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Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury)

 

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Andy9o8  (D License)

May 27, 2007, 3:28 PM
Post #101 of 149 (5345 views)
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Re: [deadwood] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i think it is interesting that most DZs wouldn't allow a 16 yr old to sign a waiver by themselves and do a tandem, because they are not mature/old enough to take the risk by themselves, but this one would put a 16 yr old in the air with the tandem.

The primary reason most DZ's in the US don't let under-18 year olds jump is because the waiver, which is a form of contract, is virtually a nullity: nobody under age 18 is legally competent to enter into a binding contract, and a waiver signed by the kid's parents binds only the parents, not the kid (or, if the case may be, the kid's estate).

As I see it, the maturity issue is better viewed with a (probably inadequate) comparison to licensed drivers. Most US states set age 16 as the minimum driver's license age. That's not only the case now, it was even the case back in the day when the age of majority was 21. So, legality is not the main consideration in the driving age, maturity and judgment is. Certainly, most 12 or 13 year olds could learn to capably drive. So why not let them? - because, as a general group, too many of them don't yet have the maturity and judgment to be trusted with that responsibility. How many of us - especially males - drove like absolute assholes at age 16? I certainly did. I was reckless and occasionally dangerous, and thank God I didn't hurt anyone.

Do 16 year olds have the maturity and judgment to be trusted to skydive non-tandem? I'd say it varies on a person-by-person basis. But I'd also say that any DZO who lets an under-18 year old skydive non-tandem has a particularly high duty to carefully assess and closely monitor that kid's judgment, and what types of jumps the kid's allowed to go on, on a continuous basis.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on May 27, 2007, 3:38 PM)


deadwood  (D 9930)

May 27, 2007, 8:59 PM
Post #102 of 149 (5278 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If the 16 year old has the experience and skill, what is the problem?

Ask your lawyer.


jheadley  (D 28710)

May 29, 2007, 1:24 PM
Post #103 of 149 (5082 views)
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Re: [davepend] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing that I'd like to comment on is that while I'm glad Jarett isn't going to fly underneath tandems anymore, he certainly isn't the only person doing this. I'm sure we can all think of some relatively respected video guys who do the same thing and never get talked to, because of their reputation and status in the community. One I used to pack for even fully admitted that if he had a premature, it'd be a triple fatality. Are you guys going to start calling out them too?


stratostar  (Student)

May 29, 2007, 1:35 PM
Post #104 of 149 (5076 views)
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Re: [jheadley] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

I would if I saw the videos of them doing it, I don' t care who you are, if your playing inside the cones of death, your in the wrong, period. Play around all ya want to as long as the TM is ok with it and you stay out of the no fly zone/cones!

FAI- the cone of death shaped like an hour glass above and below a tandem. i.e. the skinny part where the sand pass thru is the TDM.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

May 29, 2007, 3:43 PM
Post #105 of 149 (5028 views)
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Re: [jheadley] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sure we can all think of some relatively respected video guys who do the same thing and never get talked to, because of their reputation and status in the community.

Who?


stratostar  (Student)

May 29, 2007, 6:34 PM
Post #106 of 149 (4998 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
the cone of death shaped like an hour glass above and below a tandem. i.e. the skinny part where the sand pass thru is the TDM.

These two photos show what I was trying to say in the earlier post, the higher up or lower you go the farther back you must be! And seeing how Mr. Sean Crossman was talked about by so many posters, I used a still image taken just weeks before he was killed. Funny maybe if I would had blown this up and hung it up in the video room he might still be here, but no I don't think that would have worked to tell the truth, after all it was/has just been us old farts picking on the "punk ass know it all kids" and has nothing to do with safety.


(This post was edited by stratostar on May 29, 2007, 6:35 PM)
Attachments: Sean-Crossman-No-Fly.jpg (95.2 KB)
  No-FLY-2.jpg (84.6 KB)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 29, 2007, 6:41 PM
Post #107 of 149 (4990 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
old farts picking on the "punk ass know it all kids" and has nothing to do with safety.

