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Wrapping arms around Tandem Student

 


FrflyPimpDaddy  (D License)

Jun 26, 2007, 8:50 AM
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Wrapping arms around Tandem Student Can't Post

I am a new tandem instructor (sigma). I have less than 100 tandem jumps. In the past 20 or so jumps, for some reason, I have fallen into the habit of wrapping my arms around the student on opening. Usually, my arms are wrapped around them just under the arms. I do have to admit, that I do have a fear of my student falling from the harness. I know for a fact that the harness is on them properly, and we are hooked up properly, but that doesn't make the fear go away 100%. Aside from possibly offending a female student, what are the consequences of my actions? Is this something that I should stop NOW? I'm interested in your thoughts.


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 26, 2007, 8:55 AM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

I quit doing that at around 30 tandem jumps when we went head-low during the trapdoor, the bag bounced off the back of my legs, and we got slammed. If I have a special needs student of some sort (be it a physical disability or just a bad case of the stupids), I'll sometimes pull their forehead back with one hand during opening, but for the most part I prefer to pull the drogue release and just keep flying.

Blues,
Dave


GordonH  (D 9505)

Jun 26, 2007, 9:28 AM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm also a new TI this year, and after the training jumps, I started doing exactly the same thing as you for exactly the same reason.

I also wondered about how sensible it was, so asked my Tandem Examiner. He told me it was a very bad idea as it gives the student an opportunity to grab onto your arms - at exactly the time when you might need them to deal with a mal. I've now stopped doing it, but each time it is still tempting.

In reply to:
I am a new tandem instructor (sigma). I have less than 100 tandem jumps. In the past 20 or so jumps, for some reason, I have fallen into the habit of wrapping my arms around the student on opening. Usually, my arms are wrapped around them just under the arms. I do have to admit, that I do have a fear of my student falling from the harness. I know for a fact that the harness is on them properly, and we are hooked up properly, but that doesn't make the fear go away 100%. Aside from possibly offending a female student, what are the consequences of my actions? Is this something that I should stop NOW? I'm interested in your thoughts.


tonyhays  (D 26336)

Jun 26, 2007, 9:28 AM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

The student could get a strong grip on your arms when you do this. That would really suck if you had a malfunction and had to fight your student to let go of your arms so you could cutaway.


tonyhays  (D 26336)

Jun 26, 2007, 9:29 AM
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Re: [GordonH] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

D'oh! Tongue Beat me to it!


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jun 26, 2007, 9:52 AM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Wrapping the arms, too close of a camera man and a surging canopy lead to the fatality in Richmond about 2 years ago where the cameraman fell into the deploying pair.


Kimblair13  (D 28140)

Jun 26, 2007, 12:32 PM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Student can get a good hold on you. Can go head low on opening. And being a girl I know for sure if I saw my tand vid and noticed my TI grabbing me like that I would definately be offended.
If you're worried about them falling out...hook their feet right before you deploy. They would only fall out if their legs were to fling really far forward. If you have them hooked so they can't...you're golden.


stratostar  (Student)

Jun 26, 2007, 2:07 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't forget the legs being wraped. While this did make for a "serge" of some sorts by the TDM downward and forward, the biggest/main reason for that death is the camera man flying in a NO FLY ZONE!

As to the OP, I wouln't want a PAX grabing my hands when I might need them the most.


steveorino  (D 26782)

Jun 27, 2007, 5:00 AM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Kim (If you're worried about them falling out...hook their feet right before you deploy. They would only fall out if their legs were to fling really far forward. If you have them hooked so they can't...you're golden. )

Initially, after flying 800 or so videos of a certain TM, I picked up this habit of grabbing student to protect them . Very shortly after I began doing tandems I quit doing that.

#1 I didn't like a few shots I saw of me grabbing the tandem student.

#2 It is better to look up an watch the canopy and fly it through openings ... less line twists that way.


(This post was edited by steveorino on Jun 27, 2007, 5:01 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 27, 2007, 9:07 AM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

A petite (maybe 100 pounds and 5 feet tall) German girl cured me of that habit 20 years ago.
Something about her having a DEATH GRIP on my left thumb - while we roared through opening altitude!
Hint!
This was back in the days when Vectors barely had one drogue release handle - on the left side - and many years before Cypres was invented.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 27, 2007, 9:09 AM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

If you worry about students falling out of the harness, invest in a Y-strap and double-check, triple-check, quadruple-check their harness.

