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Whose fault was it?

 

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Melliandra  (B License)

Jun 6, 2007, 9:18 AM
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Whose fault was it? Can't Post

I did my fourth jump on Saturday. It was my second attempt at DRP so I was on a static line and supposed to be exiting around 3500ft.

Once I exited and went through my drills I was aware that I got to 2000ft pretty quick. I'd also noticed that the S/L infront of me had exited around 3000ft.

When my instructor got down he told me that he realised after he'd told me to go I'd exited around 2600ft... 900ft lower than I was supposed to be getting out at.

We have a new pilot who cut the engines before my instructor yelled "cut" but whose fault was it? Mine because I noticed we were quite low on the first s/l and didn't say anything, the pilot's for cutting the engines too soon or my instructor's for not checking the height before I went out?

No harm done or anything, but I was wondering, should anything have happened, whose fault was it?

Melli


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Jun 6, 2007, 9:30 AM
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Re: [Melliandra] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I did my fourth jump on Saturday. It was my second attempt at DRP so I was on a static line and supposed to be exiting around 3500ft.

Once I exited and went through my drills I was aware that I got to 2000ft pretty quick. I'd also noticed that the S/L infront of me had exited around 3000ft.

When my instructor got down he told me that he realised after he'd told me to go I'd exited around 2600ft... 900ft lower than I was supposed to be getting out at.

We have a new pilot who cut the engines before my instructor yelled "cut" but whose fault was it? Mine because I noticed we were quite low on the first s/l and didn't say anything, the pilot's for cutting the engines too soon or my instructor's for not checking the height before I went out?

No harm done or anything, but I was wondering, should anything have happened, whose fault was it?

Melli

I would say the fault belongs to the S/L instructor for not making sure the plane was at the proper altitude for his students to jump from.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Jun 6, 2007, 9:38 AM
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Re: [Melliandra] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mostly the instructor... but in the end, who is responsible for your skydive? You are.


skydave238  (D 28)

Jun 6, 2007, 10:37 AM
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Re: [Melliandra] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I didnt know that S/L students jump with an altimeter. Over here a S/L progression student only jumps with an altimeter when they reach their 15 sec delay.
Just like your JM or inst is responsible for: making sure the aircraft is safe to jump, checking your equip before you board the plane, hooking you up, spotting etc he is responsible for making sure you exit at the correct altitude.
I do have to agree a little with peregrin. If you knew you were low you should have said something. That still doesnt change the fact that your JM or Inst was "bestowed" that responsibility when he/she received their rating.

Quote:
We have a new pilot who cut the engines before my instructor yelled "cut"

Its actually ironic to read this. A while ago I posted a thread asking about info for a jump pilots test. We have now incorporated "min exit altitude" into it:

18) During normal operation. What are the minimum exit altitudes for?
Static Line Jump a: 1000 feet b: 2500 feet c: 3500 feet [1]
3 second free fall a: 2500 feet b: 3500 feet c: 4500 feet [1]
5 second freefall a: 3500 feet b: 4500 feet c: 2500 feet [1]
10 second freefall a: 4500 feet b: 5500 feet c: 6500 feet [1]
15 second freefall a: 4000 feet b: 5000 feet c: 6000 feet [1]
20 second freefall a: 4000 feet b: 5000 feet c: 6000 feet [1]

Although this doesnt change the JM or Inst responsibilities or duties, having our pilots know this could never hurt. Well atleast at a small 182 or 206 dz where the pilot can usualy identify who's on the load.

Dave


SuperGirl  (D 30091)

Jun 6, 2007, 11:01 AM
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Re: [skydave238] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I didnt know that S/L students jump with an altimeter. Over here a S/L progression student only jumps with an altimeter when they reach their 15 sec delay.

I don't really see why you wouldn't give the student an alti.
You need to be altitude-aware if you have a mal.
especially if it's something apparently easy to fix, say, for instance, a bunch of spinning line twists... then, isn't it imperative to be able to check thy altitude in case it's taking too long to fix it?


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 6, 2007, 11:21 AM
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Re: [Melliandra] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was the pilot's fault for making jump run a bit low, the instructor's fault for not noticing and fixing that problem before dispatching you, and your fault for getting out without knowing your altitude. You and the pilot are newbies, thus mistakes are somewhat expected. I bet all three of you will be a bit more aware next time. Wink

Blues,
Dave


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 6, 2007, 11:29 AM
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Re: [skydave238] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I didnt know that S/L students jump with an altimeter.

There's one right in front of them on the dash just before they climb out.


stanlholmes  (B 29295)

Jun 6, 2007, 11:34 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I didnt know that S/L students jump with an altimeter.

There's one right in front of them on the dash just before they climb out.


That's true, but it's asking alot of a 4th jump person. I doubt they are that airplane smart and I don't think it's covered in any first jump course.

Stan


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 6, 2007, 11:38 AM
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Re: [stanlholmes] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I teach AFF and it's in my FJC.

