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Brake line busted: best response?

 

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WingFlyer  (A License)

Jul 13, 2007, 12:15 AM
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Brake line busted: best response? Can't Post

If a brake line breaks during flight, and I'm way more than high enough to pull reserve. What should I do? I'm thinking this is defintely not serious enough to risk going to reserve. I would pop out the hook knife, and cut the other brake line then land on rear risers.

Is this a good course of action? Is there a better one?


MikiBee  (D 29449)

Jul 13, 2007, 12:25 AM
Post #2 of 73 (2623 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

why cut the other brake line??? just land on rears.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jul 13, 2007, 1:31 AM
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Re: [MikiBee] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
why cut the other brake line??? just land on rears.
He might be more current with emergency procedures than landing in rears.... I don't think that he has ever practiced flaring with rears and I would not like to have a high speed stall next to the ground. I would not do in flight rigging or testing new things in emergency situation. I read more incidents about experienced skydiviers solving the unsolvable than novices having a reserve ride. None would question after that was it or was not it the right thing to do.


freefalle  (D 27777)

Jul 13, 2007, 2:45 AM
Post #4 of 73 (2595 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

follow your emergency procedures, cut away and go to your reserve. I don't think with 30 jumps (AND THATS NOT A JAB AT YOUR JUMP #'s) that you have enough experience to land with rear risers, besides that, depending on how large your canopy is you may not be able to flare it with rear risers, I jumped a triathlon 220 for a long time, and I felt that canopy was a real bitch to flare with the rears. I did break a brake line on it once, my response was a reserve ride.

just my .02


kwmontreal  (D 25906)

Jul 13, 2007, 5:27 AM
Post #5 of 73 (2553 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no one answer to your question with the info you have supplied. Have you practices rear riser turns and flairs? With 30 jumps I would hope you have. I'll tell you the same thing I tell my students. You need to have a plan (a two part plan) for every jump. One part is freefall skills and the second is canopy skills. My SL students start practicing rear riser work on jump two or three. You need to learn and get reasonably proficient in many basic maneuvers a soon as possible in your jumping career. I call it the "TOOL BOX". You need to fill that tool box with skills that will help you avoid and or deal with unusual problems and situations that may "pop up".

If in this instance you have not done and rear riser work, or, are not proficient/comfortable .... I would not fault you for going to the reserve. You are at the point where your "toox box" should be getting full of knowledge and you should be practicing these skills so that when (and it usually does) the poop hits the fan, you can get the upper hand on "Mr Murphy".

There have been many articles and postings here and else where on the basic desirable skill sets you should be working on. PM me and I can send you a few. If you don't already have an instructor/coach/mentor working with you ..... you really need to find one! Challenge yourself and have fun!

Plan the jump .... and jump the plan.



Kent


wildfan75  (D 29536)

Jul 13, 2007, 6:19 AM
Post #6 of 73 (2529 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to laugh at this thread...it happened to me about 30-40 jumps ago.

You've got some good advice here.

On jump #42 I jumped my own rig for the first time (a 170 were as I had been jumping a 190). I stowed the brakes wrong and both fired on opening. One toggle flipped up into my lines and I could not get it. No matter how hard I pulled on that riser with my opposite hand I could not get it. I had plenty of time to think because since it was my first jump on this canopy, I pulled high. I decided not to cutaway because I had a fully inflated canopy above my head. I practice a couple of rear riser flares up top, the started conserving my energy for the real thing. I did not get a very good flare but knew all along I would have to do the PLF of a life time. I walked away but limping. Plain and simple, on this jump I should have cutaway, and you can believe that everyone let me know that. Your contrablility check includes being able to flare. It did not pass the test. I was lucky that I only sprained my knee a little.

On jump #213 (I think), six jumps after my rigger lengthened my brake lines, I did a hnp from 3k. I took about a 5-7 second delay to build up a little speed to prevent a super slow opening. Opened just fine and when I released the brakes, my left brake line broke at my toggle. Knowing that I left the plane at 3k and took a delay, I knew I had to make a decision. All that came across my head was the toggle incident jump, so I kicked my feet back, arched, put my hands on my handles, cutaway, pulled the reserve, and landed without any other incidents. I got on the ground and everyone asked if I thought about landing in rear risers. I explained my thought process above and they said, "You have over 200 jumps now and over 150 on that canopy. Your experience level is different". I hadn't really worked rear risers much in between the two so I didn't know that I can really get a good rear riser flare now. If I knew then what I know now, I would not have cutaway. You can be sure that I work with rear risers at least one jump every weekend.

