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Tell a student to quit

 

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RB_Hammer  (B 29848)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:02 AM
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Have any of you instructors ever had a student that wanted to skydive, but simply wasn't getting it? Has anyone ever straight out told a student that they didn't seem to be getting it and that could get them hurt or dead? Having a small amount of instructing experience in my proffesional life, I know that when I run into someone like that, I don't say that. I take it personal, sort of, and view it as a failure on my part if I can't get them to 'get it'. The worst that can happen to them is they can't get what they want from the software I train them on.
Obviously, skydiving is a little different.


vdschoor  (D 27300)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:26 AM
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Re: [RB_Hammer] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

That's why at my dropzone, it's never one instructor that determines that.
Sometimes it's the connection between the student and the instructor, have another instructor teach the student and see if they can get through to them.. if that doesn't work, then yes.. the speech might be in order..


tombuch  (D 8514)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:55 AM
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Re: [RB_Hammer] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always tried to be honest as we approach that point, and then let the student make the decision to stop jumping.

Many students have trouble at some point in their training and an instructor needs to be encouraging and positive. But there is a point at which it becomes apparent that a student just doesn't get it, and is a danger to himself. As we approach that point my feedback becomes more direct and less encouraging. In most cases the student will recognize the sport isn't for him and will quit on his own, or at least ask for an honest assessment and that opens the door for me to become blunt.

I find it's generally better to guide the student to the decision to quit, rather than make the decision myself.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 5, 2007, 10:12 AM
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Re: [RB_Hammer] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

I have told a couple of women: "You simply do not have enough leg muscle to skydive."
I encouraged them to spend the winter in a gym and try skydiving again in the springtime.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 5, 2007, 10:20 AM
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Re: [RB_Hammer] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

>Has anyone ever straight out told a student that they didn't seem
>to be getting it and that could get them hurt or dead?

Yep, three times. Once was two guys (friends) who simply had the worst attitude I had ever seen. "What's the worst that can happen?" they asked me several times during the FJC. They got through about 4 jumps before we finally had a talk with them.

Another was a guy who was simply too slow to make it through AFF. By the time he got stable and adjusted it was time to pull. Jump after jump was like that. He was OK in terms of pulling on time and staying stable, but that was all he could handle in a dive. He never had a chance to try forward motion or turns or anything because he was always "behind" the skydive. Ten years previous we would have given him the bowling speech, but this time we gave him the wind tunnel speech.

And he actually listened. He went to Vegas and spent 30 minutes in the (cruddy) tunnel they have there, came back, and did a lot better. He will never be a great skydiver, and we spent a lot of time talking to him about his limitations and how he would have to treat the sport (pull a LOT higher than everyone else, stay on a large canopy, stay current etc etc.) But he made it through the course. I was always proud of the guy, even if it was frustrating to be behind him in the plane.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Jun 5, 2007, 10:46 AM
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I had a friend who years ago as a S/L instructor was working a student who had no business being in the sport. He was an older gentleman in his 60's, I think, who had just lost his wife. He was showing very little or no aptitude on the jumps and my friend directly told the DZO that this student should not be jumping but was over-ruled. Well, the gentleman ended up riding a spiralling canopy into the ground, and he joined his wife. Unimpressed


Schoenauer  (D License)

Jun 5, 2007, 11:07 AM
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Re: [RB_Hammer] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

I find at my home DZ we approach the difficult student the same as Vdschoorn and Tombuch have described. When it comes to the point that different instructors are not breaking through and the student is stubborn and refuses to give up, admirable, we then bluntly tell them to look into going to a wind tunnel before continuing.


SuperGirl  (D 30091)

Jun 5, 2007, 11:13 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have told a couple of women: "You simply do not have enough leg muscle to skydive."
I encouraged them to spend the winter in a gym and try skydiving again in the springtime.

I don't quite get this. Could you elaborate a little bit?
I never thought we're using our leg muscles that much... I mean, sure, you use your legs to turn or track, but still, I feel like if your muscles are good enough to walk, they're good enough for basic freefall.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 5, 2007, 11:49 AM
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In reply to:
I don't quite get this. Could you elaborate a little bit?
I never thought we're using our leg muscles that much...

