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150 sqare foot canopy

 

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Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 17, 2002, 5:11 PM
Post #1 of 27 (3747 views)
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150 sqare foot canopy Can't Post

hi people,
I will be looking at buying a rig on the next 2 or so months.
I have discussed this with my instructors and they say that I would be fine on a 150 foot canopy.
Now everything I have read would indicate that this is too small.
My instructors say that it will be mre responsive and handle better.
Given my age and the way I fly my canopy now they say I will have no prblems with it.
So my question is...
If I go from student 270, to 20 (or so) jumps on a 235, and some more on a borrowed 170, would it be uncommon for someone to go down to 150 within 50 jumps.
Also what is the real difference in canopy speed and manouverability when down sizing.
I'm about 188lbs exit weight. which gives a 1.25 wing load???


Sonic  (B 102345)

Nov 17, 2002, 5:13 PM
Post #2 of 27 (3720 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

I loadmy hornet 170 at the same loading, and while most of the time it's been ok, there was that time yesterday when landing downwind off the dz when a bigger canopy would have been nice.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Nov 17, 2002, 5:38 PM
Post #3 of 27 (3703 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

There are two types for canopy pilots.. .agressive ones and normal ones. The agressive ones are those that downsize rapidly, take more chances then others and usually end up with lots of broken bones. Normal ones are most often called wusses by the agressive ones since they are seen under large slow canopies that the others can't understand why they fly them. They tend to sit out in questionable conditions and they tend to have less trips to the ER room.

You can end up just as dead at a .8 loading as you can at a 2:1 loading.

I'm a pilot that did'nt go over 1:1 till over 200 jumps, I finally got over 1.2 at 300 and 1.4 at 450. What harm can a larger canopy cause?


TB99  (D 26447)

Nov 17, 2002, 5:43 PM
Post #4 of 27 (3696 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm ... I'm only at 1.15:1 and will probably stay at that loading for another 5-600 jumps. There's a LOT you can do with your canopy to make it fun and learn a TON before you even need to downsize. I just got this new size not too long ago (40 jumps or so) and I'm lovin it but will take a while before I learn the full extent of this baby! I believe downsizing is up to you, people can tell you anything they want, but YOU are ultimately responsible for yourself. If you feel like you know everything you can know about the size you're on, go ahead and downsize. If you have doubts, hesitations, or know you can't handle the speed, why do it?!??


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Nov 17, 2002, 6:19 PM
Post #5 of 27 (3671 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Do what you feel comfortable with, but remember those people aren't going to land it for you when the conditions are questionable. I think you'll have more of a grasp on how it feels to you once you get down to a 170. I wouldn't downsize after that unless you are totally and completely bored with the 170, and can do all the maneuvers you might need to do in a stressful situation, and can land with great accuracy.


ChileRelleno  (D 24868)

Nov 17, 2002, 6:33 PM
Post #6 of 27 (3664 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Your instructors are apparently confident of you canopy control skills and you may just be a natural born pilot. But... You still have alot to learn. There are so many types of atmospheric conditions to experience and fly in and so many landing scenarios that there is no doubt that at sometime in the future you will falldown and scrape your knee just like when you learned to walk.
I personally see no problem in jumping from the 270 to a 190/170 @ .98/1.1, either of these sizes will be able to give you thrills and chills for 100's of jumps to come yet be forgiving enough for small mistakes.
I would not go to the 150 @ 1.25.

Have fun and play safely!!!


(This post was edited by ChileRelleno on Nov 17, 2002, 6:34 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 17, 2002, 6:36 PM
Post #7 of 27 (3661 views)
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Re: [skymama] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

The rationale that the instructors used for the 150 was that a 190 was a complete dog to fly and that I outgrow and get bored with the 170 pretty quickly, so if i go to a 150 and be conservative on it I will be fine.Crazy


Michele  (B 26874)

Nov 17, 2002, 6:52 PM
Post #8 of 27 (3650 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Heya, Squeak....



Might just be me...and after all, I haven't got a ton of jumps like these guys do. But hey, I think the 150 would be perfect for you.
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If you want to jump once and break yourself.

A 1.25 wingloading seems a tad aggressive to me, even stepping it down like you describe.

Your instructors' rationale is interesting. I gotta say, I would much rather be bored under canopy than overly excited. Granted, being bored under canopy is, well, boring, but given the choices at this point, that's the one I'd rather (and the one I thought I'd have...except my canopy is perfect right where it is, for about the next 200 jumps or 30 lbs, whichever comes first...I am not bored at all). It kinda goes along with the thought that "I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the sky than in the sky wishing I was on the ground"

You very well may be capable of handling a 1.25 w/l @ 50 jumps. But if the deal of a lifetime is not on the table, then what's the hurry? Last I looked, the sky wasn't going anywhere...Wink And last I looked, they weren't going to stop selling canpies in 2 months either...if it's a matter of saving money because you don't want to rent gear (and yes, it is expensive that way), then look for a used set-up in a 1:1 w/l, and play on that for a while...and then buy new.