After my experiences, my advice would be know if you can land on rear risers or get a good rear riser flare before you are faced with the decision to cutaway or not to cutaway.


superstu  (D License)

Jul 13, 2007, 6:53 AM
Post #7 of 73 (2517 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

the short version: land on rears, if you don't know how, ask the most knowledgable and/ or best canopy pilot on the DZ what goes into it.

i think all the responses that state "with your experience you should cut away..." really shows how outdated the training for novice jumpers is when it comes to canopy flight.

when you cut away you only have one shot at living left and that's your reserve and you're putting a lot of faith into that, especially if you have a working parachute over your head before hand. it would kind of suck to cut a good one away then have to deal with a bad one that is your last chance of survival.

edited to add: i've landed an 83sqft canopy straight in on rears and i've seen others land sub 90sqft canopies straight in on rears. it wasn't soft by any means but no one got hurt.


(This post was edited by superstu on Jul 13, 2007, 6:55 AM)


baseknut  (D 29908)

Jul 13, 2007, 7:39 AM
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Re:Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

rears


jimjumper  (D 11137)

Jul 13, 2007, 8:42 AM
Post #9 of 73 (2469 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

We teach our students that they need to have a controllable, landable parachute by the time they get to their decision altitude. That includes being able to flair the canopy for landing. I have had 4 instances of broken control lines. One resulted in a spinning malfuntion on opening that I cut away, 2 I landed using rear risers, and the most recent I cut away. I personally won't land anymore using rear risers when I have a perfectly good canopy on my back (that I packed myself by the way). Why get busted up trying to land a disabled canopy just to save a few dollars in gear and repack costs.


RB_Hammer  (B 29848)

Jul 13, 2007, 9:00 AM
Post #10 of 73 (2461 views)
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Re: [wildfan75] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good post. I have been working on using my rear risers, front risers, harness turns and of course toggles on a lot of my canopy flights. On my one trip so far to Skydive San Diego, I was fortunate enough to have Wyatt, sorry I can't remember his last name, of Icarus Canopies, take the time to show me some really good canopy skill drills. I have been using these to practice my canopy skills and I know I can turn and flare on rears. I have never done a landing on rears though, and have considered doing this but I am really apprehensive about it.
As I said, I know I can flare the canopy on rears, and have even fully stalled it then let it recover and re-inflate, at about 7000ft on rears.
The thing that makes me hesitant to try a landing on rears is that since all of the practice flares I have done with rears have been up high and I can feel the flare, I have not really had any point of reference to relate the degree of flare I am getting.
I would really like to have a few under the belt before I have to land on rears.
OK, nomex underwear on, begin the flames...Wink


Jeffrey  (C 12405)

Jul 13, 2007, 9:01 AM
Post #11 of 73 (2460 views)
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Re: [superstu] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

Letís not forget that landing a canopy with both control attached by the rear risers is not the same as doing it with one missing. If one control line is gone, the only stopping power you will get from that side is from the C & Dís only. The most critical stopping surface area (Dís to tail) from that side will be gone.

Jeff


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 13, 2007, 9:07 AM
Post #12 of 73 (2455 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

The correct answer to this question is different for every jumper and could be different on every jump. How many times have you practiced flaring with rears up high on the canopy you currently fly? How good was the spot? How many jumps have you already done that day (ie are you fresh or getting tired)?

Personally, if this happened on my next skydive I'd chop it and pull my reserve. I haven't practiced flaring with rears enough yet to be confident that I'd walk away from the landing and I've only put 3 jumps on a new-to-me, one size smaller canopy.

YMMV. I think that as long as the decision you make results in a safe landing, you made the right decision.


