Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Best Glide Ratio

 

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bdrake529  (D 29503)

Jun 12, 2007, 11:08 AM
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Best Glide Ratio Can't Post

I'm about to commit a taboo.

Which suit is best?

Flame away.

This question is addressed to those who have flown more than one of the various "top of the line high performance" suits out there currently. (V2, Ghost?, S6, Blade, Rigor Mortis, Mach One, Pro-Fly, GS1, etc...)

If you had to pick a suit (that you've previously flown) to set a personal glide ratio record, which suit would you choose?

I'm not interested in the "it's the pilot" rebuke. You're the pilot. The pilot isn't the variable in this question, the suit is.

I understand that different pilots with different body types and flying styles (and professional affiliations...) will pick different suits, but that's ok with me. This isn't science, it's curiosity.

Also, I'm not asking about which suit you think is more fun to fly, or better for flocking, or acrobatics, etc... I want to gather opinions on which suit you consider to be the all-out drag racer in your tool set.

Thanks,

Brian

p.s. I'm not trying to inspire a brand war. I'm just looking for personal opinions. Please only provide your favorite choice. There's no need to disparage other suits.


(This post was edited by bdrake529 on Jun 12, 2007, 11:10 AM)


Zeemax

Jun 12, 2007, 11:16 AM
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Re: [bdrake529] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Here we go again... Laugh

There are close to a million posts on this very subject and i think you'll find the things you say you are not interested in are the very things that will give you your answer.

Why do you want to know the answer? If it's because you're looking to buy one, try a few out. See what you like the most and what works for your level of skill.

If you're simply after the answer to "whats the best suit?" it's simple, the one you own Wink


Zoter

Jun 12, 2007, 11:27 AM
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Re: [Zeemax] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

I thinks thats slightly harsh Macca....

There is a thirst for this knowledge out there for sure , and trying to pick out the gems of 'true' unbiased opinions from those of the experinced die hard brand fans ( and you ...and we...all know who you are) is very difficult.

I have very little wingsuit experience but I do agree it is almost impossible to put one wingsuit on a pedastal above all others...it does depend on the pilot, the flights he like sto make and the conditions he makes them in..

Hows about some unbiased, brand promoting discussion on the specific performance characteristics/benefits of each suit as a basis for showing whats the best suit for a variety of situations/flight types.

It is getting harder to read thru all the 'brand talk'..
I'd love to demo a Blade, V2, Mach 1, Ghost , Rigor Mortis, ProFly...but thats easier said than done


(This post was edited by Zoter on Jun 12, 2007, 11:30 AM)


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jun 12, 2007, 11:38 AM
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Re: [Zeemax] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're simply after the answer to "whats the best suit?" it's simple, the one you own Wink
What if you don't own one? What if you own several?


bdrake529  (D 29503)

Jun 12, 2007, 11:44 AM
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Re: [Zoter] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

If you've flown a Classic and a Blade, which would you choose (you're the pilot) to try for a personal best in glide ratio?

I think the answer is very obvious there and I'd be very surprised to hear someone claim they get better performance from a Classic.

The manufacturers rank their own product lines based on performance. So comparison between suits must be possible on some level.

I'm not digging for the objective "best suit out there" declaration. I'm soliciting subjective opinions.

For example, I know a guy that prefers to fly his Acro, but puts on his V2 when he wants to go fast and far. I'm looking for personal testimonies to that effect.

I already have the "best" suit, the one I own and love flying. I'm not trying to find out which is the "best suit" (that line was a joke!!!). I'm interested in what people consider would give them the best glide ratio.

I suspect all of you have a legitimate answer to my question. If I were to put up a million dollars to the person who could get the greatest glide ratio using any suit they wanted, there wouldn't be the same hemming and hawing.

Answering this post isn't mandatory. If the question is indeed frivolous, no one is being coerced to respond.


Why this question? I'm bored and work is slow.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Jun 12, 2007, 12:23 PM
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Re: [bdrake529] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I already have the "best" suit, the one I own and love flying. I'm not trying to find out which is the "best suit" (that line was a joke!!!). I'm interested in what people consider would give them the best glide ratio.

