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BSR proposal for canopy patterns

 

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Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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May 2, 2007, 11:54 AM
Post #101 of 292 (1003 views)
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Re: [ChrisL] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Would it have prevented 2 incidents....probably, but it doesn't address the majority of them in any way.

Out of curiosity, how many preventable deaths is acceptable to you?

If a BSR saves even ONE LIFE, I'll bet that one guy would think it was
well worth it. His one little life might not be important in the grand scheme, but I guarantee you that its EVERYTHING to him.

You just stated that it would probably have prevented TWO of these incidents.

Thats SWEET Smile

Seem to be more than adequate justification to me.

The problem, as I see it, is that it takes away from the focus of what the problem really is. It's way too easy for the skydiving population to continue to ignore the problem if they think that a BSR seperating the landing areas will fix it.

My concerns don't lay so much with the BSR as much as they lay around the mentality I am concerned they will foster. It's quite clear just how many people think the problem will magically go away with seperate landing areas without considering the other issues that may raise.

Now, of course this doesn't mean I'm against it, but instead I'd really like to see it supplemented with some sort of Canopy Coach rating and something that requires people to be trained more throughly on canopy flight, regardless of jump numbers and regardless of whether or not they're HP pilots or not.

IMO a large segment of the 'experienced' jumper community is already 'lost'. By that I mean they're never going to listen, never going to try and get better with their canopy skills, or never going to seek out better canopy knowledge and instruction. There's not much we can do about them....what I want to be sure of, is that we are priming ourselves to better educate the next generation of jumpers and not just trying to put up a BSR to make ourselves feel better about the problem without actually dealing with the root cause of it.

Blues,
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on May 2, 2007, 11:55 AM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

May 2, 2007, 12:00 PM
Post #102 of 292 (997 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
I didn't state they are the problem. But the inherent speed differentials and rate of descent do seem incompatible with a crowded landing area. If people spend all their time looking 400ft above and behind, when do they look forward where they're going?

Why should they spend their time looking 400ft above and behind?

Rules of flight clearly say that the low man has right of way, and that anyone choosing to hook from above must give way.

And how well has that been working...

The whole reason we're having this discussion is because it doesn't. And if you don't want to blame the swooper (as you indicated to me yesterday), then you blame the system and try to improve it. Again the reason for this discussion.

Many people also have expressed the sentiment that if you skydive, you accept the risk of this happening to you. (And keep your head on a swivel) Clearly not everyone wants to accept this risk anymore.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

May 2, 2007, 12:16 PM
Post #103 of 292 (982 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
68 seconds per jump average.
I didn't know jumping from 14K was typical 20 to 30 years ago.
In reply to:

A pointless contribution to the thread, but hey, I'll bite. 20 to 30 years ago people wore big, baggy jumpsuits and fell considerably slower. Also, people generally pulled at two grand because their mains didn't take 1000 feet to open.


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

May 2, 2007, 12:42 PM
Post #104 of 292 (961 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IMO a large segment of the 'experienced' jumper community is already 'lost'. By that I mean they're never going to listen, never going to try and get better with their canopy skills, or never going to seek out better canopy knowledge and instruction. There's not much we can do about them....

Yes there is. Not just Create, But enforce rules for landing patterns.

A BSR helps define what these rules are.

This will make it easier to get rid of/ Ground/ or otherwise address these LOST jumpers you are referring to. As it stands now, There are really no clearly defined rules except at certain DZ`s.


ChrisL  (C 35323)

May 2, 2007, 12:47 PM
Post #105 of 292 (955 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now, of course this doesn't mean I'm against it, but instead I'd really like to see it supplemented with some sort of Canopy Coach rating and something that requires people to be trained more throughly on canopy flight, regardless of jump numbers and regardless of whether or not they're HP pilots or not.

I would certainly support viewing a BSR as "a good start" but not a solution in and of itself.

We dont want to dismiss it because its not perfect, though, and waiting for the perfect solution could take a long time and cost a lot of lives in the meantime.

Certainly more issues will need to be addressed.

Lets start with this now and then refine it as we go along.
One of the couple lives it saves might be yours or mine Smile

From a trauma surgeons point of view, we should stabilize the patient first.


(This post was edited by ChrisL on May 2, 2007, 12:57 PM)


jumper03  (D License)

May 2, 2007, 12:57 PM
Post #106 of 292 (938 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The problem, as I see it, is that it takes away from the focus of what the problem really is. It's way too easy for the skydiving population to continue to ignore the problem if they think that a BSR seperating the landing areas will fix it.

