Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers?

 

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78RATS  (D 25449)

Jun 4, 2007, 9:35 AM
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What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? Can't Post

Seems like a simple question but I witnessed a significant disagreement between two experienced swoopers following a near miss on final. Both agreed it was supposed to be a "right hand pattern".


Landing direction: South

Swooper one: flew a north leg and did a right hand 180.

Swooper two: flew a north leg, a (right handed) east leg, followed by a left handed 270.


Swooper two argued that he flew a right hand pattern followed by a landing manuver. Is he correct?


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Jun 4, 2007, 9:44 AM
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Re: [78RATS] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

swooper 1 did not have a base leg did he..

therefore he did not really fly a pattern

but heres the kicker...turning back into the pattern is a bad idea no matter what...

thusly I fly right hand pattern left hand 270 in a left hand pattern which gives me the option to bail into standard pattern should need arise.

Dave


mgattini  (D 40947)

Jun 4, 2007, 9:47 AM
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Re: [78RATS] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

All turns are done to the right, the second swooper should of done a right 270, entering the area on his crosswind leg facing west, IMHO


tetra316  (D 26945)

Jun 4, 2007, 9:49 AM
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Re: [78RATS] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the pattern (in swooping cases) was decided based upon whether the 270 was right or left handed. So I would think swooper two flew a left handed pattern. I have always heard swoopers around here discussing the pattern in terms of the standard pattern as well as the degree of turn and which way they turn so this can be avoided.

(but what do I know, I'm just a wuffo swooperTongue )


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jun 4, 2007, 9:56 AM
Post #5 of 39 (2432 views)
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Re: [78RATS] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seems like a simple question but I witnessed a significant disagreement between two experienced swoopers following a near miss on final. Both agreed it was supposed to be a "right hand pattern".


Landing direction: South

Swooper one: flew a north leg and did a right hand 180.

Swooper two: flew a north leg, a (right handed) east leg, followed by a left handed 270.


Swooper two argued that he flew a right hand pattern followed by a landing manuver. Is he correct?

Swooper 1 confused 'pattern' with 'point of maneuver'.

A right hand pattern is a series of right hand turns to the setup leg. From there, do to a 270 in a right hand pattern the pilot would have to do a LEFT 270.

Blues,
Ian


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Jun 4, 2007, 9:56 AM
Post #6 of 39 (2431 views)
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Re: [78RATS] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

It appears that these two swoopers were confusing their turns to final with the pattern direction. If I am landing towards the south and I approach my setup point from the west, then I am flying a right hand pattern regardless if my turn to final is a 90, 180, 270 or more.

As a side note. I will only do this in hop n' pop training and/or in a swoop competition. But I like flying whatever pattern I need to (left or right) so that I am flying into a possible cross-wind before my setup point. This way I get the tail wind push at the end of my 270 turn to final. But I don't do this in traffic (or at DZs where they only allow you to approach from one direction). It's strickly a competition and/or training tactic.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 4, 2007, 10:10 AM
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Re: [dharma1976] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
thusly I fly right hand pattern left hand 270 in a left hand pattern which gives me the option to bail into standard pattern should need arise.

That's my answer as well.


jumpjunkie  (D 24376)

Jun 4, 2007, 11:24 AM
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Re: [78RATS] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Robert

Have they declared that there is a standard left or right pattern in the HP landing area? I have only heard of it in the main landing area.

From my understanding of what happened, it seems that the pattern wasn't the issue. Instead it was inexperience with how to handle the situation and the knowledge of when to abort a swoop if circumstances dictate.