Interested here too. Unless he just means they can't even climb out on the step against the wind. I've seen that quite a bit. That would require abs too.

I have seen women that just don't have enough arm and pec strength to maintain a good mantis. But that doesn't preclude jumping, just jumping 'better'.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 5, 2007, 11:49 AM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jun 5, 2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't quite get this. Could you elaborate a little bit?
I never thought we're using our leg muscles that much...

Interested here too. Unless he just means they can't even climb out on the step against the wind. I've seen that quite a bit. That would require abs too.

I have seen women that just don't have enough arm and pec strength to maintain a good mantis. But that doesn't preclude jumping, just jumping 'better'.

While not at all standing behind the statement made by another, I will say that I saw a female student that should not have jumped (yet)... Couldn't/wouldn't get the concept of a PLF. Instructor was, IMHO, too nice for her own good. Heavier woman, skinny ankles and very bad form... Next time I saw her was after her second jump while recovering from her second broken (sprained?) ankle. NOT to say that she should not jump, just that more conditioning/training would have made it safer.

JW

PS - some of the best jumpers I know are female, got no problem with "them"... matter of fact, we need a lot MORE of them!!!Smile Smile AND have seen several guys that need to take up knitting... with safety needles...Wink


(This post was edited by fcajump on Jun 5, 2007, 11:57 AM)


MakeItHappen

Jun 5, 2007, 12:22 PM
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Re: [RB_Hammer] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have any of you instructors ever had a student that wanted to skydive, but simply wasn't getting it? Has anyone ever straight out told a student that they didn't seem to be getting it and that could get them hurt or dead? Having a small amount of instructing experience in my proffesional life, I know that when I run into someone like that, I don't say that. I take it personal, sort of, and view it as a failure on my part if I can't get them to 'get it'. The worst that can happen to them is they can't get what they want from the software I train them on.
Obviously, skydiving is a little different.

My instructors told me to quit skydiving.
Good thing I did not listen to them.

FMI see
this
and
that

The bio is not even up to date. It does not have my 4 world records and 3 terms on the USPA BOD on there.

Generally, instructors know very little about a student.
Heck, I had people tell me 'Well see how long it lasts' when I told them I was a physics major.

Teachers telling students that they are not cut out to do such-n-such is a signature of a bad teacher.

.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Jun 5, 2007, 12:25 PM
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep. I had 48 jumps when I got off of student status and was given the bowling ball speech once. I'm glad I was too stubborn to quit..


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 5, 2007, 12:45 PM
Post #13 of 128 (4059 views)
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Re: [RB_Hammer] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have any of you instructors ever had a student that wanted to skydive, but simply wasn't getting it? Has anyone ever straight out told a student that they didn't seem to be getting it and that could get them hurt or dead? Having a small amount of instructing experience in my proffesional life, I know that when I run into someone like that, I don't say that. I take it personal, sort of, and view it as a failure on my part if I can't get them to 'get it'. The worst that can happen to them is they can't get what they want from the software I train them on.
Obviously, skydiving is a little different.
Most of them are giving up even they would have some talent. I was not a simple student either. I got warnings and groundings, but none told me that I should have given up. I would not tell anything like that if I would be an instructor.


skydave238  (D 28)

Jun 5, 2007, 12:49 PM
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Re: [fcajump] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't quite get this. Could you elaborate a little bit?
I never thought we're using our leg muscles that much...

mmm, also interested to hear about this.

In reply to:
I have seen women that just don't have enough arm and pec strength to maintain a good mantis. But that doesn't preclude jumping, just jumping 'better'.

I have seen a similar situation with a women that didnt have enough "arm or pec" strength. In this case she didnt have the upper body strength to flare.
After watching her land without being able to flare her canopy, the CI gave her the speech.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 5, 2007, 4:08 PM
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

>Teachers telling students that they are not cut out to do
>such-n-such is a signature of a bad teacher.