Make your students aware of their surroundings.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Jun 6, 2007, 11:53 AM
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Re: [SuperGirl] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't really see why you wouldn't give the student an alti.

The argument against giving a static line student an altimeter is that trying to understand altitudes will overload the student, and altimeters are expensive and break easily. That was an especially important consideration 'back in the day when we used round mains that landed hard, and students were taught (and expected to) roll on their landings...obviously not such a consideration in the modern era.

The argument in favor of giving students altimeters is based on safety and an understanding that students should begin to become altitude aware on their very first jump.

In the United States the BSR's require an altimeter for every student. See 2-1(K)(2)(c). That's a relatively recent and important change.

Somebody else suggested that there is an altimeter in the aircraft instrument panel, but of course that is set to MSL, and skydivers use altimeters set to AGL. It's asking a lot to expect a static line student to understand the difference.

As to the original question of fault...I'd rather not place blame. Each participant could have done better, and that's the lesson that should be (and I think has been) learned.


skydave238  (D 28)

Jun 6, 2007, 11:54 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There's one right in front of them on the dash just before they climb out.

True.
Although we dont train them on reading the a/c instuments, we do have an altimeter fixed at the back of the plane. So they can visualy check their altitude before they climb out.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 6, 2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: [tombuch] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's asking a lot to expect a static line student to understand the difference.

I think it's not. If they are not able to understand such a basic concept.....well there's bowling.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Jun 6, 2007, 12:03 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
It's asking a lot to expect a static line student to understand the difference.

I think it's not. If they are not able to understand such a basic concept.....well there's bowling.

I disagree. We are talking about a static line student. At that stage we should be providing safety critical information and not overloading them with unnecessary information. It makes sense to give them an altimeter and discuss zeroing it it to ground level, but at that stage it shouldn't be necessary to discuss the aircraft instruments. If they ask questions, fine, but we shouldn't go into that level of detail so early in the progression.

Later on, when they are learning to spot, students certainly need to understand the aircraft altimeter and some of the other instruments (airspeed indicator, rate of climb, attitude indicator, fuel gauges, etc.).


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 6, 2007, 12:35 PM
Post #14 of 45 (2499 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

>There's one right in front of them on the dash just before they climb out.

In a 182/206 it's very hard to see; it's behind and to the right of the student as he sits in student position. In addition, aircraft altimeters read MSL, not AGL like skydiving altimeters do. Saying "3000 feet, good to go!" could kill you at Lost Prairie.


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 6, 2007, 1:00 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
It's asking a lot to expect a static line student to understand the difference.

I think it's not. If they are not able to understand such a basic concept.....well there's bowling.

We could also including spotting, center point turns, and wrap EPs in the FJC, but we don't. There's a limit to how much a student will retain, after which it's possible that new information will be retained at the expense of other information. I'd rather give them the basics, things that they are assured of needing or that there's a reasonable probability of encountering (e.g. EPs). Topics like density altitude, AGL vs MSL, runway headings, and the location of various instruments in the panel are useful but can also wait. I do like seeing an altimeter reading elevation AGL mounted next to the door though.

Blues,
Dave


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Jun 6, 2007, 1:28 PM
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Re: [skydave238] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am aware of the limitations of an altimeter, but I would not like to not have one during a jump.
I completed S/L recently, and always jumped with an alti.

Mals aside, how can you teach a student to fly a conservative pattern without an alti?
They'd have no reference of when to make sure to be turned into the wind or anything.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 6, 2007, 5:08 PM
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Re: [billvon] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>There's one right in front of them on the dash just before they climb out.

In a 182/206 it's very hard to see; it's behind and to the right of the student as he sits in student position. In addition, aircraft altimeters read MSL, not AGL like skydiving altimeters do. Saying "3000 feet, good to go!" could kill you at Lost Prairie.

At any Utah DZ, you wouldn't have gotten off the ground (All DZ's are above 4KMSL).
I'm not an instructor, but don't you think that asking an adrenaline-wracked fourth jump student to find the altimeter on the dashboard of an aircraft and then calculate the diff between MSL and AGL is a bit much?
All said, is it possible our responses are likely more than a fourth jump-SL student is prepared for anyway?


(This post was edited by DSE on Jun 6, 2007, 6:36 PM)


Melliandra  (B License)

Jun 7, 2007, 1:18 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for your responses, I wasn't trying to get you blaming anyone as such, just my b/f, who's a far more experienced jumper, and I were discussing it after and it's had me thinking that, like you said, it's my jump and therefore my responsibility. Afterwards I was very aware that I should have said something, though 3000 was the last time I looked at my alti till I was out of the plane.

In reply to:
There's one right in front of them on the dash just before they climb out.

I'm confused as to this, I know there are lots of different types of aircraft but I have never seen the cockpit of the caravan I jump from, I climb in and jump out of a sliding side door towards the back.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 7, 2007, 1:37 AM
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Re: [Melliandra] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I'm confused as to this, I know there are lots of different types of aircraft but I have never seen the cockpit of the caravan I jump from, I climb in and jump out of a sliding side door towards the back.
they are thinking you are in a small Cessna 182, where the door is next to the pilot


tombuch  (D 8514)

Jun 7, 2007, 5:27 AM
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Re: [Melliandra] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I'm confused as to this, I know there are lots of different types of aircraft but I have never seen the cockpit of the caravan I jump from, I climb in and jump out of a sliding side door towards the back.