The Blade Im currently flying gives me the best performance...whatever or whichever that may be in numbers... Ive tried a V1 and V2 and I personaly sucked flying it. My flying style mostly resembled a german U-boat impression. But thats just my lack of experience in that suit.
I honestly have no doubt, that given some proper jumps (just like any suit) I could learn to fly it, and fly it well. And its the top of the line in performance from PF.

The Blade Im flying now is the top of the line in performance from birdman. Having flown all suits from Classic to Gti, S1, S3, S6 and now the Blade, there is no doubt about its performance. Its beyond the previous products.

But which suit is better? No clue...and Ive jumped with a lot of people flying v1s/2s. Granted, breakoff is the only time you can sort of compare.

At breakoff, costyn, tristan and I are always racing. Tristan in a V2. Costyn and I in Blades.
And (costyn, tristan, correct me if Im wrong or saying something not true here?) Everyone has his good days and bad days. And it depends how aggressive you are at breakoff. But the differences at breakoff are or always seem quite minimal. Sometimes one is higher/further, with enough altitude to do a turn and a flyby past the other one already under canopy. Sometimes the other. And that just 2 brands/suits/models. The performance rougly seems to be the same. Aside from maybe one being a better pilot..I dont think it differs that much..

Yet people online talk like its 100 km/h differences, going from one suit to another..."OMFG! THIS SUIT IS SO FAST!" quoted over and over.

Its different flying styles, and its me flying a suit Im used to. And its tristan flying a suit he is used to. And should we ever switch suits and fly em long enough. I have no doubt we'll learn to fly em to the max at some point.

But I just dont believe there is any use in comparing suits.
The performance differences in top of the line suits are SO MINIMAL!


Look at the contest people have held so far..everyone tries to compare, yet always ends up with 200000 variables. From someone being tired, so fat, to tall or short, a shitty exit, diarea..and now honestly tell me if they ever expect a definitive answer?

And many people who over the past years upgraded from one suit to another see their distance/performance better...but is that purely the suit. Or also the added hundreds of jumps/experience, them flying better? Its impossible to tell it with 100% certainty.

Seeing what people do in suits..I truly believe Mach1s, Blades, V2s all having roughly the same performance envelope...be it a few % less or more. And some suits are easyer on the muscles, other fly better or worse on the bacl. But talking about their straight, bellyflying performance its not something we're ever going to find out with a 100% quotable/written/measured certainty.

No matter how many posts people do on the 'math' of flight.
Its still humans flying the suit. And even though an increased angle of attack of 0.0004372 degrees might give me a better glide. I for one, can not possition my body to that detail/precission. And think anybody who claims they can should start selling widescreen TVs to blind people.
Flying a suit. Its all about feeling what your body is doing, and not about calculating numbers...unless Im doing something wrong..


hit the search button, type best suit/best glide, best whatever..and each wil get you over 2000 hits. Its been debated..debated...debated...and aside from personal preferences and people constantly switching between crediting or discrediting the pilot, and then when its suits them at other times the suit. There just isnt a definitive answer..and there never wil be..

Just get any top of the line suit from any manufacturer...and look at what each suit offers. easy to fly. heavy to fly. backflying. Or it gets you the image or look you want. be it in base or in skydiving..whatever...

But just going for a manufacturer you like, and getting their top of the line suit will no doubt get you something that matches what other people are flying from other manufacturers...

Sfly pro, Mach1, Blade, V2...they're all formula 1 cars..and arguing which one is best is 100% pointless..

Any manufacturer wil claim the same thing..and have their best pilots fly the suits to prove just that...

And I think most of them are going to be in a world of pain, seeing Loic is now also entering the big suit arenaTongue


(This post was edited by mccordia on Jun 12, 2007, 1:37 PM)


bdrake529  (D 29503)

Jun 12, 2007, 12:29 PM
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Re: [mccordia] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Jarno,

Thank you. That is exactly the kind of response I was looking for.

Very informative.


Thanks,

Brian


aarthus

Jun 12, 2007, 1:21 PM
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Re: [mccordia] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Very nice Post WinkCoolCoolCool !!!


KrisFlyZ  (C 34590)

Jun 12, 2007, 1:27 PM
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Re: [mccordia] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

No longer needed.