Why don't you get a bunch of jumps in on the 170 (stepping down cautiously in the meanwhile), and then make the decision? I mean, patience is great - I'd rather see it be voluntary then forced because your leg is in a cast, or worse...

As always, this is my (limited) opinion, and worth exactly .02...

Ciels-
Michele


(This post was edited by Michele on Nov 17, 2002, 6:59 PM)


Kris  (D 26033)

Nov 17, 2002, 6:53 PM
Post #9 of 27 (3651 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The rationale that the instructors used for the 150 was that a 190 was a complete dog to fly and that I outgrow and get bored with the 170 pretty quickly, so if i go to a 150 and be conservative on it I will be fine.Crazy

It's amazing that your instructors are psychic and know exactly how you'll feel about flying a 190 & 170 canopy before you do.

I recommend trying a 170 for a while to see how you like it. You can always find a 150 later if you decide that's what you want. But I recommend that you stay away from a 1.25 or higher wing-loading. You can't always be conservative and something may happen. That 20-40 extra feet of fabric over your head that a 170 or 190 will give you may make the difference between simply getting dirty or getting everyone to sign your cast.

Remember, nobody who has faced a bad landing ever wished, "You know, if I only had 20 less feet of canopy over my head..."

Kris
IAD/JM


TB99  (D 26447)

Nov 17, 2002, 7:36 PM
Post #10 of 27 (3633 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so if i go to a 150 and be conservative on it I will be fine.Crazy

Hmm, it's not always about being conservative ... think about having to land in someone's back yard where you only have 10 or less meters to land in and everything else is a hazard ...
You gotta know how to fully handle your canopy under MANY various conitions (be it wind, spot, landing downwind/crosswind, etc) ... downsizing before feeling confident in lots of conditions to me is hazardous to your health, but like I said, you're responsible for yourself so you gotta make your choice:)


JPA  (C 4674)

Nov 17, 2002, 10:00 PM
Post #11 of 27 (3596 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

My instructors said exactly the same thing when I finished AFF (must be an Aussie thing). I ended up buying a 170 and put 140 jumps on it, then bought a 150. I'm glad I went about it this way because I had some well funky landings during those jumps and was glad I had the extra fabric over my head. Plus, you CAN fly a 170 at 1.1 and have fun - you can even get a bit of a swoop. I know 140 jumps isn't a lot to put on a canopy, but by the end I was front-risering nearly every landing, some down and cross wind, and getting fun, fast landings... but on the other hand, a 150 would go faster Wink
You pay your money, you take your chances Laugh


KawiZX900  (A 172050)

Nov 17, 2002, 10:18 PM
Post #12 of 27 (3589 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

i've got jumps35-46 on a sabre 2 170, it was tons of fun, right up until, i was coming back from a long spot. and chose an out away from the dz... i'm going back to the sabre 2 190, then, off to flight school for the 170, and 150...... 170 for me was loaded 1.32 or 1.35 and it was "tricky" in the RUN DMC sense of the word. and although it's flight characteristics were tits. my skill was not all conditions flight ready, as evidenced by my torn ulnal lateral maniscus in my left elbow. again, my choice, my fun, i'll do it again,and down size. just not quite as fast as i was, and again not as slow as everybody says.. it's personal, feel it thru,
i'd recomend you take a canopy control when you go to a smaller rag and have the experienced person hop and pop it with you on tha radio @.......
sabre 2 makes mouth happy.......
that canopy gets me all crazy in the head, drooling , and unable to function outside of its seductive realm.........


verticalflyer  (D 11313)

Nov 18, 2002, 2:51 AM
Post #13 of 27 (3554 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Squeak,

The only person that can tell whether you like a canopy or not is you, try out a 190, 170, 150 but stage it, in today’s market place you can demo canopies of this size easily enough. Ask yourself am I happy to jump this size when the wind picks up, when there is no wind, when I have to make a crosswind landing or downwind because I am landing off, or I have been cut up and the only other option is a last minute turn. Do I know this canopy back to front, e.g. Can I fly deep brakes and land deep brakes to sink it somewhere small, do I really know its full range can I fly it to its envelope, front risers, rear risers, break lines do I really know the limits of this canopy. If the answer is yes then move on down.

It may seem slow but you should become a far more rounded pilot and aware of why of the canopy behaves as it does, read the wing loading article on PD’s site and all the others as they are excellent at dispelling many myths about canopy performance. Also go to Bigairsportz.com website and download there owners manual, irrespective of canopy design the information is excellent and will clear up many of questions.

