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AFF Student Loses both instructors

 

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docjohn  (D 13182)

Aug 20, 2007, 6:37 AM
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AFF Student Loses both instructors Can't Post

http://manifestmaster.com/video/aff_oops.wmv

This is a video of a first AFF jump where she manages to lose both jumpmasters. Sorry I wasn't closer but I was diving after them with everything I had.

Tried to post to skydivingmovies.com but not having any luck


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Aug 20, 2007, 7:05 AM
Post #2 of 137 (9898 views)
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh Boy.
Interesting video.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Aug 20, 2007, 8:17 AM
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Without getting into the AFF Instructors there.. Why in the hell was the AFF1 Student wearing a Jumpsuit with Booties?? Is that common?

Also the Student looked like they did as trained pretty well. Definitely tried to Arch when they lost the instructors and Pulled somewhat belly to earth.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Aug 20, 2007, 8:46 AM
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Re: [Thanatos340] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like the booties started tucked in.

Hi DocJ - I know at least one of the JMs. See you in a couple weeks


erikph

Aug 20, 2007, 9:07 AM
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

If the instructors would have succeeded in pulling for her, weren't you on course for a collision, diving after them on such a steep angle?


Reginald  (D 28162)

Aug 20, 2007, 9:12 AM
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow....


docjohn  (D 13182)

Aug 20, 2007, 9:33 AM
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Re: [erikph] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Replies:

She wasn't wearing booties.

I was diving after them but not directly above them. I was anticipating an open canopy at any time.

BTW, she's an amazing skydiver. This was about 3 months ago. She just got her A licence and has made 50 jumps. You can see her closing 6th at the beginning of this video on a leg grip.


BenediktDE

Aug 20, 2007, 9:43 AM
Post #8 of 137 (9751 views)
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

WOW, very well done by the student deploying and not panicing after that ride. What AFF Level was this?


tombuch  (D 8514)

Aug 20, 2007, 9:59 AM
Post #9 of 137 (9739 views)
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

That's some pretty terrible work by the AFF instructors. I don't want to speculate too much about the rotten exit and freefall because we all have troubles now and then. However, I'm especially bothered by the 15 seconds that transpired between when the student opened, and the instructors broke off from their insanely stupid two person geek-the-camera effort, and I wonder when the instructors actually opened.

Ideally, in that kind of situation, one instructor should have cleared his/her airspace as soon as the student was opened, and then dumped quickly to remain close to the students altitude and assist with parachute navigation and selection of an alternate landing area, if needed. The other instructor should bee-line to the ground to clue in the radio operator and prepare to pick the student up at an off field landing location if that becomes necessary. A student in that kind of situation will generally be panicked after opening and will really benefit from seeing the instructors canopy nearby.

Did that part of the jump bother anybody else?

It's bad enough that instructors these days are jumping such tiny parachutes that they can't stay up with a student under canopy, but they should at least try. Especially on a level 1 that went to garbage on the exit.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Aug 20, 2007, 10:49 AM
Post #10 of 137 (9710 views)
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Did the instructors have anything to say about why things went to shit like that, and how they could have handled it differently?

Did the first instructor let go intentionally, to allow the other instructor to get the student stable?

My AFFI is all of 2 months old, so I'm still learning Cool


labrys  (D 29848)

Aug 20, 2007, 11:58 AM
Post #11 of 137 (9661 views)
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
AFF Student Loses both instructors

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say:

"both instructors lose aff student"

I'm not an AFFI, but I have wondered what the best response to a situation like that would be. I've never gotten around to asking someone at my DZ if there is a protocol to follow when a student is open that high. The post Tom made above seems like the most rational response to me but as stated..I'm not trained.

Would someone wearing a relatively high performance canopy have a chance of staying close enough to the student to provide any assistance? Do any DZs teach students to look for and/or follow an instructor under canopy if they deploy high?