WingFlyer  (A License)

Jul 13, 2007, 10:11 AM
Post #13 of 73 (2426 views)
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Re: [Jeffrey] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Letís not forget that landing a canopy with both control attached by the rear risers is not the same as doing it with one missing. If one control line is gone, the only stopping power you will get from that side is from the C & Dís only. The most critical stopping surface area (Dís to tail) from that side will be gone.
Jeff
This was particularly what I was most interested - the assymetrical aspect here. *one*line busted. Presumable I should unstow the one that's not busted to level out, then I guess I don't need to cut it and can land on rears.


WingFlyer  (A License)

Jul 13, 2007, 10:20 AM
Post #14 of 73 (2421 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems the responses here reflect those of my instructors - varying stances on reserve pulling. Some instructors have said, unless you pass a controlability check (including flaring), cutaway and go for reserve.

Others think it's best not to risk your life on a last resort that may be worse than what you have over your head...a fully inflated, steerable and somewhat flareable canopy (which with enough skill can be landed softly.) I'll take busted legs over dead anyday....but then again, the reserve *probably* will open fine, and you'll save yourself some potential injury....or will you?

Here's what makes it even more tricky. I've never landed something the size of my reserve. ANd I *have* very frequently (almost every other jump) practiced rear risers flares. It's still not clear to me because I never wanted to risk using the rear risers for an actual landing...I didn't need to risk it. I dont know how well I would do with the timing near the ground. Probably do ok.

My main is a sabre 2 190 and the reserve is a PD reserve 176. 190 is the smallest I've jumped...so I think I'm leaning towards practicing more on the 190 rear risers, and not going reserve unless I really have to.

Come to think of it...whenever I get a lot more experience, I should probably borrow/rent a 170 7 cell so I can get used to what I would face with a reserve ride. It seems odd that the standard is to have a reserve smaller than your main...a size which most students/newbies have never flown. I'm I worrying too much here?


RB_Hammer  (B 29848)

Jul 13, 2007, 10:33 AM
Post #15 of 73 (2413 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
<snip>
Here's what makes it even more tricky. I've never landed something the size of my reserve. ANd I *have* very frequently (almost every other jump) practiced rear risers flares. It's still not clear to me because I never wanted to risk using the rear risers for an actual landing...I didn't need to risk it. I dont know how well I would do with the timing near the ground. Probably do ok.
This is my concern as well. I know I can flare it, but it does flare faster on rears and the timing thing worries me.
Guess I am just going to have to bite the bullet, do some rear riser landings and hope I don't bite the earth.
In reply to:
It seems odd that the standard is to have a reserve smaller than your main...a size which most students/newbies have never flown. I'm I worrying too much here?
My main is a PD Spectre 190, my reserve is a PD193...
These are the sizes I was recommended by my instructors and other experienced people.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 13, 2007, 10:41 AM
Post #16 of 73 (2409 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here's what makes it even more tricky. I've never landed something the size of my reserve.

Ummm... then why'd you buy it? Seems smarter to me to buy a reserve that you're confident you can land safely in a worst case scenario. Whatcha gonna do when you have to cut away and then maybe need to land that reserve in someone's backyard cuz the spot really sucked?

The manufacturer recommends that a novice not weigh more than 150 pounds out the door on a PD176R (here is PD's maximum weight chart). Despite what many "instructors" and "gear salespeople" seem to think, I think it's way smarter to listen to the people who build 'em when it comes to sizing.

In reply to:
Come to think of it...whenever I get a lot more experience, I should probably borrow/rent a 170 7 cell so I can get used to what I would face with a reserve ride.

Don't wait until you get more experience. For all you know, you're gonna need that reserve on your next skydive.

But don't jump a smaller main. PD has reserves set up as mains that they will send out for demo. Highly recommend that you get one and put a few jumps on it. ASAP. The sooner you get confident with your ability to land what's on your back, the better. It's also far better to discover that what you have is too small for your current ability/confidence level jumping it as a main in good conditions than to discover that on your first reserve ride - being alive and unbroken makes buying a larger one much easier.


WingFlyer  (A License)

Jul 13, 2007, 10:46 AM
Post #17 of 73 (2407 views)
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Re: [RB_Hammer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
Guess I am just going to have to bite the bullet, do some rear riser landings and hope I don't bite the earth.
I thought about then, but them I'm like...we'll if I'm going to risk it, I can risk it when I need to. If I bust myself trying it the first time, it might as well be to prevent the risk of deploying and landing a reserve.