(This post was edited by KrisFlyZ on Jun 12, 2007, 2:33 PM)


robibird  (D 404)

Jun 12, 2007, 2:07 PM
Post #10 of 54 (3202 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:

No matter how many posts people do on the 'math' of flight.
Its still humans flying the suit. And even though an increased angle of attack of 0.0004372 degrees might give me a better glide. I for one, can not possition my body to that detail/precission. And think anybody who claims they can should start selling widescreen TVs to blind people.

very ignorant approach mccordia...
The human flying is not just math and theory, I agree w you in this but.... certainly can't be developed with the theory behind., keep this in mind too.
Lack of understanding offten producing ignorance as the easiest answer.Frown


mccordia  (D 94775)

Jun 12, 2007, 2:16 PM
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Re: [robibird] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
very ignorant approach mccordia...
The human flying is not just math and theory, I agree w you in this but.... certainly can't be developed with the theory behind., keep this in mind too.
Lack of understanding offten producing ignorance as the easiest answer.Frown

Not ignorant...and not even lack of understanding..

Its just knowledge of which I know and have seen that few people need it to be able to fly to the max.
Tristan became #2 in the world cup, and I dont think he spends his nights analising data. He just flies..

You are talking about developing the actual suits and what makes them fly...and Im just talking about the skills it takes to fly them..and you dont get those from a math book...


(This post was edited by mccordia on Jun 12, 2007, 2:21 PM)


yuri_base

Jun 12, 2007, 2:33 PM
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Re: [robibird] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lack of understanding often producing ignorance as the easiest answer

In addition to that, do we ever hear "suits don't matter" from WS BASE jumpers? Or only from Gay Ballet (aka 'flocking') performers? Wink


mccordia  (D 94775)

Jun 12, 2007, 2:42 PM
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Re: [yuri_base] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In addition to that, do we ever hear "suits don't matter" from WS BASE jumpers?

No..because those make 5 skydives, then jump of a rock, and start bragging about their performance, and then expect al boosts in peformance to come from the suit..then come to a dropzone, and make a 90 second skydive, flying half the distance the gay ballet performers do when they max out for fun...

(and then reach for their mathbook to justify..Wink)


robibird  (D 404)

Jun 12, 2007, 2:45 PM
Post #14 of 54 (3161 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In addition to that, do we ever hear "suits don't matter" from WS BASE jumpers?

No..because those make 5 skydives, then jump of a rock, and start bragging about their performance, and then expect al boosts in peformance to come from the suit..then come to a dropzone, and make a 90 second skydive, flying half the distance the gay ballet performers do when they max out for fun...

(and then reach for their mathbook to justify..Wink)

ha, haa... that was great description!! Smile


chrisgray  (D License)

Jun 12, 2007, 2:56 PM
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Re: [mccordia] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Very good points McCordia and thank you for keeping it short & to the point.....lol.

For the pilot it is all about feel and like Robi explained for the designer it is also about finite data and precision measurements.

The Blade vs. V-2 vs. Mach 1 battle can only be decided by you flying all of them and deciding which is best for you particularly which one suits your body type & style of flying.
All three are spectacular designs.

-Chris-


sdctlc  (D 16437)

Jun 12, 2007, 5:03 PM
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Re: [chrisgray] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Blade vs. V-2 vs. Mach 1 battle ....
-Chris-

Dont forget to add the new PF Ghost in that list..

But that sadi I agree different suits will suit different people and styles. The old saying comes to mind
---> A superior pilot in an inferior "wingsuit" will more often out perform an inferior pilot in a superior "wingsuit"...

Scott C.


aarthus

Jun 12, 2007, 9:51 PM
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Re: [sdctlc] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Finally.... !!, it starts making sense ! Keep going !Cool

Le Pat


(This post was edited by aarthus on Jun 12, 2007, 10:01 PM)


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Jun 13, 2007, 12:09 AM
Post #18 of 54 (3006 views)
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Re: [bdrake529] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

The best suit for me is the one I jump.. right up until I order a new one. Then the best suit is the one I've ordered. Until I get it. Then the best suit is the next one I want. What we want is always more valuable than what we have. It's a circle of greed.

t


KrisFlyZ  (C 34590)

Jun 13, 2007, 12:21 AM
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Re: [mccordia] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

The difference is not in the brand of the suit.

