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USPA election candidate opinions

 

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Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Nov 19, 2002, 7:00 PM
Post #176 of 303 (1219 views)
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Re: [RevJim] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

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May I suggest we start with Skydive Chicago? Was Roger breaking any of our rules when he allowed "Rook" and Missy to begin skydiving? How old were they?

Slightly different case, but why not call Roger and talk about it with him. Wink


RevJim  (C 33989)

Nov 19, 2002, 7:11 PM
Post #177 of 303 (1210 views)
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Re: [quade] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
May I suggest we start with Skydive Chicago? Was Roger breaking any of our rules when he allowed "Rook" and Missy to begin skydiving? How old were they?

Slightly different case, but why not call Roger and talk about it with him. Wink

Actually, we had a nice email chat about this awhile back. Let's just say if he was running again, he would be getting constant flak from me. Pompus asshole.


RevJim  (C 33989)

Nov 19, 2002, 8:03 PM
Post #178 of 303 (1189 views)
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Re: [skybytch] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I perused the USPA Governance Manual and found section 3-1.2.D.2 on page 40. "If appropriate, minimal editing of the biographical sketches by the committee is authorized to comform to the space available and to provide some uniformity of verbiage and presentation." (italics mine) This section seems to allow editing for reasons of grammar and punctuation, which, if read carefully, section 3-1.2.D.3.e also seems to allow for.

Lisa, you made it to page 40. Consider yourself in the elite of the membership. Many have no intention of ever opening that book.

Now, please advance a few more pages, to page 46 please.

On the bottom you will find this paragraph:
Quote:
The USPA Nominations and Elections Committee is empowered by USPA Governance Manual Section 3-1.2.D to edit the biographical information (but not the personal statement) to meet space limitations or to avoid even the appearance of misstatement of facts. However, some or all statements are subject to exclusion if the 250-word maximum is exceeded.
Yes, that is an exact quote. I added nothing to it.

Page 40 deals specifically with the form you will find on page 45. Page 46 is, as it was intended, to be left totally alone. The manual even goes as far as to suggest the candidate print carefully or use a typewriter, as they shall be reproduced exactly as submitted.


franck102  (A License)

Nov 19, 2002, 8:05 PM
Post #179 of 303 (1187 views)
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Re: [quade] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

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Exactly what would you have them do? Say that the rules matter for you and me, but because a certain BoD member wants his kids to jump at the WFFC -that- would be alright? Gimme a break! THAT would have been the outrage.

Off topic question: why does USPA have a rule about age limits? Couldn't they leave this as a business decision to each DZ? If someone gets sued wouldn't it be the DZ?

Franck


indyz  (D 28525)

Nov 19, 2002, 8:17 PM
Post #180 of 303 (1177 views)
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Re: [franck102] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Off topic question: why does USPA have a rule about age limits? Couldn't they leave this as a business decision to each DZ? If someone gets sued wouldn't it be the DZ?
When somebody gets sued in skydiving, everybody who is even remotely involved gets sued.


Jessica  (B 25202)

Nov 19, 2002, 8:30 PM
Post #181 of 303 (1166 views)
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Re: [bigjim] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

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I seems to me like you are looking more for an argument than an explanation.

No. If I wanted an argument I'd go bait wildblue in the Talkback forum. I'm honestly puzzled why some people think an argumentative [noun deleted to comply with "no personal attacks" rule] is a better representative for me as a "fun jumper" than someone who is a professional skydiver or DZO.

Oh, and Tom, great post.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Nov 19, 2002, 8:47 PM
Post #182 of 303 (1159 views)
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Re: [franck102] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

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Off topic question: why does USPA have a rule about age limits? Couldn't they leave this as a business decision to each DZ? If someone gets sued wouldn't it be the DZ?

Well, that's really a good question. Personally, I'd like to see it be more along the lines of the FAA age requirements for flying gliders, but that's not really my descision to make. Technically, as I'm sure you're aware, there is no FAA age requirement for skydiving.

However, as long as there -is- a USPA rule, all USPA Group Member drop zones ought to abide by it, if for some reason, they don't want to abide by it, then they should consider removing themselves from the Group Member program.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Nov 19, 2002, 9:08 PM
Post #183 of 303 (1150 views)
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Re: [franck102] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Off topic question: why does USPA have a rule about age limits? Couldn't they leave this as a business decision to each DZ? If someone gets sued wouldn't it be the DZ?

Franck

First, when the DZ is sued, everybody even remotely involved gets sued, including USPA.