For anyone who didn't already know that those are shitty places to be in relation to any skydiver, change that grouping to the, "retarded punk ass know it all kids".


stratostar  (Student)

May 29, 2007, 6:47 PM
Post #108 of 149 (4985 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, I stand corrected.BlushUnsurePirate


iambeav2  (D 29842)

May 30, 2007, 4:19 PM
Post #109 of 149 (4829 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been lurking this thread and am not biting at anything, only asking, what's the story on Crossman?


mnealtx  (B 30496)

May 30, 2007, 4:51 PM
Post #110 of 149 (4820 views)
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Re: [iambeav2] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have been lurking this thread and am not biting at anything, only asking, what's the story on Crossman?

I linked it in my post at the beginning of the thread - go take a look.


stratostar  (Student)

May 30, 2007, 6:10 PM
Post #111 of 149 (4798 views)
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Re: [iambeav2] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

here:http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


iambeav2  (D 29842)

May 30, 2007, 8:41 PM
Post #112 of 149 (4770 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks and sorry.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 31, 2007, 4:41 PM
Post #113 of 149 (4616 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As I see it, the maturity issue is better viewed with a (probably inadequate) comparison to licensed drivers. Most US states set age 16 as the minimum driver's license age. That's not only the case now, it was even the case back in the day when the age of majority was 21. So, legality is not the main consideration in the driving age, maturity and judgment is. Certainly, most 12 or 13 year olds could learn to capably drive. So why not let them? - because, as a general group, too many of them don't yet have the maturity and judgment to be trusted with that responsibility. How many of us - especially males - drove like absolute assholes at age 16? I certainly did. I was reckless and occasionally dangerous, and thank God I didn't hurt anyone.

While driving a car is a good analogy, flying an aircraft is perhaps better. Children may legally solo gliders and balloons at 14 and other aircraft at 16. With respect to the children of DZO's and experienced jumpers, I kind of think of them like farmer's kids, who are usually legally allowed to drive on farm property and on public roads within a certain radius of the farm (e.g. a couple miles). Note I'm not advocating violation of the BSRs. My daughter was packing for me at age 10, but I didn't take her on a tandem till it was "legal".

Blues,
Dave


aironscott

May 31, 2007, 7:50 PM
Post #114 of 149 (4567 views)
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Re: [livendive] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Since when is 16 legal for tandems?


livendive  (D 21415)

May 31, 2007, 8:02 PM
Post #115 of 149 (4561 views)
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Re: [aironscott] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since when is 16 legal for tandems?

According to the BSRs? Since July 18, 2004. Oddly enough, that date sticks out in my head every year. The vote was 15 for, 5 against, and 1 abstained. I think they recessed around 1:00. Tongue

Blues,
Dave


(This post was edited by livendive on May 31, 2007, 8:11 PM)


toronto_bill  (C 3085)

May 31, 2007, 8:57 PM
Post #116 of 149 (4540 views)
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Re: [livendive] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave,
Isn't it necessary to sign a waiver.
Doesn't it need a parent/guardian's signature.
Isn't it illegal to sign away your 'childs' rights ?

Is a waiver for a 16 yr old the same as an adult?

edited to add:
So the USPA os ok with it? But, legal ramifications are too risky?


(This post was edited by toronto_bill on May 31, 2007, 9:00 PM)


livendive  (D 21415)

May 31, 2007, 9:28 PM
Post #117 of 149 (4525 views)
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Re: [toronto_bill] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dave,
Isn't it necessary to sign a waiver.
Doesn't it need a parent/guardian's signature.
Isn't it illegal to sign away your 'childs' rights ?

Is a waiver for a 16 yr old the same as an adult?

edited to add:
So the USPA os ok with it? But, legal ramifications are too risky?

It sounds like you've got it. The BSRs allow students of any sort to jump at age 16. Some dropzones follow this, but most require that the students have reached the age of majority so that they can sign a legally enforceable waiver. There are still a couple of states where the age of majority is 21, and I'm not sure what protocol is there. It's not "illegal" to sign away your child's rights, it's impossible. If a child is injured on a jump, it's feasible that they can bring suit when they turn 18 (in most states) against everyone involved in their jump, including their parents. This is why most DZs don't allow minors to jump except in special circumstances (e.g. make-a-wish foundation, children that have grown up at the DZ who know the risks and are unlikely to sue, etc). One thing I'm not sure of, but that may be possible, is for the parents to sign an assumption of risk agreement that would make them responsible for any judgements against all other parties sued in assocation with a jump by their child. I'm not sure how well that would hold up, but given that most waivers currently specify just such a circumstance for a decedent (because he/she can't sign away their family's right to sue), it sounds at least possible.