Quote:
My main is a PD Spectre 190, my reserve is a PD193...
These are the sizes I was recommended by my instructors and other experienced people.
Again, differences here....I was told a 190 main by almost everyone, and that for that I need a 176 reserve because I can't fit a 190 reserve in there too without it being too tight. Going one size up in container makes the 190 kinda loosy goosy in there which they don't recommend.

They also said the PD reserve flies really well, more like a 190 and its a 7 cell. Still apprehensive about it.


OnYourBack  (D 25190)

Jul 13, 2007, 1:33 PM
Post #18 of 73 (2366 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Some instructors have said, unless you pass a controlability check (including flaring), cutaway and go for reserve.

I don't understand why people keep pointing out "including flaring." You can flare with your risers. You can turn left and right with your risers. Therefore, you can pass a controllability check without your toggles. Whether or not you have the skills or confidence to do that is ultimately up to you but one steering line gone is not an uncontrollable canopy. I have seen reserves fail more than once.


wildfan75  (D 29536)

Jul 13, 2007, 2:24 PM
Post #19 of 73 (2346 views)
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Re: [OnYourBack] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people have a harder time with rear risers than others. Upper body strength differs among everyone. Experience differes. I don't disagree with you except to say that everyone should, in a perfect world, be able to flare/steer with rears, but not everyone can.

I would like to add in regards to the comments about reserves failing, I think it's also important to have faith in your rigger and faith in your reserve.


Ironmanjay  (C 37414)

Jul 13, 2007, 3:31 PM
Post #20 of 73 (2318 views)
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Re: [WingFlyer] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Guess I am just going to have to bite the bullet, do some rear riser landings and hope I don't bite the earth.
I thought about then, but them I'm like...we'll if I'm going to risk it, I can risk it when I need to. If I bust myself trying it the first time, it might as well be to prevent the risk of deploying and landing a reserve.

Quote:
My main is a PD Spectre 190, my reserve is a PD193...
These are the sizes I was recommended by my instructors and other experienced people.
Again, differences here....I was told a 190 main by almost everyone, and that for that I need a 176 reserve because I can't fit a 190 reserve in there too without it being too tight. Going one size up in container makes the 190 kinda loosy goosy in there which they don't recommend.

They also said the PD reserve flies really well, more like a 190 and its a 7 cell. Still apprehensive about it.

I was in the same boat you are in a few months ago, with the same amount of jumps. I wanted a 190 main and a 190 reserve, because Ive never jumped a 176r before. So it took me some time but I found an Infinity I-55,which I love, with a PD 190R, and a fusion 190 main. It is a tight fit but at least I know I can land my main or reserve any where I want. ANd now I can downsize my main when im ready and still have a nice large reserve when I need it Wink


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jul 13, 2007, 4:25 PM
Post #21 of 73 (2303 views)
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Re: [OnYourBack] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't understand why people keep pointing out "including flaring." You can flare with your risers. You can turn left and right with your risers. Therefore, you can pass a controllability check without your toggles.

The Tri220 I used to have (and the 210 I still have) will turn with risers, but its not exactly a speedster in doing it. And when it came time to do some intentional stalls, it took time and considerable force to make it happen.

And let's not get into front riser inputs...


superstu  (D License)

Jul 13, 2007, 4:37 PM
Post #22 of 73 (2297 views)
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Re: [Jeffrey] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Letís not forget that landing a canopy with both control attached by the rear risers is not the same as doing it with one missing. If one control line is gone, the only stopping power you will get from that side is from the C & Dís only. The most critical stopping surface area (Dís to tail) from that side will be gone.

Jeff

so release the brake that is still stowed or stop pulling it down.

do NOT try to land with one rear riser and one toggle. it can be done but will most likely put you into a low turn situation and you will hit the ground hard.


