paper work after taking an underage child on a skydive while holding a high level USPA position to try to cover up the fact that you knowingly broke a BSR's by trying to ask if it is ok after the jump.

You've been around the block... who was the last underage person you saw jump? Was there a waiver? How often has that occured on your own DZ (even if not recently)? And how is it falsified if it's filed? Late yes, but not falsified. We've all been guilty of "begging forgivness instead of asking permission".

The OP did not do that... he didn't name names, and he didn't suggest punishment.


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 3, 2007, 7:45 AM
Post #21 of 45 (5229 views)
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Re: [UDSkyJunkie] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
who was the last underage person you saw jump?

A DZO's kid.

Quote:
Was there a waiver?

No

Quote:
How often has that occured on your own DZ (even if not recently)?

There have been a number ask and they were turned down, we do allow 16 years old to do S/L with both parents consent.

Quote:
And how is it falsified if it's filed?

It's called back dating.

Quote:
The OP did not do that... he didn't name names, and he didn't suggest punishment

That is correct he did not, others did. Nor have I publicly named anyone.

As Andyman just posted about the bigway org. doing other types of "bad form moves", Andy did you voice your thoughts with Mr. Wright after you saw him doing so or did you say anything to the DZO or S&TA? If so why did it take someone getting a broken back to get him to stop, or did the actions not stop after the hurt person was carried off the LZ?

It seems to me everyone wants self policing, but not to many people have the balls to speak up and call bullshit on some people because of who they are or are willing to turn a blind eye because the "big name" person is one of the "cool kids" or the hotshit skydiver above the rules everyone else is expected to follow. Again where do we draw the line? It would seem once someone go's in, we all stand back and a say "why didn't anyone stop asshat" "I can't believe Danny page would did that" OR "I'm not surprised DP just killed someone, he was an accident waiting to happen" yet no one had the balls to speak up or go public to warn others at risk of anothers actions.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Oct 3, 2007, 9:28 AM
Post #22 of 45 (5199 views)
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Re: [stratostar] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

Stratostar, last warning. Do NOT use this forum for your vendetta.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 3, 2007, 9:31 AM
Post #23 of 45 (5198 views)
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Re: [980] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

From the written rules at the recent TSR, the Illinois POPS record, and forthcoming World POPS record:

"NO SWOOP LANDINGS OF ANY KIND will be allowed on any jump. This INCLUDES camera personnel, organizers, and DZ staff. No maneuvers (such as spirals, S-turns on final approach, deep brakes on final approach, or turns over 90 degrees in the pattern) will be allowed."


(This post was edited by kallend on Oct 3, 2007, 9:32 AM)


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Oct 3, 2007, 9:45 AM
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Re: [kallend] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From the written rules at the recent TSR, the Illinois POPS record, and forthcoming World POPS record:

"NO SWOOP LANDINGS OF ANY KIND will be allowed on any jump. This INCLUDES camera personnel, organizers, and DZ staff. No maneuvers (such as spirals, S-turns on final approach, deep brakes on final approach, or turns over 90 degrees in the pattern) will be allowed."

So if a big way jumper violates this rule and gets kicked off the big way, they should be fair and kick the organizer off if he violates the same rule.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 3, 2007, 12:21 PM
Post #25 of 45 (5156 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] What is inappropriate behaviour for a big-way organizer? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
From the written rules at the recent TSR, the Illinois POPS record, and forthcoming World POPS record:

"NO SWOOP LANDINGS OF ANY KIND will be allowed on any jump. This INCLUDES camera personnel, organizers, and DZ staff. No maneuvers (such as spirals, S-turns on final approach, deep brakes on final approach, or turns over 90 degrees in the pattern) will be allowed."

So if a big way jumper violates this rule and gets kicked off the big way, they should be fair and kick the organizer off if he violates the same rule.

Since the organizer is responsible for the rule, one imagines that the organizer will abide by it.


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