Second, if a child is killed in our sport it will bring the wrath of parents and the FAA upon us faster than than you can say "pulverized dead baby." We would be hit with rapid and aggressive legislation in half-a-heart-beat. A few years ago a girl about 8 years of age was killed in a small plane accident as she flew cross country with an instructor. It was the top story on every newscast and in every paper for days, and the FAA made a quick effort to add new age limits for student pilots so that children could NEVER again touch the controls of an airplane. That legislative battle took enormous resources from AOPA, and I hope we learned their lesson.

I don't know if 18 or 16 is the best minimum age for skydiving. Or perhaps 14. Or maybe 12. Or heck, the perfect minimum age might even be 6. Whatever. If there is no regulatory limit some dropzone operators will lunge for the quick buck and take little kids. One of them will be hurt or killed, and our sport will suffer.

Is the minimum age a safety issue? Probably not, but it is a survival issue. Perhaps we should move the minimum age from the BSR's to the organizational charter, or to the group member agreement. Perhaps we should make it waiverable for special cases like the children of DZO's, or when a special training plan is presented.

Whatever. I know I don't want to see 6 year olds skydiving. And I don't want to read about them being killed in our sport.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Nov 19, 2002, 9:40 PM
Post #184 of 303 (1139 views)
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Re: [tombuch] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

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A few years ago a girl about 8 years of age was killed in a small plane accident as she flew cross country with an instructor. It was the top story on every newscast and in every paper for days, and the FAA made a quick effort to add new age limits for student pilots so that children could NEVER again touch the controls of an airplane. That legislative battle took enormous resources from AOPA, and I hope we learned their lesson.

To be accurate, the FAA did NOT attempt to do anything additional in regards to age requirements in the aftermath of the Jessica Dubroff accident. It was Congress which passed the "Child Pilot Protection Act" which only restricts child pilots from participating in record attempts on 10/9/96.

See http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/...;docid=f:publ264.104

The FAA is far more reasonable than most people give it credit.


(This post was edited by quade on Nov 19, 2002, 9:48 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 19, 2002, 9:43 PM
Post #185 of 303 (1133 views)
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Re: [quade] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

The biggest issue is merely the release of liability forms that you have to sign at a DZ to jump, for their own protection. That can not be signed by a guardian for an idividual and if a person under the age of 18 signs it, it won't necissarily be valid in a court of law.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Nov 19, 2002, 9:50 PM
Post #186 of 303 (1131 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps, but I see no issues whatsoever in allowing a DZO to take his own child skydiving -- other than the fact that it's against the USPA rules.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Nov 19, 2002, 9:54 PM
Post #187 of 303 (1128 views)
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Re: [quade] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Perhaps, but I see no issues whatsoever in allowing a DZO to take his own child skydiving -- other than the fact that it's against the USPA rules.

Agreed. So leave it as a "rule" and make it waiverable. Allow it in specific individual cases but not as a business plan.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Nov 19, 2002, 9:59 PM
Post #188 of 303 (1125 views)
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Re: [tombuch] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Again, that would require a change. Certainly not impossible, but if DZOs really -want - this so their kids can jump according to the USPA rules, then they should pursue it that way and not attempt to get exceptions when they're clearly not allowed by the current rules.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Nov 19, 2002, 10:05 PM
Post #189 of 303 (1119 views)
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Re: [quade] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To be accurate, the FAA did NOT attempt to do anything additional in regards to age requirements in the aftermath of the Jessica Dubroff accident. It was Congress which passed the "Child Pilot Protection Act" which only restricts child pilots from participating in record attempts on 10/9/96.
See
[/reply]

Amazing research. The specific element is number 602, for anybody interested.

The initial public/media outcry was for a complete ban on children flying. AOPA fought like crazy to limit the scope of the regulation. AOPA has far greater resources than USPA, and I doubt we would be able to hold off a similar attack.


buzzfink  (D 13652)

Nov 19, 2002, 10:07 PM
Post #190 of 303 (1116 views)
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Re: [tombuch] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

<<<Perhaps we should move the minimum age from the BSR's to the organizational charter, or to the group member agreement>>>

I believe that is where it belongs, the Group Member pledge, not the BSR's. It's not a safety issue. The problem with it being in the BSR's is that a Tandem Instructor works one weekend at a non-USPA GM DZ and takes up a 17 year old, legal with the FAA and not a safety violation, then they can lose their ratings.

Just my two cents.


Alan "Buzz" Fink


buzzfink  (D 13652)

Nov 19, 2002, 10:13 PM
Post #191 of 303 (1111 views)
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Re: [tombuch] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

<<<Perhaps, but I see no issues whatsoever in allowing a DZO to take his own child skydiving -- other than the fact that it's against the USPA rules.>>>

<<< Agreed. So leave it as a "rule" and make it waiverable. Allow it in specific individual cases but not as a business plan.>>>

So what criteria will be used for waivering it? If your dad or mom is a DZO you can get a waiver? That does not sound fair to me.