Above all you need to be confident about what’s above your head when your throw your PC, unfortunately when people look around today they see the likes of the Joey Jones, Doug Park, John le Blanc, Jim Slaton and think hmm no problem couple of years I can be there, those guys are super current and have progressed down to the super canopies of today through 5-10 years of being in the sport everyday with 1000’s of jumps on each canopy. (Not saying this is your approach)

I see too many people digging out of hooks/swoops all the time and when you talk to them some are receptive and some think your having a go at there ego, I just hate seeing incident reports.

So make sure you have a smile on your face when you choose your canopy and not a frown when you’re on finals and the wind just picked up. Personally my first canopy was a 210 Pegasus for about 80 jumps but that was finance driven, and due to wanting to spend money on jumps not new kit when I really did not know what I wanted other than to improve my freefall skills whilst still being happy under canopy. I then tried Sabre’s Spectre’s Pd190’, s, Fury’s, Raiders, Clipper, Jedi, Silhouette’s and Stiletto’s I used a Stilli 150 for 700 jumps then I got a Samurai 105 for my freefly and a silhouette 150 for my wing suit, I have just over 1000 jumps. I weigh 180lb geared up in case you’re wondering.

I hope some of that info helps, there’s a lot of good info out there and make the ultimate decision yourself.

Have fun stay safe.

Cheers

FraserWink


Kirils  (D License)

Nov 18, 2002, 4:08 AM
Post #14 of 27 (3542 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Just from personal experience and observations of other students ( and you may be an exception), at your experience level and loading, 150 might be a bit much. Also, the frequency that you jump is a very important number to be considered. You need to consider flight in adverse conditions, because you will have your butt in a jam one day. I would advise you to get at least 100 jumps on a 170 first. Perfect your canopy skill at the lighter loading without as much risk, then move down. Best of luck!


bobsoutar  (D 5310)

Nov 18, 2002, 4:33 AM
Post #15 of 27 (3536 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Not all 190s are a complete dog to fly. Is you instructor trying to sell you a 150 he already has?

Last thing you want is a canopy you are scared to jump - it will stop you enjoying the rest of the skydive. Work down to a 170 and stick with it until you have completely outgrown it.


Chief  (D 25365)

Nov 18, 2002, 5:22 AM
Post #16 of 27 (3518 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

When I had about your jump numbers, I went from a 190 to a 170. I weigh 190#. The 170 is a Sabre II, it handles great in the air, flies great and very responsive. The first one or two landings were a bit fast. Takes some mental prep. As for the 150, try the 170 a few times. If you can control it under all conditions, fine. If not, hold on to the 170 for a hundred jumps, then re-think the 150. Just my opinion. Good luck and stay safe.


garywainwright  (D 11021)

Nov 18, 2002, 6:33 AM
Post #17 of 27 (3505 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

The 'get bored' argument really winds me up! Will the people who are so worried that you'll get bored come and visit you in hospital?


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Nov 18, 2002, 6:35 AM
Post #18 of 27 (3499 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Use your own judgement. I have a similar exit weight and had moved to a Triathlon 160 by jump 35.

It all depends on your sense of what is safe for you and the kind of canopy you're jumping. A 150 Spectre, Triathlon or similar type of canopy (non-tapered/ square) is safer at that experience level than a tapered/ elliptical canopy. But ultimately you can get hurt under any canopy if you make the wrong piloting choices.

Ken


JYorkster  (D 23658)

Nov 18, 2002, 6:56 AM
Post #19 of 27 (3497 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Normally I say go with what your instructors say, because they know your skills the best. This time I have to deviate.

There is no reason you should need or want that wing loading at your skill level. If you can't safely land a canopy in ANY wind condition, then you shouldn't be flying it.

I live in an area where the winds are usually quite high, so everyone flies small canopies. On the few occasions when the wind dies, they crash and burn.

At 450+ jumps, I am still jumping at 1.1:1. I am an encellent canopy pilot and have jumped smaller canopies. I just see no need to put myself at a higher risk. Read the fatality reports. Look at the wing loadings and the highest percentage of canopy-related accidents.

If you were at my DZ, I'd probably be recommending no smaller than a 190 for you. Of course the type of canopy makes a difference as well.

Rock


drenaline  (C License)

Nov 18, 2002, 8:38 AM
Post #20 of 27 (3456 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

aint gonna tell you what to do, just read what happened to me and make your own conclusions since you might be a different pilot than me, the things that happened to me will or will not happen to you, thats for you to choose.

after 17 jumps in a 230 sq ft PD 9 cell I changed to a spectre 150 to a wingload of 1.25, first jumps (10 first jumps) on the new high wingloads were biffs (one of those gave me a scoliosis (twisted spine) and now am in therapy), the next 40 jumps I landed off (the spot was good but the canopy pilot sucked), now I have about 65 jumps and am flying my spectre in a sweet way, getting some swoops, flying fast and I love it with nice pillow soft stand up landings.

