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When to flare?

 

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buba07

Aug 26, 2007, 2:44 PM
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When to flare? Can't Post

Hi,

I'm four jumps into my RAPS course. I've completely fallen for this sport however in my last landing I mis judged it and was forced to come down on a concrete section of land.

Being a student I inevitably ended up on my backside and it was painfull!

When is the best indication / time to flare as I see all the skydivers and they just swoop into a standing landing?

Thanks


dragon2  (D 101989)

Aug 26, 2007, 3:30 PM
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Re: [buba07] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why don;t you ask your instructors about that? '

BTW landing on your backside is not recommended, a PLF will save your ass, literally Wink

Landing standing up will come in time, landing safely is way more important.

Go talk to your instructors Wink


sraja  (B 31468)

Aug 27, 2007, 12:54 PM
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Re: [buba07] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll share my own learning and experience but I'll also warn you that no matter how many instructors, coaches and fellow jumpers you ask it finally boils down to your own abilities. Others can definitely give you pointers and tips but this is one aspect of the sport that takes practice to perfect.

After a biffed no-flare landing, I began to doubt my ability to flare and flared either too high or too much. Finally after about 50 jumps or so, I have regained a lot of my original confidence in flaring. Some tips that may help

1. Look at the horizon - doesnt mean look straight ahead, but instead look at a point that includes the ground and the horizon so you can judge your height
2. I try to land in proximity to objects like wind sock, flag poles etc so that I can judge my height and apply the flare appropriately
3. Get a ladder and put it out on the landing field and climb it. Memorize the view of the height at which you want to flare. Note the size and appearance of objects in the horizon.
4. Have a friend / instructor tape your landings and review them.
5. Practice flares up high and realize how your canopy swings back when you apply the brakes. There are several ways to flare a canopy to stand still and yet several more depending on the wind conditions. I dont want to educate you on those as your instructor may disagree.
6. Practice - Practice - Practice. If you search these forums you will find a post of mine where I admit shamelessly how I loathed no-wind days. Now, I look forward to them. Practice made the difference.

Hope you do well on your next jump.


buba07

Aug 27, 2007, 1:08 PM
Post #4 of 79 (2334 views)
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Re: [sraja] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cheers Sraja,

When you didn't flare wasn't that a really rough landing?

I think my last jump reminded me that focus is needed at all times. I suppose the sport is like learning to drive a car?

Cant wait for wednesday (next jump - weather permitting!)

I'll be back to post progress - thanks again.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Aug 27, 2007, 1:39 PM
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Re: [buba07] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Flare before to impact. Visiting with your instructors should be first on your list. You probably have so now ill try to assist. Flare timing: is achieved with training from instructors, practice, time, and a good idea. Instructors: you know where to find them. Practice: up high in the sky after you open your parachute and do control checks or ep's. Analogy:compare a new car with good brakes to a car with bad brakes. For you both cars you'll need to figure out how much time and pressure it takes to apply the brakes. Time: is a learned thing, practice flare up high alot of times. How long does it take you to flare and feel like you pretty much have stopped and are hovering under canopy? A good idea: from visiting and gathering info about the gear your using. If you jump a 260 sq ft student canopy your 'instructors' should assist you in getting a 'good idea' on the 'timing' for the 'flare' and to 'practice' after you've opened. As you become a skydiver and jump other canopy sizes you should naturally be concerned with certain things about the canopy like 'how's good does it open' (soft/hard) how's the flare? Knowing the PLF and using it is also an asset to your a.. well, backside.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 27, 2007, 1:56 PM
Post #6 of 79 (2318 views)
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Re: [dragon2] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why don;t you ask your instructors about that? '

BTW landing on your backside is not recommended, a PLF will save your ass, literally Wink


Landing standing up will come in time, landing safely is way more important.

Go talk to your instructors Wink


Worth repeating and emphasizing until it gets through.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 27, 2007, 2:03 PM
Post #7 of 79 (2314 views)
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Re: [buba07] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Being a student I inevitably ended up on my backside and it was painfull!