My concerns don't lay so much with the BSR as much as they lay around the mentality I am concerned they will foster. It's quite clear just how many people think the problem will magically go away with seperate landing areas without considering the other issues that may raise.

I've been mulling over this, reading the replies from both sides and my thoughts have finally matured to a point I'll throw in a half cent or so.

Ian - correct me if I'm wrong - but the argument I am hearing from the swoopers side is that education of jumpers (or lack thereof) is the root cause.

The 'other side' (if you want to call it that) wants to remove swoopers from the equation by isolating them to another landing area or seperate passes.

Why can't this BSR or something similar be the vehicle for that education? Example - lets say you have a 30 jump guy/girl, sees a swooper tearing up the swoop area.
"I want to land there"
"You can't"
"Why not?"
"You don't swoop."
"well, how do I swoop?"
"Come this way young padawan..."

Or during the ground training - you mention two seperate landing areas - a student raises his hand "why the two areas?" that would provide a nice segue into a discussion on the differences in landing pattern and why the pattern must be followed. (Maybe we need to go a step further and actually look at canopy licences??) It seems many of the BSRs that are in place now are written in the blood of the jumpers that came before us.

I will agree with everyone that it is a problem we all have to face up to but not just this one issue - it pertains to ALL the BSRs and practices that keep us safe - from helmets on during take off (how many of you violate that?) to having your main container open by the appropriate altitude (how many bust that one on a regular basis?)

I support the BSR but only if it is used to enhance jumper education so that in the end - it really becomes a moot point because jumpers are looking out for each other in the air.

Okay- maybe that was more of a 1/4 cent...

Jump


diablopilot  (D License)

May 2, 2007, 1:14 PM
Post #107 of 292 (921 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
I didn't state they are the problem. But the inherent speed differentials and rate of descent do seem incompatible with a crowded landing area. If people spend all their time looking 400ft above and behind, when do they look forward where they're going?

Why should they spend their time looking 400ft above and behind?

Rules of flight clearly say that the low man has right of way, and that anyone choosing to hook from above must give way.

And how well has that been working...
Quote:

It's been working great. Where and when it's enforced.

One more time, like the broken record I am..... "Who ya gonna get to enforce this BSR?"


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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May 2, 2007, 1:49 PM
Post #108 of 292 (898 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

> It's quite clear just how many people think the problem will magically
> go away with seperate landing areas without considering the other issues
> that may raise.

I haven't spoken to/emailed a single person who thinks that this BSR will make the problem magically go away, any more than the pull altitude BSR made low pulls magically go away. It did not stop them - but it did help DZO's enforce reasonable pull altitudes.

>but instead I'd really like to see it supplemented with some sort of
>Canopy Coach rating and something that requires people to be trained
>more throughly on canopy flight . . .

I agree 100%. I tried pushing for that two years ago, but unfortunately our efforts (letters to Parachutist, emailing RD's and the BOD) didn't produce much in the way of results. We're trying a different tack this time. It may not work either, but I think I owe it to Bob to try.

This is an important part of the discussion, but not really applicable to this BSR. I'll start another thread on the subject.

>IMO a large segment of the 'experienced' jumper community is already 'lost'.

I also agree with that. These people will not be helped by any sort of educational program, because they already know it all. The only thing that will stop these people is a DZO who says "violate that rule one more time and you're grounded."


chriswelker  (D 19678)

May 2, 2007, 2:06 PM
Post #109 of 292 (887 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

   

Quote:
Now, of course this doesn't mean I'm against it, but instead I'd really like to see it supplemented with some sort of Canopy Coach rating and something that requires people to be trained more throughly on canopy flight, regardless of jump numbers and regardless of whether or not they're HP pilots or not.

I was taught by my instructors how to fly and land a parachute without injuring myself or others during AFF.

After 2200+ canopy landings I guess I should feel lucky to be alive without all that fancy canopy school stuff. If these self proclaimed canopy experts/coaches can teach me how to survive a fall from 100 feet after being crashed into PLEASE sign me up, until then I will just keep working with what I already know, thank you.

It seems to me that more people are getting injured and killed under canopy since these canopy courses have been taught.

Bottom line is I have a whole lot to live for and I don't need someone taking me out and I am going to do everything I can to protect myself. If this means supporting rules in order to do so, then so be it.

Chris


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 2, 2007, 2:17 PM
Post #110 of 292 (876 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

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After 2200+ canopy landings I guess I should feel lucky to be alive without all that fancy canopy school stuff.