Not telling you what to do, but recommendations: get a 170 zp with collapsible slider, a kill line pc and microline if you want the speed (and learn how to use the risers, front and rear), there is no deal or fun with a broken spine.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 18, 2002, 9:46 AM
Post #21 of 27 (3434 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

>If I go from student 270, to 20 (or so) jumps on a 235, and some more on a
> borrowed 170, would it be uncommon for someone to go down to
> 150 within 50 jumps.

It would be uncommon, but I suspect your real question is "would it be dangerous?"

I don't tell people what I think they should jump any more. I put myself in a wheelchair at 80 jumps under a PD190 because I thought I knew what I was doing and I didn't. There are other people who can safely jump a 1.3 to 1 loading at 50 jumps. They are very rare, but they exist.

So rather than tell you what canopy you should jump I will tell you the skills you need:

-Can you land in a 10 meter target circle reliably?
-Can you land crosswind and in no wind?
-Can you land on uphill/downhill slopes?
-Can you initiate a 90 degree flat turn at 50 feet and land safely?
-Can you turn 45 degrees during the flare and land standing up?
-Can you land with rear risers?
-Can you make a double front riser/turning front riser approach?

If you can do all that on, say, the 170, there's a good chance you're ready for the 150. If you can't flat turn on the 170, and you jump the 150, then the first time someone cuts you off on final you stand a good chance of becoming a statistic. Canopy training courses are an excellent way to learn how to do all the above, and may well allow you to safely jump a 1.25 to 1 canopy at 50 jumps.


beemertec  (A License)

Nov 18, 2002, 2:58 PM
Post #22 of 27 (3382 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all I want to start by saying I am no expert, as I am newbie myself. I am only giving my experience with downsizing. I weigh about about 170 geared up. I only have 36 jumps, and it took about two months to get them. By my 12th or 13th jump I was jumping a 200 ft2 f-111. I jumped it about 3 or 4 jumps and loved it and i was ready to buy it, but my DZO recommended that I jump some amller canopies first. I jumped an aeroglide 160 zp, and to be honest the thing scared me to death. I was amazed at how much faster flew than the 200. It took me until jump 25 just to stand it up because teh extra ground speed kinda freaked me out. I have stood it up 9 out of the last ten jumps( the other one was a picture perfect plf in a mud hole, new jump suit of course). Anyway I bought a new hornet 135, because at $600.00 I couldn't pass it up. It looks awesome, and i'll bet it flies even better. Based on your DZO's advice, I would be safe on the 135. If I land at the DZ in our big landing area in perfect conditions he would probably be right. The problem is we never seem to have perfect conditions, so my 135 will be in a bag in my closet for anywhere from the next 50-200 jumps depending on my accuracy and my ability to pilot the 160 under varying conditions, and on my DZO's and S&TA's opinion. Fortunately for me they are fairly conservative when it comes to new jumpers. My recomendation is go with a larger canopy closer to 1:1 or 1.1:1 and jump it for a while. If you find a good deal like I did on a smaller canopy, buy it and store it until you're able to jump it. Again I do not profess to know what I am talking about, but you were asking for opinions.Smile


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Nov 18, 2002, 4:14 PM
Post #23 of 27 (3356 views)
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Re: [beemertec] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Jst wondering why did'nt you get a 150 instead of the 135 you bought?


beemertec  (A License)

Nov 18, 2002, 9:31 PM
Post #24 of 27 (3307 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Since I am jumping a 160 now, and I had the opportunity to buy a new canopy in my choice of sizes, my DZO recommended that I go with the 135. He did this knowing that I will not attempt to jump the 135 before I am ready and even if I think I am ready I have agreed not to jump it until he thinks I am ready. We also have 150s at the DZ which they will let me borrow to jump in my downsize progression. So even though I bought the 135 I will not go straight to it from the 160. Although I would not say that I am a conservative canopy pilot, I am not trying to set any records with my downsizing either.


jaaska  (C License)

Nov 19, 2002, 1:16 AM
Post #25 of 27 (3279 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 150 sqare foot canopy [In reply to] Can't Post

Just out of curiosity...

Are there any regulations in US concerning the canopy size (the wingload) or how "aggressive" that canopy is?

In Finland, the SIL (it's the organization in which all Finnish skydivers have to members - iow. a Finnish skydiver cannot skydive in Finland w/o being a member) has regulations from anywhere the size of the main canopy, elliptical canopy vs. the total number of jumps to how many jumps you _have to_ jump within a one season to maintain your license...

e.g. One of the regulations states that you cannot jump with an elliptical canopy before you've jumped at least 250 jumps (so until that number of jumps, no matter how big is the main, is has to be "conservative" type)...


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