Edit to add: If you ever make it to Lodi, you'll find that some DZOs are fine without anyone signing waivers. Their's is on the back of a jump ticket (maybe 1.5" x 0.75") and requires no signature. I suggest going there soon after visiting Perris. Laugh

Blues,
Dave


(This post was edited by livendive on May 31, 2007, 9:31 PM)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jun 1, 2007, 8:00 AM
Post #118 of 149 (4445 views)
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Re: [livendive] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Since when is 16 legal for tandems?

According to the BSRs? Since July 18, 2004. Oddly enough, that date sticks out in my head every year. The vote was 15 for, 5 against, and 1 abstained. I think they recessed around 1:00. Tongue

Blues,
Dave
Do the BSRs not also demand that the equipment be used according to the manufacturers specifications. UPT and Strong are quite adamant that no-one under eighteen is allowed to make a tandem.


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 1, 2007, 8:11 AM
Post #119 of 149 (4438 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do the BSRs not also demand that the equipment be used according to the manufacturers specifications. UPT and Strong are quite adamant that no-one under eighteen is allowed to make a tandem.

You're correct about UPT and Strong, but the BSRs have no such demand. (They do say, however, that an instructor must be approved by the manufacturer. The manufacturer can yank that approval for violating the age requirement)

Blues,
Dave


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jun 1, 2007, 8:16 AM
Post #120 of 149 (4433 views)
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Re: [livendive] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

At the end of the day, the BSR's are not laws, the FAR's are.

Derek


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 1, 2007, 8:26 AM
Post #121 of 149 (4441 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At the end of the day, the BSR's are not laws, the FAR's are.

Derek

Unless you're in Nevada. But yeah, you're right, the FAA has the final word. Still, I'm personally a fan of the BSRs.

Blues,
Dave


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 1, 2007, 9:40 AM
Post #122 of 149 (4422 views)
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Re: [livendive] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

If I understand correctly, not only do the manufacturer requirements need to be followed, but the manufacturer can walk on to a DZ and confiscate equipment if they feel a safety violation has occurred.
Has this ever happened?


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 1, 2007, 9:59 AM
Post #123 of 149 (4413 views)
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Re: [DSE] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I understand correctly, not only do the manufacturer requirements need to be followed, but the manufacturer can walk on to a DZ and confiscate equipment if they feel a safety violation has occurred.
Has this ever happened?

Wholesale compliance with the manufacturer's requirements is not mandated in the BSRs, and only some of them are specified in the FARs. However, there are several areas in which the three sets of requirements overlap and agree (e.g. the FARs are incorporated in the BSRs by reference). The mfg's requirements are spelled out in the user agreement that exists between the rig owner and the manufacturer, and violating them could void that contract. I'm not aware of any mechanism by which the manufacturer could confiscate equipment owned by someone else.

Blues,
Dave


vpozzoli  (Student)

Jun 1, 2007, 11:22 AM
Post #124 of 149 (4386 views)
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Re: [DSE] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I understand correctly, not only do the manufacturer requirements need to be followed, but the manufacturer can walk on to a DZ and confiscate equipment if they feel a safety violation has occurred.
Has this ever happened?
As far as I know tandem systems are sold and not leased, so I fail to see how the manufacturer could "confiscate" something it can non longer claim wnership of.
If indeed there is a "user agreement" that the DZO has signed and the manufacturer feels it is being violated I guess the manufacturer has every right to sue the DZO (or whomever signed the contract) in a court of law, for breach of the same.
Cheers,

Vale


skydave238  (D 28)

Jun 1, 2007, 1:02 PM
Post #125 of 149 (4353 views)
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Re: [vpozzoli] Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I understand correctly, not only do the manufacturer requirements need to be followed, but the manufacturer can walk on to a DZ and confiscate equipment if they feel a safety violation has occurred.
Has this ever happened?

Not familier with the USPA BSR's etc, but doesnt a TI obtain a rating on a specific tandem system from a manufacturer. Is the rating issued by the USPA or by the manufacturer, or onbehalf of the manufacturer by the USPA?
What im trying to ask is, can the manufacturer revoke/suspend a TIs rating if one of their safety requirements have not been met?


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