Blue Skies!


Alan "Buzz" Fink


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Nov 19, 2002, 10:14 PM
Post #192 of 303 (1109 views)
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Re: [tombuch] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Amazing research.

Believe it or not, I had 99% of that already in my head. I did have to look up the URL as backup. I was a flight instructor at the time.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Nov 19, 2002, 11:00 PM
Post #193 of 303 (1096 views)
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Re: [buzzfink] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Agreed. So leave it as a "rule" and make it waiverable. Allow it in specific individual cases but not as a business plan.>>>

So what criteria will be used for waivering it? If your dad or mom is a DZO you can get a waiver? That does not sound fair to me.
In reply to:

It should be waiverable in the same way any other rule is waiverable. The person requesting the waiver makes a request to the BOD and offers specifics. The BOD evaluates the request and makes a decision.

The most obvious case for a waiver would be the kids of a DZO, but it could be anybody. Perhaps you have a 15 year old cancer patient that really wants to make a jump. You design a program that adds safety by starting with a minimum number of days of observation on the DZ, and then includes tunnel time and a computer based parachute simulator. The BOD could evaluate that program as well as the specific student candidate, and then make a decision. It's not unfair at all.

Now the big question...would the BOD ever choose to waive the rule, knowing that if there is an accident it could come back to haunt them?

-tom buchanan


buzzfink  (D 13652)

Nov 19, 2002, 11:06 PM
Post #194 of 303 (1092 views)
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Re: [tombuch] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

<<<<Now the big question...would the BOD ever choose to waive the rule, knowing that if there is an accident it could come back to haunt them?

-tom buchanan>>>>>

I don't think someone should have to request a waiver. I just have trouble with USPA making it a BSR. I think it should be placed in the Group Member Pledge if it has to be there.

It does the same thing without punishing rating holders for safely working at non-USPA DZ's.



Alan "Buzz" Fink


Premier sangiro
Head Honcho
Nov 20, 2002, 2:00 AM
Post #195 of 303 (1080 views)
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Re: [RevJim] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

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If he does get elected, we will have one of the biggest, best, and loudest mouths in the BoD
I agree with the first and the third points....

You are the second person to assume because I don't buy Don's waffle that I don't understand what he means. I can assure you I have quite the ability to grasp complex arguments and discussions. This one is rather simple, no need to bold anything in a post to me. Don said that if elected he'll "give his all" for us. Well, all we want him to give us is his unchanged statement before he sues.

He's loud all right. He just doesn't say much.


(This post was edited by sangiro on Nov 20, 2002, 2:07 AM)


Vallerina  (C License)

Nov 20, 2002, 5:58 AM
Post #196 of 303 (1052 views)
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Re: [RevJim] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I'm not here begging for anyones vote and I really could care less if I'm elected or not.
I don't "want" to be on the Board.
all of the posters here should be able to read that statement and see exactly what it means.
Hey, Jim! Yes, I agree that what he may have meant, but uneloquently stated, however, let me point out another wonderful quote of his that reaffirms his decision in not representing us
Quote:
Laughing,
You all disgust me. I don't want your sissy ass votes.
Sissy ass votes or not, I'm sure quite a few people on here will grant his wishes. Most people don't like not being listened to and getting weak attempts at insults thrown at them by a possible "representative." He wants to represent me, but he hasn't even discussed issues which I find important. That's fine. I'm not going to prod him and not get a response. Instead, I voted for the candidates who willingly offered their thoughts/information in which I agreed with.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 20, 2002, 7:19 AM
Post #197 of 303 (1031 views)
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Re: [bigjim] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm really interested. Someone break this down for me.
Quote:

A fun jumper, as the term is generally used is, as you yourself said. someone who jumps purely for fun. That is to say someone who is not a student, an instructor, or a professional competitor.


I had fun when I was a student.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Nov 20, 2002, 7:24 AM
Post #198 of 303 (1024 views)
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Re: [kallend] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had fun when I was a student.
Yeah, me too. I also had fun when I was instructing.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 20, 2002, 8:55 AM
Post #199 of 303 (1057 views)
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Re: [skybytch] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

>Yeah, me too. I also had fun when I was instructing.

Perhaps, but it was not BOD-sanctioned fun. You'd need a waiver to have that.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 20, 2002, 9:20 AM
Post #200 of 303 (1043 views)
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Re: [skybytch] USPA election candidate opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I had fun when I was a student.
Yeah, me too. I also had fun when I was instructing.

OK, I'll qualify some more: I jumped PURELY for fun as a student. I had no other motive at all. Surely this made me a fun jumper even then.


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