WingFlyer  (A License)

Jul 13, 2007, 5:53 PM
Post #23 of 73 (2282 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

"The Tri220 I used to have (and the 210 I still have) will turn with risers, but its not exactly a speedster in doing it. And when it came time to do some intentional stalls, it took time and considerable force to make it happen. "

Am I missing something? Are there canopies that can't be turn with rear risers? I could make a 290 bank hella hard with rear riser input. Same for flaring it. I weigh 200lbs.


hookitt  (D License)

Jul 13, 2007, 6:29 PM
Post #24 of 73 (2274 views)
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Re: [superstu] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
do NOT try to land with one rear riser and one toggle.

Something to think about, with practice and with a large docile canopy (.8ish to 1 wing load or less), this is actually a pretty good way to flare. Since I have no practical experience with this move at higher wing loads, my input is in regards to the lighter wing load only.

There is more control surface available. Practice flaring and when it comes to the real thing, PLF whether you need to or not. Many fixed object jumpers practice this move as it's far superior method in that type of Environment.

NOTE: (serious note by the way) At 30 jumps, I wouldnít suggest it, however, if for some reason you are too low to deal with a cutaway, you must do something. Start practicing alternate canopy control methods right now. If you are faced with the scenario and need to quickly choose your next move, your decision will be a more informed decision.

After opening, perform the control check then ask a few questions.

**** Did it pass the control check?
With a broken control line the answer is sort of. Are you skilled enough to deal with sort of? 2 answers are available. Yes or no. Take your pick and be honest. Don't let what you think other people will say, make you second guess your decision.

Answer 1) Yes. Deal with it and land what you got.
Answer 2) No. Proceed with cutting away then pulling the reserve.

Unfortunately in real life, Answer 2, is often maybe. I would rather not say that but it's true. Don't let *maybe* screw with your head too long. There is a reason to establish an altitude hard deck and stick with it. When you get to it, you should know exactly what to do. The *maybe* your head is messing around with, needs to become yes or no by the hard deck or before the hard deck.

A few things:

The issue with landing using only rears, especially without the trailing edge confined, is the ease of stalling. If the user flares too aggressively, at a normal toggle flare height, the canopy stops, stalls, then falls backward and conveniently plants the jumper on his/her back from the height the stall occurred. From my observations, this seems to occur around 10 feet. The placement onto the ground is not graceful. Plain and simple, it's a back drop. OUCH. Possible Ambulance or helicopter ride to follow. The ambulance and helicopter comment is not to be taken lightly.

If the user has practiced riser flares, understands the characteristics of a riser flare, and concentrates on a smooth not so aggressive flare closer to the ground, then the landing can be very acceptable. Experience is the only way to understand and truly grasp how the canopy will react. If you don't understand it or grasp it very well, use your head and act in a timely manner.

I've watched plenty of rear riser landings end in stalling the canopy then falling onto the back. I've also watched successful rear riser landings. (I'm not talking about high performance landings). I've watched a couple riser/toggle landings as well.

I've personally landed a large canopy with just rear risers and also using 1 rear riser and 1 toggle. 1 rear riser and one toggle worked out easier. Remember though, my time under a parachute is pretty high so the "maybe" became a yes pretty quickly.

Re-cap:

Control Check. Does it pass?

Yes > Deal with it and land it
No > Cutaway pull then pull the reserve handle
Maybe <== maybe sucks ... but again, this happens in real life. Figure it out quick and act accordingly

Hope that helps

--


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 13, 2007, 7:13 PM
Post #25 of 73 (2262 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Brake line busted: best response? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Control Check. Does it pass?

Yes > Deal with it and land it
No > Cutaway pull then pull the reserve handle
Maybe <== maybe sucks ... but again, this happens in real life. Figure it out quick and act accordingly

Yeah, it's that "maybe" area that could really screw you.

I had two broken D lines on opening a few years ago. When my brain rejoined me, I checked altitude and I was just above my hard deck. Did a control check and it kinda flared... so I decided to land it, which in hindsight was not the correct decision. But I was unsure about my ability to land the reserve on my back safely (was at a dz with a bit higher msl altitude than my home dz), I was supposed to do a couple more jumps that day (training camp) and I had never cutaway.

Other than a few scrapes and bruises and a really dirty rig and jumpsuit I came out of the landing okay. But if I find myself in a "maybe" situation again, you better believe it's gettin' chopped (assuming I'm at or above my hard deck, of course).


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