Don't do that. Land with your feet under you. If you have a hard landing, better to deal with a broken ankle than a broken back or pelvis. PLF's will give you the best shot at not getting hurt when you land.

>When is the best indication / time to flare as I see all the skydivers and
>they just swoop into a standing landing?

The only thing that will get this dialed in is time. But until then:

-Do not look down. Look out at a 45 degree angle.

-If there are buildings around you that have flat roofs, then when the roof disappears you're at 10-12 feet (assuming one story buildings of course.) That's a good time to flare.

-When you can see individual blades of grass, for most people that's at around 10-15 feet.

-A rule of thumb that works for some strange reason is "wait until you're really scared, then wait another 2 seconds, then flare."

As always listen to your instructors, do not take anything you read here as gospel etc etc.


towerrat  (D 28189)

Aug 28, 2007, 6:30 AM
Post #8 of 79 (2238 views)
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Re: [buba07] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

When to flare?

Before your goggles fill up with blood....................Unimpressed


d123  (B 6134)

Aug 28, 2007, 10:27 AM
Post #9 of 79 (2198 views)
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Re: [buba07] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

<---- Low jump number! But here is my 2 cents.

In reply to:
Being a student I inevitably ended up on my backside and it was painfull!
Speak with your instructors but that sounds like a stall close to the ground or jumping in very strong winds.What wing are you flying?

Run this idea through your instructors:

If you are jumping a wing that can be stalled (some places have PD 9Cells or Sabre 2 for students) find the stall point during your flare practices at high altitude. It's the point where the wing will collapse. Find the lower point (just before the stall point) where the wing is stable and flying. Let's name this one slow decent point. Then, if during you flare, you find yourself in the situation where you are close to the slow decent point but still have altitude to burn stop at that point and hold it there. This way you'll land on your feet with a flying wing (less horizontal speed) and not on your back with a collapsed wing (more horizontal speed).


(This post was edited by d123 on Aug 28, 2007, 10:38 AM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Aug 28, 2007, 11:36 AM
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Re: [d123] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy the above post doesn't make much sense Crazy


AFFI  (D 25538)

Aug 28, 2007, 12:12 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why don't you ask your instructors about that?

Worth repeating and emphasizing until it gets through.


Yup...

Why o why
do people who are not qualified to give advice much less instruction insist on giving students "advice" online?
Don't they realize that their well intentioned advice could cause a person to seriously injure themselves or worse?
Why act like you know what you are talking rather than just tell a student that seeking advice from the instructors working directly with them is the best course of action?

I am beginning to understand now why they are called 100 jump wondersÖ


Scoop

Aug 28, 2007, 1:27 PM
Post #12 of 79 (2153 views)
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Re: [AFFI] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes its nice to share experiences and seek advice from people in a similar position. ie someone who has just overcome the same hurdle recently. Thats human nature.

If you're blatantly bullshitting in the hope of looking knowledgable then thats wrong.


ElJosh  (A 51040)

Aug 28, 2007, 1:58 PM
Post #13 of 79 (2143 views)
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Re: [buba07] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that I have low jump numbers Crazybut I have pretty good landings. My instructors always told me to look for the spot that isnít moving. That will be the spot that you will be landing. The area before the spot will appear to move towards you and the area past the landing spot will look like itís moving away.
This is what I use and it works for me. The best thing to do though is to talk to the instructors at your DZ and tell them your issue and ask one or more of them watch your landings.
El Josh
AKA ~Ruby


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 28, 2007, 2:31 PM
Post #14 of 79 (2131 views)
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Re: [ElJosh] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

>My instructors always told me to look for the spot that isnít moving.
>That will be the spot that you will be landing.

That's a good trick to determine where you will land but is not such a good trick to judge the flare. Indeed, the flare will make that spot move, so it's a good idea to not be thinking about it _too_ much below about 200 feet.


d123  (B 6134)

Aug 28, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Re: [dragon2] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Crazy the above post doesn't make much sense Crazy
You know, no real informations or lessons comes with your reply.