Should AFF instructors consider lighter wind loadings in case they find themselves in this situation with a student or is it so rare that it would be more an impediment on most jumps?


labrys  (D 29848)

Aug 20, 2007, 1:12 PM
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Re: [tombuch] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
However, I'm especially bothered by the 15 seconds that transpired between when the student opened, and the instructors broke off from their insanely stupid two person geek-the-camera effort, and I wonder when the instructors actually opened.

It appears that that part of the video has been edited out subsequent to the original post so that it won't bother anyone else. Crazy


tdog  (D 28800)

Aug 20, 2007, 2:00 PM
Post #13 of 137 (9579 views)
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Re: [tombuch] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Ideally, in that kind of situation, one instructor should have cleared his/her airspace as soon as the student was opened, and then dumped quickly to remain close to the students altitude and assist with parachute navigation and selection of an alternate landing area, if needed.

You made me think a bit about this...

I know, even after tracking just a little bit away from a higher level AFF student and pulling, I am still far enough below the student that I can't identify much other than canopy color and if it is flying straight.

I know, because I tend to look on every jump after I deploy.

If I entered a high pull situation, even hanging in brakes on a canopy loaded 1.4 (not a tiny velo), I am going to out fly the student and never get back up to their altitude.

And, if the uppers are cooking bad enough that the student might land out, I may land out differently than the student, thus making the ground crew work twice as hard to find two people.

I think the key is quick radio contact, whether the radio operators were the AFFIs on the jump or the ones on the ground. "Great job, now fly that direction for a while and look around and enjoy the view. You are doing great up there, everything is alright."

The jury in my mind is still out - if I would stay up with the student or both Is b-line for the ground.


docjohn  (D 13182)

Aug 20, 2007, 2:30 PM
Post #14 of 137 (9562 views)
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Re: [labrys] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It appears that that part of the video has been edited out subsequent to the original post so that it won't bother anyone else.

You are correct regarding the editing. I posted this video to give kuddos to the student, not to bash the instructors. Once the criticisms began, I decided to protect the AFF instructors and edited the video.

Apologies to them.


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 20, 2007, 4:29 PM
Post #15 of 137 (9518 views)
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Protect them from what?


skybeergodd

Aug 20, 2007, 6:11 PM
Post #16 of 137 (9480 views)
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

what type of plane is that? kinda looks like a beech99....also on video it looked as if the reserve side JM left a little late and if that plane had any speed on jumprun that almost always leads to a tumble....looks as if those two need to work on "flushing" off a student. I personally like reserve side flushes and main gets control, so there is no guess work as to who is really in control,,exit starts to go bad and the reserve side knows to flush, get away from any potential tumble and immediately start getting back into the open what ever side it's on after the tumble.
I've got almost 1000 AFF JM jumps and I really can not think of a good reason for a student to be alone in freefall except for poor JM communication, poor JM flying or in very rare instances-equipment emergencies.
On the positive note...your original reason to post this(the student being heads up) was right on..She did an excellent job staying heads up and remembering her ground training.


(This post was edited by skybeergodd on Aug 20, 2007, 6:12 PM)


lowpull  (D 18385)

Aug 20, 2007, 7:17 PM
Post #17 of 137 (9452 views)
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Re: [docjohn] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's horseshit that you feel the need to "protect" the guilty here.

Many of us know what happened here, and I saw the original posting of the video.

This was nothing less than piss poor flying by two supposedly professional skydiving instructors.

By not showing the comedy of errors that is this jumps does nothing more than condone horrible flying by the instructors.

Ralph Nichols
AFF I 08


freefalle  (D 27777)

Aug 20, 2007, 8:51 PM
Post #18 of 137 (9431 views)
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Re: [lowpull] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

? Another argument that "getting an instructor rating is too easy"? My question is what action did the DZO who is responsible for the safety of that student take?


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Aug 20, 2007, 10:45 PM
Post #19 of 137 (9409 views)
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Re: [skybeergodd] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not an AFFI, so could you explain the term "flushing" please? Thanks.


Sockpuppet  (Student)

Aug 20, 2007, 11:45 PM
Post #20 of 137 (9402 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if she passed that jump.