Ahh, good point. We were all thinking it was a Cessna 182, not a Cessna Caravan because a 182 is the most common aircraft for static line jumps.

Some drop zones with larger aircraft place a skydiving altimeter on the back wall of the aircraft or near the door to help jumpers maintain situational awareness. It's a good idea. Absent that, you are on your own. When I'm in a jump plane I keep track of my altimeter, but I also glance around at any other visible altimeters. Sometimes they differ and I like to know that. Occasionally mine will be off by a few hundred feet from all the others. If I see another jumper with an altimeter that doesn't agree with the rest I'll point it out.

As an instructor I always do an altimeter "hack" with my student as we climb through pull altitude. It's not uncommon to have our altimeters off by as much as 500 feet at pull time, so if there is a difference I want to know about it on the way up, so I know when to expect their pull on the way down. That way I know when a missed pull is a student error, and when it is an instrument error.

As for the instrument panel of the Caravan, your instructor (or a jump pilot) should introduce you to the instruments up there when you begin spotting. If they don't, just ask for a tour of the flight deck. It's interesting stuff, and knowing about the basic instruments will make you a better informed jumper.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 7, 2007, 5:29 AM
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Re: [Melliandra] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would put it on the Instructor.

Yes, YOU are responsible for your skydive. Yes, YOU should be checking alti before exit.

However, YOU are a student and the instructor assumes moral, if not legal, responsibility for his/her students.

Pilots? The instructor should have been on the ball enough to tell the pilot what to do...stop the process, get the plane to the correct altitude and then go.

OK...so I'm a hard-ass.Tongue

It's obvious that a lesson has been learned the easy way. Go forth and use your new-found knowledge.
Smile


You guys who do not let students wear an alti...WTF????


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 7, 2007, 10:01 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, the senior instructor is responsible for teaching the junior pilot.


sartre

Jun 7, 2007, 10:27 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, what's up with that? No one has addressed the very valid questions/points made by previous posters as to how they set up their landing pattern and how do they come up with a hard deck for EP's without an alti?

How can it be too overwhelming to teach a student altitude awareness when it is such a basic necessity for safety? And if AFF students can handle reading an altimeter from jump one, why not a S/L student?

Or am I missing something really obvious?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 7, 2007, 11:59 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, the senior instructor is responsible for teaching the junior pilot.

I may be off-base here but I detect sarcasm...???

A skydiving instructor teaching a pilot how to fly a plane? No. (I hope you didn't think I was saying that.)

A skydiving instructor stopping the GO and getting the pilot to fly the proper altitude? Yes.


skydave238  (D 28)

Jun 7, 2007, 12:18 PM
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Re: [sartre] Whose fault was it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
how do they come up with a hard deck for EP's without an alti

How can it be too overwhelming to teach a student altitude awareness when it is such a basic necessity for safety?

Wow, hold on there. No one is saying we dont teach S/L students altitude awareness. CrazyShocked Just because they dont jump with an alti, doesnt mean we dont teach them altitude awareness.
Brief eg. They shout/count "arch thousand two thousand....five thousand check". By "five-thousand check" they should have something above their heads. From there normal canopy checks, canopy control and Ep's if necessary. Malfunctions that can be rectified like: closed end cells; slider stuck; line twists, the student has a time span to rectify. Normaly 5 seconds.

In reply to:
how they set up their landing pattern

Are you saying that AFF students land on their own on their first jump? No. They are brought in by a JM or Inst on the ground. You might argue that if you have an alti, you can correspond where your Inst is flying you with your alti (downwind leg, baseleg etc), but then IMO you are becoming totaly reliable on your alti to judge how high you are. Without an alti you learn to judge height by visualy looking. (Am i making sense?Crazy)
Here you do 3 ground assisted landings, and 5 (or more depending on the student) unassisted landings under supervision from a JM or Inst on the ground, who will bring the student in at any point he feels the student needs help. So you learn to form your own altitude awareness. Also, this is a small dz, so there is little to no air traffic. Students have first priority to the airspace, so there is no need to fly a strict landing pattern.

In reply to:
And if AFF students can handle reading an altimeter from jump one, why not a S/L student?

S/L students do jump with an alti (as i have now found out). It just seems that at some dz's they only start jumping with an alti during the freefall part of their progression.

As a whole, I dont disagree with S/L students jumping with alti's. In fact, I like the idea. But i also trust and respect the Instructors that i work under. They have been training S/L students for over 20 years, and there have never been any serious student incidents.

Dave

edit to add: I'll discuss this with our CI this weekend and see what he thinks.


(This post was edited by skydave238 on Jun 7, 2007, 12:23 PM)


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