In reply to:
doesn't make much sense
- it can be my bad exprimation
- or my bad understandings of the phenomenon

In my limited experience the only ways that could land on your back (not ass, back) are stalling your wing close to the ground or the wind is pushing you back.

Don't read this with an aggressive tone.I just want to see why it doesn't make any sense.


ElJosh  (A 51040)

Aug 28, 2007, 2:43 PM
Post #16 of 79 (2122 views)
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Re: [billvon] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>My instructors always told me to look for the spot that isnít moving.
>That will be the spot that you will be landing.

That's a good trick to determine where you will land but is not such a good trick to judge the flare. Indeed, the flare will make that spot move, so it's a good idea to not be thinking about it _too_ much below about 200 feet.

True most of it is just a "feeling" at that point.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Aug 28, 2007, 3:06 PM
Post #17 of 79 (2113 views)
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Re: [dragon2] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Crazy the above post doesn't make much sense Crazy

No, it certainly doesnít make any sense at all...


d123  (B 6134)

Aug 28, 2007, 4:35 PM
Post #18 of 79 (2088 views)
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Re: [AFFI] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Crazy the above post doesn't make much sense Crazy

No, it certainly doesnít make any sense at all...

Oho, Good call Sir. Fuck them hard!!!!!!! It's really fun to do that!!!!


d123  (B 6134)

Aug 28, 2007, 4:35 PM
Post #19 of 79 (2087 views)
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Re: [AFFI] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Well, the 1000 - 600 - 300 method DOESN'T WORK. If I copy the black and white attitude that you shown here and I listen 100% to that method I over shoot land in the trees. I don't want to fly over tents or packing area and Iím not comfortable with to turning low. What I know for sure is that 1000-600-300 doesn't work. Now I'm going to hear the: well, you can take things in your own hands because after all you signed the waiver and it's your life and not our responsibility and we can only give you advices and guide lines.

OK, so suddenly the situation it's gray!! 1000-600-300 it's a guide line and not a black and white rule. Well in this case I better gather as much information as I can. This means different methods & different approaches to all the aspects of skydive. Methods like flare fast & lower vs. slow and higher. What's the down part for each method? What's the good part? Which one behaves better or leaves more room for errors if the winds drops with 10km/h 1 sec before you start flaring?
These are some cases that I've think off after only 40 jump. After 3200 jumps one could have a lot more to say about it. But not you sir!!!!!!!

Your instructors WILL tell you do flare test up there and feel the flare. You can't see shit regarding your gliding ratio up there. You donít really know if your down speed is slow enough for landing. The only thing you feel is that you got more G load (deceleration) when you flare fast. You see the pitch angle changing a lot more when you flare fast too.

edited to remove PA's


(This post was edited by billvon on Aug 28, 2007, 7:26 PM)


Legs  (B 106226)

Aug 28, 2007, 5:02 PM
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Re: [d123] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your right these guys do have lots of jumps and are "like schools"

But ranting and being angry isnt gonna make them help you. If you were to ask "where did I go wrong with that answer?" or "How would you have answered this?". It may have got a productive response.

There are some great articles out there regarding flare and stall points of canopies. Just gotta search for them. There's some here for starters http://www.dropzone.com/..._Control/index.shtml


sraja  (B 31468)

Aug 28, 2007, 5:30 PM
Post #21 of 79 (2074 views)
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Re: [AFFI] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont intend to debate your point of view - you certainly have a lot of experience and are qualified to instruct. But here are some of my observations as a newbie

1. The points that most people share on this board are tips given to them by qualified instructors or well respected canopy pilots. For instance most of the pointers I gave were directly obtained from my instructors and a canopy seminar
2. When I had problems with my flare, I used to walk up to a world famous skydiver and ask him about it. He would give very valuable tips but something was missing - he just couldn't relate to the problems a new comer was having. After 20+ years in the sport he simply didn't have the problems I was having and his challenges were something else. A 100 jump person can maybe relate and understand the problem another low timer is having. Now I am not generalizing but I think you may understand what I mean here.
3. I'm not sure if I missed something here, but in all the posts above I have not seen something blatantly dangerous.
4. Don't all instructors go through the 100 jump wonder phase at some time in their skydiving life? I mean they don't just go from 99 to 1000.