Swooopa-x  (D 847)

Jun 4, 2007, 11:34 AM
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Re: [78RATS] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Look at this picture and ask yourself which swooper flew along more of the lines or flew more 'legs' of the pattern.
A 270 is really just a small circle or 'orbit' at the base/finals turn point. It doesn't affect "The Pattern".
Flying a 180 to finals is really only joining the pattern at finals - the worst poss time. And if its a left hand 180 then its not even from a point 'outside' the pattern but rather 'inside' the established rectangle.
Perhaps a R/H 270 flown off the base leg is not 100% standard but any traffic in the pattern, behind that pilot will still have a good view of that canopy and the maneuvre.
Also, it does resemble a procedure in aviation called an 'orbit'. One pilot does a small circle either left or right to create separation in the pattern.
Attachments: 550px-Airfield_traffic_pattern_svg.png (24.4 KB)


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Jun 4, 2007, 12:40 PM
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Re: [Swooopa-x] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed - "forcing" people to do 180s is pretty stupid as it's one of the worst possible set ups, hard to get to the required point for the final turn... with the only outs cutting across someone elses' path Crazy


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 4, 2007, 7:21 PM
Post #11 of 39 (2201 views)
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Re: [78RATS] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
disagreement between two experienced swoopers following a near miss on final.


We all know that this is a significant problem we have in your hands. One of the reasons is that different people see things in different ways.

One big-shot swooper at DZ 'x' may believe that the direction of the turns in the pattern are what's important, and not so much the direction of the swoop. As such, all who learns to swoop at DZ 'x' will do so with the same understanding.

Of course, DZ 'y' sees things another way, and when jumpers from DZs x and y all go to DZ 'q' for a boogie, you get what we have here.

Wouldn't the easy (and smart) solution be to simply take turns? My five year old daughter has trouble with this concept, but I've always pegged the average skydiver to be on par with at least an eight year old, so I think this could work.


How big are the planes were jumping out of? What are there 4 Casas out there? Otherwise were looking at 22 people on the high end. Is it that hard to just talk it out before you board, and coem up with a location and an order for the swoopers to land?

If your choice was to work together, or get into a low level wrap and die, what would you choose?

Furhtermore, if you lack the ability to postion yourself in a line-up, and swoop a dedicated area, guess what? You shouldn't be swooping.

I jump with a small handful of swoopers. There are maybe five of us on the DZ. We all jump together all the time, and at some point one of us says, "I'll go first", and the rest of us line up behind him. It's easy and simple, and if we never said it, we'd still fly the same exact way, and line up behind soemone. It works.

Even with a guy you 've never met before, it shouldn't take more than 60 seconds for a group of skilled canopy pilots to organize themselves.

Let's take some initiative out there people. We're literally and figuratively killing ourslves with these collisions. It's got to stop.


breadhead  (D 236)

Jun 5, 2007, 2:10 AM
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Re: [78RATS] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Swooper two argued that he flew a right hand pattern followed by a landing manuver. Is he correct?

He is correct. His pattern was a right hand pattern, with a left hand turn at the end.


(This post was edited by breadhead on Jun 5, 2007, 2:13 AM)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 5, 2007, 3:33 AM
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Re: [breadhead] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Swooper two argued that he flew a right hand pattern followed by a landing manuver. Is he correct?

He is correct. His pattern was a right hand pattern, with a left hand turn at the end.
So what makes it a right hand pattern? AFAIK left pattern has just left, right pattern has just right turns.


marks  (D 22296)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:04 AM
Post #14 of 39 (2036 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Swooper two argued that he flew a right hand pattern followed by a landing manuver. Is he correct?

He is correct. His pattern was a right hand pattern, with a left hand turn at the end.
So what makes it a right hand pattern? AFAIK left pattern has just left, right pattern has just right turns.

the pattern itself makes it a right hand pattern. if you look at the pattern from above, a left 270 is esentially a right 90 deg turn, he just went the long way around.Tongue


980  (D 980)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:11 AM
Post #15 of 39 (2033 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So what makes it a right hand pattern?

flying a landing pattern consisting of 3 distinct legs: downwind, crosswind/base and upwind/final

and doing right hand 90 degree turns between each leg

this person flew the same pattern as someone doing just 90s right for every turn

Quote:
AFAIK left pattern has just left, right pattern has just right turns.
Quote:

that is correct if you are looking at the final effect of every turn only

a left hand 270 = a right hand 90 (as far as the landing pattern goes)

it's like they say: 'Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.'