Thinking that everyone is capable of doing everything safely is a sign of an irresponsible instructor.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 5, 2007, 5:45 PM
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Re: [billvon] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Teachers telling students that they are not cut out to do
>such-n-such is a signature of a bad teacher.

Thinking that everyone is capable of doing everything safely is a sign of an irresponsible instructor.
If there are no metal or physical limitations I would strongly disagree here, with enough self motivation from the student and "The RIGHT" teacher, pretty much anyone CAN learn anything


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jun 5, 2007, 5:46 PM)


sunshine  (D License)

Jun 5, 2007, 7:02 PM
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Re: [faulknerwn] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yep. I had 48 jumps when I got off of student status and was given the bowling ball speech once. I'm glad I was too stubborn to quit..

I had 44. When i got the bowling ball speech from one DZ, i called a different DZ and explained what was going on. The new DZ was happy to take me on and has been my home DZ ever since. Smile


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:47 PM
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Re: [faulknerwn] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yep. I had 48 jumps when I got off of student status and was given the bowling ball speech once. I'm glad I was too stubborn to quit..

There... so that's why you got into CRW. LaughLaughLaugh


Ms.sofaking

Jun 5, 2007, 9:33 PM
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Re: [Squeak] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

If there are no metal or physical limitations I would strongly disagree here, with enough self motivation from the student and "The RIGHT" teacher, pretty much anyone CAN learn anything
Quote:

I strongly disagree here. Our DZ just had woman with 30ish jumps who was "not getting it" The most motivated I've ever seen.She had broken her ribs from deploying on her back at 6000ft.(which makes me think that was panic) She had a hard pull and ended up under a reserve at 8000ft. We all had been talking. A few weeks ago(breezy day) I knew at 500ft she was in trouble as she did her downwind final.No Flare. I watched her body bounce across the concrete at probably 30mph. I was shocked when she stood up. She didn't know why her landing went bad. Being a new jumper myself I didn't feel I had any business judging her skills. But I felt if something happened to her we would all say "I knew that was going to happen" Another jumper talked to her about why she was jumping and led her down the path of deciding to stop on her own. I think we owed that to her.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 6, 2007, 2:50 AM
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If there are no metal or physical limitations I would strongly disagree here, with enough self motivation from the student and "The RIGHT" teacher, pretty much anyone CAN learn anything
Quote:

I strongly disagree here. Our DZ just had woman with 30ish jumps who was "not getting it" The most motivated I've ever seen.She had broken her ribs from deploying on her back at 6000ft.(which makes me think that was panic) She had a hard pull and ended up under a reserve at 8000ft. We all had been talking. A few weeks ago(breezy day) I knew at 500ft she was in trouble as she did her downwind final.No Flare. I watched her body bounce across the concrete at probably 30mph. I was shocked when she stood up. She didn't know why her landing went bad. Being a new jumper myself I didn't feel I had any business judging her skills. But I felt if something happened to her we would all say "I knew that was going to happen" Another jumper talked to her about why she was jumping and led her down the path of deciding to stop on her own. I think we owed that to her.
And nothing in your passage actually negates what I said. with the right coaching and right motivation, almost all people can be trained up.
We have multi thousand jump numbered people that had to repeat Aff stages 15-20 times, Many people siad they would not make it. they were wrong


Ms.sofaking

Jun 6, 2007, 4:50 AM
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I think there are different reasons people don't start out well in the sport. And many great skydivers who struggled at first. The woman I spoke of seemed to panic, at high altitudes(8000-6000ft).She was going down wind towards concrete and froze.What happens when shit hits the fan at 4000ft at 3000ft. I think if you are someone who is panic stricken and frequently deploying unstable, because of it, And often injuring yourself, it is possible you can not be taught, nor should be. I think it's an instructors job to recognize this and to have that talk with the person. I'm too new to start running around pointing fingers at who belongs in the air and who doesn't, it's not my place to say.
You could be really bad at golfing and still play for years. If someone is endangering themselves and others how many jumps is that acceptable for? 50? 500? Until they die trying to "get it" I don't think everybody is capable of everything.