Oh!
And forget about you preventing them from falling out of the harness. There is no way you half enough muscle.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Jun 28, 2007, 8:26 PM
Post #12 of 24 (2191 views)
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't wrap my arms around my students, I put my hands on thier upper arms (bicepts) once we are opening. I fly my arms big after pulling to keep us flying during the trap door and then once we are vertical hold their arms away from my handles. They cant grab me that way and they cant get to my handles either.

once we are open my hands are just lightly holding their arms down and we start talking.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 28, 2007, 10:59 PM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

I prompt my students to bring their arms out, but I never give them any indication that I am going to deploy the chute unless they are doing at Cat A or Cat B tandem. Beyond that, I simply do a jaunty salute to the vidiot and then deploy the main. If the passenger is a fat fucker, then I hook my arms under theirs at pull time. I don't EVER grab tits these days. It's just stupid.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Jun 29, 2007, 10:09 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And forget about you preventing them from falling out of the harness. There is no way you half enough muscle.

You don't need muscle, but a good trap of the legs to keep them from folding in half on opening will keep all their weight on the legstraps.

No one should ever even question the fact that their students are going to stay in the harness or they should not let them make a tandem. Y straps are a joke.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 29, 2007, 10:26 AM
Post #15 of 24 (2125 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Y straps are a joke.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Please explain in more detail.


Kimblair13  (D 28140)

Jun 29, 2007, 10:42 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't EVER grab titsthese days.

Crazy


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Jun 29, 2007, 7:44 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact that they are "needed" is a joke. If a person is outside the box enough to be a danger of falling out of a harness, they should not jump.

And Y straps should not be the solution of poorly adjusted harnesses. And I think that you will see in the future Y straps injuring people from being adjusted improperly. Bill Booth showed me his version at the symposium that had about 2 feet of give built in so a person really had to be out of the harnes before it got taught, but he also said he wont install it until an faa mandate makes him. It made me glad.

If instructors think the Y strap will keep their students in the harness, they need to relearn how to adjust the harness.

Now I only speak of sigma harnesses because thats all I jump. I do not have a strong rating and don't think I ever will unless they seriously redesign their rig.

But thats another discussion.


USPA  (D 81812)

Jun 29, 2007, 11:40 PM
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

On if the TM at our DZ did that in his early days also. He had a reserve ratio of 1 on 40 on a Eazy main. When he quit doing that it went a hole lot better.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 30, 2007, 8:23 AM
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Re: [USPA] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect that "buddy's" problem was losing stability - retracting control surfaces/arms - during a critical stage of opening sequence.

My leading cause of line twists is students throwing weird leg moves during opening shock.

Like I tell young tadnem instructors: "If the student does not want to arch, you will have arch enough for both of you ... and that means extending your hands and feet twice as far as the student."


Trae  (Student)

Jul 11, 2007, 3:36 PM
Post #20 of 24 (1807 views)
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Touching the passenger unneccessarily looks unprofessional and is.
making a habit of hooking arms or legs is limiting you from learning better ways of dealing with any problems you think you may be solving with all the passenger grabbing stuff.
It also generally detracts from the passengers experience having TM's grapple parts of their bodies during opening or at other times.

A pro asks before touching unless its "safety first ".


lowpull  (D 18385)

Jul 11, 2007, 7:09 PM
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Re: [Trae] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Gotta disagree.(sort of)

I DO NOT teach tandem I canidates to "grope" or get touchy feely with the students.

I DO however, teach them to steer the opening and control the students upper body with slight pressure on the students upper arms, on top of the shoulder, during opening snivel.

This helps more so now with the tapered or eliptical mains more and more dz's are buying and flying.

It does not distract from the students learning experience, and most of the times, they have no clue the I is controlling the deployment with their body weight.

Plus it keeps your hands above and behind the student, making it much harder for there to be any grabbing of handles by the student(which can and does happen) as they feel the opening shock and reach up to grab on as they feel the drogue release and canopy deployment.


groping... no

using every tool available to ensure the safest, best performance for the student. Absolutely.


ralph


bclark  (D 22626)

Jul 12, 2007, 6:27 AM
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Re: [lowpull] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Put the harness on right.
Don't fuck with your student and fly your self through the opening.
I have seen / experienced more problems with smooth freefall and deployment caused by the Tandem I worrying more about students body than flying themselves. Just my 2 cents.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 15, 2007, 8:58 AM
Post #23 of 24 (1679 views)
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Re: [bclark] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed. I tap their hands back to the harness and then ignore them during opening. I adjust the harness correctly on the ground and then trust Bill Booth's sewing skills to keep them where I need them to be. Smile


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Jul 26, 2007, 3:49 AM
Post #24 of 24 (1504 views)
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Re: [FrflyPimpDaddy] Wrapping arms around Tandem Student [In reply to] Can't Post

I fly through the opening - I don't touch my student. Once we are vertical my hands go high on the main risers prepared to deal with a malfunction if it happens.



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