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:23 AM
Post #16 of 39 (2028 views)
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Re: [marks] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the pattern itself makes it a right hand pattern. if you look at the pattern from above, a left 270 is esentially a right 90 deg turn, he just went the long way around.Tongue
I see, so too much airspeed can cause problem of sensing the difference between left and right, right? Tongue


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:28 AM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
the pattern itself makes it a right hand pattern. if you look at the pattern from above, a left 270 is esentially a right 90 deg turn, he just went the long way around.Tongue
I see, so too much airspeed can cause problem of sensing the difference between left and right, right? Tongue

Huh?

If I'm landing to the south and approach from the west on my base leg, what pattern am I flying? In aviation there is no doubt I am flying a right handed pattern. The only difference is the 270 turn to final. What pattern would I be flying if I ripped a 450? and what does airspeed have to do with what Mark wrote?


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:29 AM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

but that being said does anyone besides chuck and myself see the benefit of flying a left hand pattern right hand 270 in a right hand pattern???

think about the safety of turning blindly backwards into the pattern and then answer...

Dave


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:29 AM
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Re: [980] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
So what makes it a right hand pattern?

flying a landing pattern consisting of 3 distinct legs: downwind, crosswind/base and upwind/final

and doing right hand 90 degree turns between each leg

this person flew the same pattern as someone doing just 90s right for every turn

Quote:
AFAIK left pattern has just left, right pattern has just right turns.
Quote:

that is correct if you are looking at the final effect of every turn only

a left hand 270 = a right hand 90 (as far as the landing pattern goes)

it's like they say: 'Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.'
????

If you have 3 parts like: downwind, crosswind/base and upwind/final you can make only 2 turns between them. So thats still left even the downwind and base leg is really short.

Quote:
this person flew the same pattern as someone doing just 90s right for every turn
That is my all time favorite, same, but....


980  (D 980)

Jun 5, 2007, 8:50 AM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

the saying refers to doing three 90 degree left turns having the same effect as doing one 90 degree right turn

it is a saying from everyday life, not skydiving or aviation and has nothing to do with the pattern

I just included it because it shows that most people understand that turning left for 270 degrees from a specfific heading has the same end effect as turning right for 90 degrees from that same heading!!!


They did fly the same pattern. Draw it out on some paper from above and you will realize that.

Why are you the only one here having trouble seeing that?

Maybe it's no coincidence that you always end up having asinine arguments by making contrary statements with no factual backup in most of your posts??


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 5, 2007, 12:30 PM
Post #21 of 39 (1973 views)
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Re: [980] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They did fly the same pattern. Draw it out on some paper from above and you will realize that.
I see your point, but can see mine.

It's not getting from A to B. Flying is 3D, so what to do with paper? Trace does matter.

In reply to:
Maybe it's no coincidence that you always end up having asinine arguments by making contrary statements with no factual backup in most of your posts??
Looking for some grip? Taking it personal?


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Jun 5, 2007, 12:44 PM
Post #22 of 39 (1967 views)
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Re: [980] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're all kind of right, IMHO.

The difference between finishing up on a 270 vs a 90 whilst following the same pattern is that you end up behind the point of initiation on the 270... and as Dave quite correctly points out, you end up flying towards someone on their base leg if they're close behind you.

I would therefore speculate that, with a 270 onto finals, flying the opposite pattern (provided no-one crosses the centre dividing line) is safest as you actually fly away from others landing on a "regular" approach.

Personally, regardless of how I'm setting up, I always clear the airspace immediately behind me before making any manouvre...


jurgencamps  (D License)

Jun 6, 2007, 3:37 AM
Post #23 of 39 (1887 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

See drawing.
Attachments: righthandpattern.JPG (7.83 KB)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 6, 2007, 3:48 AM
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Re: [jurgencamps] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you want to tell me that you start you right 90 or left 270 from the same point(same altitude)? Crazy


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 6, 2007, 4:07 AM
Post #25 of 39 (1877 views)
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Re: [jurgencamps] What does "right hand pattern" mean to swoopers? [In reply to] Can't Post

See article: Airfield traffic pattern


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