But, I flew my canopy into a building on my first jump. So who am I to say?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 6, 2007, 4:59 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
If there are no metal or physical limitations I would strongly disagree here, with enough self motivation from the student and "The RIGHT" teacher, pretty much anyone CAN learn anything
Quote:

I strongly disagree here. Our DZ just had woman with 30ish jumps who was "not getting it" The most motivated I've ever seen.She had broken her ribs from deploying on her back at 6000ft.(which makes me think that was panic) She had a hard pull and ended up under a reserve at 8000ft. We all had been talking. A few weeks ago(breezy day) I knew at 500ft she was in trouble as she did her downwind final.No Flare. I watched her body bounce across the concrete at probably 30mph. I was shocked when she stood up. She didn't know why her landing went bad. Being a new jumper myself I didn't feel I had any business judging her skills. But I felt if something happened to her we would all say "I knew that was going to happen" Another jumper talked to her about why she was jumping and led her down the path of deciding to stop on her own. I think we owed that to her.
And nothing in your passage actually negates what I said. with the right coaching and right motivation, almost all people can be trained up.
We have multi thousand jump numbered people that had to repeat Aff stages 15-20 times, Many people siad they would not make it. they were wrong

I strongly disagree here. You contradict your own premise when you say, ..."pretty much anyone" and "almost all people".

There are people who should take up some other sport before they hurt themselves, others or the sport in general. Deciding when to say when is the grey area.

I have suggested to some AFF FJC students that it would be better for them to take a tandem ride before continuing with AFF training.

I have yet to tell a student that he/she should not be skydiving. I tell the DZO that a person should not be skydiving. I've been overruled every time. Some survived well enough and a couple hurt themselves...not worth it watching somebody hurt themselves in my book.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 6, 2007, 5:07 AM
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Relavent side story:

Back in the '70s I had severe concerns about being able to handle EPs if needed. My brother gave me the best advice:

"Skydiving is a sport where EPs require you to make the play every time, without fail. If you're not confident that you can make the play, maybe you should put it aside for now."

I did.

Now that EPs are much simpler with better gear, I returned to the sport I love.

Thanks, 'bro. You may have saved my life.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 6, 2007, 6:59 AM
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Re: [Ms.sofaking] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think there are different reasons people don't start out well in the sport. And many great skydivers who struggled at first. The woman I spoke of seemed to panic, at high altitudes(8000-6000ft).She was going down wind towards concrete and froze.What happens when shit hits the fan at 4000ft at 3000ft. I think if you are someone who is panic stricken and frequently deploying unstable, because of it, And often injuring yourself, it is possible you can not be taught, nor should be. I think it's an instructors job to recognize this and to have that talk with the person. I'm too new to start running around pointing fingers at who belongs in the air and who doesn't, it's not my place to say.
You could be really bad at golfing and still play for years. If someone is endangering themselves and others how many jumps is that acceptable for? 50? 500? Until they die trying to "get it" I don't think everybody is capable of everything.

But, I flew my canopy into a building on my first jump. So who am I to say?
I still see nothing that tells me that they cant be taught.
The only thing i see is someone who needs alternative strategies.
The real problem i see here is that many people would not pay what it takes to find the alternative strategies, moreover many of the instructors dont have the skills to find said alternatives nor the desire to implement them. Especially when the next tandem or AFF student is waiting inline.

I have over 20 years instructing SCUBA and I"m a professional educator of difficult to educate students. I have yet to come across someone who CANT be taught if their desire is strong enough


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jun 6, 2007, 7:01 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 6, 2007, 7:09 AM
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Re: [Squeak] Tell a student to quit [In reply to] Can't Post

>I still see nothing that tells me that they cant be taught.

You can teach procedures, body position, dive flows and manuevers. You can teach BSR's and DZ rules and canopy control guidelines. You cannot teach good judgment.


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