Ok, didn't go the way they wanted it to go but looked like she knew what was happening.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Aug 21, 2007, 2:48 AM
Post #21 of 137 (9375 views)
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Re: [skybeergodd] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've got almost 1000 AFF JM jumps and I really can not think of a good reason for a student to be alone in freefall except for poor JM communication, poor JM flying or in very rare instances-equipment emergencies.

Agreed. I do understand it can happen. I've dropped off on reserve side before at the request of the other Inst. (Meaningful eye contact and a mouthed "Fkof") The deal is pretty simple for main side. Keep your hands shut, and don't leave unless the ripcord is pulled by the student, or you have it with you. I would say the only "good" reason would be a premature deployment on the main Inst's rig - but that has it's own issues.

Sometimes stuff happens.

I can't imagine using a canopy that would keep me up with or in the zone with an AFF student loaded to 0.5, which is where a 45kg (100lb) student would be on our gear. Wearing a rig that size would certainly prevent me from being able to match her fallrate - and as an AFF I - that's where my primary focus lies.

t


tombuch  (D 8514)

Aug 21, 2007, 5:09 AM
Post #22 of 137 (9335 views)
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Re: [labrys] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


I'm not an AFFI, but I have wondered what the best response to a situation like that would be. I've never gotten around to asking someone at my DZ if there is a protocol to follow when a student is open that high. The post Tom made above seems like the most rational response to me but as stated..I'm not trained.

Would someone wearing a relatively high performance canopy have a chance of staying close enough to the student to provide any assistance? Do any DZs teach students to look for and/or follow an instructor under canopy if they deploy high?

Should AFF instructors consider lighter wind loadings in case they find themselves in this situation with a student or is it so rare that it would be more an impediment on most jumps?

An AFF-I has a responsibility to stay with the student on a premature opening as best as possible. If that means a larger canopy, then so be it. I fly a Sabre 120 loaded at 1.6, and with rear risers I can stay pretty close to most students for at least a few thousand feet. At worst, I can stay close enough, long enough, to be recognized and to lead the way to a selected off airport field. I've used the technique a few times with AFF students who opened high (or who were opened high).

A premature student opening is rare, but when a student has two instructors, one should open with the student on just about every jump, and certainly on a level 1. Not only does it help the student, but the instructor can often watch to see where the student is looking, and specifically what he/she is doing, at least for the first part of the canopy flight.

Two AFF-I's doing RW after a level one really cheats the student. The same goes when both instructors smoke it down to make a back-to-back. We are supposed to be professionals and to place the needs of the student first on every jump.

DZ's should still be teaching students to find their instructor and follow back to the airport in case of radio failure. It may be that the instructor is much lower (especially on a one JM skydive), but they should still know to look for the instructor. That's also an important skill to learn for future jumps when a jumper is more experienced and jumping at an unfamiliar airport. Finding other jumpers and following them back has saved my bacon a few times.


skybeergodd

Aug 21, 2007, 6:34 AM
Post #23 of 137 (9299 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Flushing is the term we use meaning on a two JM dive if exit or freefall goes bad then 1 JM lets go. It's much easier for 1 JM to flip over a student on whoes on their back. Once the student is back belly to earth then the other JM can fly back into their slot.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Aug 21, 2007, 6:58 AM
Post #24 of 137 (9281 views)
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Re: [skybeergodd] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Flushing is the term we use meaning on a two JM dive if exit or freefall goes bad then 1 JM lets go. It's much easier for 1 JM to flip over a student on whoes on their back. Once the student is back belly to earth then the other JM can fly back into their slot.

At our DZ, we agree that one instructor will 'fly' (usually reserve side), the other instructor will 'ride' when we anticipate a particularly sporting exit, for the same reasons. It works, and we can talk about it in front of the student, and they have no idea what we're talking about.


SpecialKaye  (D 21802)

Aug 21, 2007, 8:58 AM
Post #25 of 137 (9225 views)
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Re: [tombuch] AFF Student Loses both instructors [In reply to] Can't Post

As always Tom, good post.


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