That right there, IMO, is part of the problem. Last I checked none of us knew it all, regardless of how many skydives we have.

Quote:
Bottom line is I have a whole lot to live for and I don't need someone taking me out and I am going to do everything I can to protect myself.

So if you're going to do everything you can to protect yourself, you don't consider continuing to educate yourself on good canopy practices (be that swooping or regular landings) to encompass that?

Quote:
It seems to me that more people are getting injured and killed under canopy since these canopy courses have been taught.

Come on Chris, I met you a few years ago so I hope I'm taking this out of context, but I hope you aren't suggesting that the education of canopy pilots is hurting more than helping?

Blues
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on May 2, 2007, 2:20 PM)


chriswelker  (D 19678)

May 2, 2007, 2:39 PM
Post #111 of 292 (859 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So if you're going to do everything you can to protect yourself, you don't consider continuing to educate yourself on good canopy practices (be that swooping or regular landings) to encompass that?

Beacuse it would be like taking sand to the beach, not necessary.

Quote:
Come on Chris, I met you a few years ago so I hope I'm taking this out of context, but I hope you aren't suggesting that the education of canopy pilots is hurting more than helping?

YES, YES I AM!

Chris


marks  (D 22296)

May 2, 2007, 2:47 PM
Post #112 of 292 (851 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
So if you're going to do everything you can to protect yourself, you don't consider continuing to educate yourself on good canopy practices (be that swooping or regular landings) to encompass that?

Beacuse it would be like taking sand to the beach, not necessary.

Quote:
Come on Chris, I met you a few years ago so I hope I'm taking this out of context, but I hope you aren't suggesting that the education of canopy pilots is hurting more than helping?

YES, YES I AM!

Chris

please point out to me why you think that it is hurting more than it is helping.

why do you think this?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 2, 2007, 3:05 PM
Post #113 of 292 (833 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Well then I guess we disagree 100% on the issue.

Personally I think 'thinking you know it all' mentality is the biggest culprit.

I'd be interested to see, of those that are statistics, who furthered themself by education and who thought they were above it.

Blues,
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on May 2, 2007, 3:14 PM)


chriswelker  (D 19678)

May 2, 2007, 3:06 PM
Post #114 of 292 (831 views)
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Re: [marks] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
please point out to me why you think that it is hurting more than it is helping.

why do you think this?

Because more people are getting killed or injured under open flying canopies while skydiving as a whole is getting smaller.

If education is doing so much good would you please show me your numbers to back this up?

It is all about the results!


Chris


marks  (D 22296)

May 2, 2007, 3:13 PM
Post #115 of 292 (823 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

actually, the education i have seen is seeping its way into the mainstream. just because it is not so wide spread yet does not mean it isnt working.

the problem is, only a small percent of people are getting it.


(This post was edited by marks on May 2, 2007, 3:13 PM)


Legs  (B 106226)

May 2, 2007, 3:24 PM
Post #116 of 292 (812 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
please point out to me why you think that it is hurting more than it is helping.

why do you think this?

Because more people are getting killed or injured under open flying canopies while skydiving as a whole is getting smaller.

If education is doing so much good would you please show me your numbers to back this up?

It is all about the results!


Chris
One potential cause of education causing more harm than good is introducing high performance tecniques to "younger" skydivers (by younger read less experienced).

I don't know that I agree with this but can see a little logic in it. Also high performance landings may be more mainstream and seen more. I say its down to the CCI/DZO to set strict limits on experience levels carrying out HPL

Just a newbies .02Wink


BMFin

May 2, 2007, 3:34 PM
Post #117 of 292 (803 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Generally I would agree that education is a good thing. It sure is.

On the other hand Im not so sure weather it would really make that much difference. Im sure most of us have been taught that doing HP -landings in traffic is dangerous. On this specific problem education IMO is not the biggest problem. The attitudes towards these known facts are.

I dont see why specific HP-landing areas whould be that bad idea. After all its going to make my airspace clear and this way decreasing the possibility of me being cut off by a SLP jumper below me.

I would see this as a win win situation where no one looses and everyone wins.

Sure on some dropzones this could mean the HPL area is not as ideally located next to the packing hangar, but its a fair price to pay for the advantages achieved


kelpdiver  (B 7)

May 2, 2007, 3:48 PM
Post #118 of 292 (794 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

After 2200+ canopy landings I guess I should feel lucky to be alive without all that fancy canopy school stuff. If these self proclaimed canopy experts/coaches can teach me how to survive a fall from 100 feet after being crashed into PLEASE sign me up, until then I will just keep working with what I already know, thank you.