Certainly, you have a point that well mentioned advise can be applied incorrectly and cause harm. But then why do these boards exist? Why ask a question? I think the disclaimer to all advise is well put in Bill Von's sticky as soon as you enter these forums, do we need to repeat it every time someone asks a question?

Personally, I have benefited from asking questions on this board. When I had an uncontrollable spin on level 4, when I was looking for tips on landing on a no wind day, when I was looking to buy a new canopy, when I was afraid of doing a rear diving exit and it goes on. I don't know about you but what I read here was pretty close to what my instructors told me when I asked them the same question later on at the DZ.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 28, 2007, 5:48 PM
Post #22 of 79 (2067 views)
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Re: [sraja] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

The post referred to doesn't make any sense, because it refers to "flying wing" without horizontal speed, and a "collapsed wing" which refers to having more horizontal speed.
Both are incorrect or at the least, very odd descriptions.
A "flying wing" (if I understand the intention) actually has greater horizontal speed, while a "collapsed wing" (again,if I understand the intention) probably refers to a flared/braked wing, which then has less horizontal speed but potentially greater vertical speed. "Collapsing" to me, anyway, describes the stall point of a canopy. The only time you want the stall point near the ground, is just prior to your feet touching.
Additionally, the post refers to how the winds may be. Flaring is very similar in no wind and high wind, the differences are how fast you flare. However, this isn't really easily explained to a low-number jumper, IMO. Otherwise, they might not flare at all in a high wind.
High winds don't mean that you adjust how much you flare. IMO (I'm sure someone will correct me) one should always flare the same, regardless of upwind, no wind, or downwind. You may finish at a different point due to speed being bled off, but the flare itself remains the same.
With jump numbers of 30 or so...I'd imagine/hope that you're still in the mode of a two (or some DZ's three) stage flare.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Aug 28, 2007, 6:28 PM
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Post deleted by AFFI [In reply to]

 


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 28, 2007, 6:32 PM
Post #24 of 79 (2051 views)
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Re: [Scoop] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sometimes its nice to share experiences and seek advice from people in a similar position. ie someone who has just overcome the same hurdle recently. Thats human nature.
Sharing experiences and seeking advice is all well and good...nothing wrong with that, so far. The problem is that the one giving the advice could be dead wrong and if you go practice that advice without running it through your instructors (read: experienced, trained, knowledgable) who know you best, you could be doing yourself and your family a serious disservice.

In reply to:
If you're blatantly bullshitting in the hope of looking knowledgable then thats wrong.
Sorry Scoop, you are misreading AFFI totally. He IS knowledgable. Do a search and read a number of his posts.


d123  (B 6134)

Aug 28, 2007, 6:36 PM
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Re: [DSE] When to flare? [In reply to] Can't Post

In a PM DSE told me where was my mistake. I've writed horizontal speed instead of vertical speed. Here is reply to DSE.

Quote:
Crap!!! Thanks DSE.

I've meant vertical speed. It's a professional deformation. At work we are using a weird system of conversion between 3d max and our game engine.

You know when you hold the breaks all the down and the wing collapse and stops being inflated and it shapes like U? That's what I've meant by stall point. When this happens you fall on your back. On my student canopies NAVIGATORS this never happen they didn't stall.
I've rent 1 month ago a PD9 Cell 260 while jumping at another dropzone. Up high I didn't expected for that to happen so I did one flare and didn't hold it for a few seconds. But when I've flared closed to the ground I've flared a bit higher and at 2 feet it stalled and I've felt on my back.

http://www.pulsevisuals.com/video/details/stallram-air.html
That's what I've meant by stall canopy. I was not trained about the stall and I've found out the hard way.


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