The difference is in how the area is distributed. You made a comment( albeit jokingly) that a lot of V2s were for sale. A few people complained about not being able to flock easily in a V2.

What is the characteristic of the V2 that makes flocking in the suit a pain? It is the balance of the suit. There is no math...just common sense, should people choose to use it Tongue.

Look at the attached picture...what happens when that suit if flown with the knees bent?...the amount of available area becomes relatively less. This makes flocking with the knees bent hard.

The opposite is true for suits that have a lot of arm wing area and relatively less legwing area. They are a joy to flock in but a pain to fly for max performance.

Given my choice of flying style it should be no surprise then that the three suits I own have the same kind of balance.

V2, Rigor Mortis and the Trigger.

Kris.
Attachments: BlueOV2s.JPG (101 KB)


Airowpoint  (C 94738)

Jun 13, 2007, 2:30 AM
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Re: [mccordia] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Jarno, I agree completely with your entire post which says a lot coming from a nonconformist like me. However, I think you're entire post is a wasteTongue.
Although it's useless, I for one like to compare suits (and I know for a fact you do tooSmile). By now there are more posts complaining about people wanting to compare suits and telling them not to fuel a brand war than actual comparisons.

Unfortunately I can not comment on my suit preference at this point of time since I will not be making the same mistake of bashing a suit I still have to sellTongue.


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

Jun 13, 2007, 6:50 AM
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Re: [Tonto] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's a circle of greed.

You say that like it's a bad thing! Wink

-Blind


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Jun 13, 2007, 7:27 AM
Post #22 of 54 (2865 views)
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Re: [KrisFlyZ] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

 A few people complained about not being able to flock easily in a V2.

What is the characteristic of the V2 that makes flocking in the suit a pain? Kris.
It depends, if you are a lightweight the Vampire can be flown slowly a little bit easier. But the suit was never designed to hang back and float it was designed to fly from lift generated by speed. To fly slow you need to increase the camber or the armwing, the more you are loading it the more camber is needed. This can add strain and instability.

But if you flock where everyone is in Vampires then you get the picture.


ScottGray  (D 29628)

Jun 13, 2007, 8:03 AM
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Re: [mccordia] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Well stated, totally agree.

At some point we as human pilots just can not achieve the degree of adjustment to get the last few % of performance that is mathmatically posible. Good in theory, but not practical.

Also agree the Blade, V2, and Mach1 are at the top. Will also be interesting to see how the Ghost performs.

V2s are speed demons, Mach1s give you a huge wing and lots of glide. A question might be, are you looking for distance or time???

In addition, I have seen two different pilots (Scott C. being one) useing the Blade.

Scott can fly the hell out of the Blade with lots of range, flocking slow if needed or busting out some speed when desired. But of course it is Campos, the wingsuit sensei.


AveE  (D License)

Jun 13, 2007, 8:09 AM
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Re: [ScottGray] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Will also be interesting to see how the Ghost performs

slower, but stable as a rock while gripping :) nice flocking suit that works good on slower flocking speeds :)

we got one at our dz now (thanks to Robi) :)


pierre3636  (B 2466)

Jun 13, 2007, 8:23 AM
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Re: [Airowpoint] Best Glide Ratio [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Jarno - good post dude bit of a catch 22 I think - because we fly our bodies, the most efficient body shape or wing will be a variable - but the only way to improve production would be better design. My 2c.

So although 95% (or more) of the top end performance is attributed to the flyer the balance or less is made up from the individual suit. But if the designers (like in any individual racing sport - grand prix comes to mind) didnt push the smallest increments of design improvements or rather performance improvement we would reach a point where the suit made no more difference because the top fliers would all be on a very close performance (which is where it is at the moment in my mind there is no one suit that can guarantee MASSIVE improvement in flight performance rather 3 or 4 designs that have all improved dramatically off old designs but all pretty equal as things stand today).

In saying that our sport is quite new with hardly any performance competition yet what we need is to put the best of the best athletes against each other and through the stats of competition after competition start making some assumptions/inferments/plausable statements and explore more and more.

Its a rock and a hard place really.
And Im sure the debates will continue in the meantime.


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