I've now taken one from both of the two most commonly named canaopy classes. One was a great value for the money, and the other was a good day to practice HnPs. But neither contained anything that would increase the accident rate.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

May 2, 2007, 3:52 PM
Post #119 of 292 (788 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's been working great. Where and when it's enforced.

One more time, like the broken record I am..... "Who ya gonna get to enforce this BSR?"

I agree, a BSR that just says, don't swoop in traffic, won't accomplish anything if DZOs don't enforce it.

But a BSR (NW) that directs DZs to segment their traffic will result in change.


diablopilot  (D License)

May 2, 2007, 3:59 PM
Post #120 of 292 (782 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry to sound repetitive, but only if enforced.


raymond_jones  (D License)

May 2, 2007, 4:40 PM
Post #121 of 292 (759 views)
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Re: [billvon] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

i always thought a BSR stood for Basic Safety Recomendation. And a recomendation is just that a recomendation. as in wearing and altimeter, landing into the wind, ect. since the uspa is not a regulatory authority on skydiving, or so they claim in all their publications, and only give recomendations........... is this BSR really going to matter? nobody, and I mean nobody, does everything by the "book" on every skydive. until they do, including instructers especially, they have no hill, or legal standpoint, to stand on. what are the consenquesnces is a DZ is not a U.S.P.A. member? higher insurance and no reference of your buisness in their magazine? my point is: "don't put faith in govt., throughout history there has been revolts and the govt. overthrown, and a new govt has been put into place, until another one comes." Besides isn't having a monoply on something in the U.S. illegal?

"Less bitching, more jumping, let the tards weed themselves out!!!!!"


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

May 2, 2007, 4:49 PM
Post #122 of 292 (751 views)
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Re: [raymond_jones] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

i agree...until a "tard" kills someone else.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

May 2, 2007, 4:59 PM
Post #123 of 292 (745 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry to sound repetitive, but only if enforced.

It's a lot easier to enfoce a rule on the dropzone. Everyone observes it. Only those nearby in the landing order may notice an individual violation, and if friends, may not care as much.


dob  (D 5362)

May 2, 2007, 6:26 PM
Post #124 of 292 (715 views)
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Re: [Mostly_Harmless] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello, I am one of the authors of the BSR proposal.
"dob" Dan O'Brien.
31 years "o my gawd" 31 years of skydiving.
mostly competition belly flying.
few hundred wingsuit jumps.
few hundred headdown.
except for 25 round jumps and an A license under reserves, almost all high wing loaded canopy landings.
so, yes, i guess i'm a swooper.

Canopy flight education is great, if everybody groks it/understands it. Many do not.
So, everybody must become involved in "enforcement". Everybody must bear responsibility for theirs and others canopy control. Speak up, make a difference.

The 6 fatailies in 4 months from canopy collisions has caused this knee to jerk. Along with the accumulation over the past 20+ years of perfectly good canopies being flown into other skydivers and the Earth.

SKYDIVING HISTORY
-less than 100 skydives in last year, not so current as I used to be as a DZO, 500 a year.
-last skydive, releasing Bob Holler's ashes in freefall 23 March 2007.
-canopy wing loading for past 10 years; 2.1 - 1.7.
-landing pattern, aggressive, 180 or greater to final BUT will follow rules, mostly.
-number of friends buried or in wheelchairs from canopy collisions; 11 and climbing.


-2007 31 years skydiving; 9,9998 Skydives; 170+ hours of freefall; former DZO. past ratings: PRO Rating, JM, S/L, AFF, Tandem; 10 years as Coordinator for High Altitude (30,000 ft.) skydives.
-2006 World Team ‘06: FAI Official World’s largest skydiving formation (400 skydivers, 30 nations): Assistant Aerial Director and Participant.
-2004 World Team ‘04: FAI Official World’s largest skydiving formation (357 skydivers, 28 nations): Assistant Aerial Director and Participant.
-2002 Airspeed 300: FAI Official World’s largest skydiving formation (300 skydivers, 12 nations): Alpha-Team Captain.
-2000 1986-2000 DZO SkyDance SkyDiving Davis, CA
-1999 World Team ’99: FAI Official World’s largest skydiving formation (282 skydivers, 32 nations): Assistant Aerial Director and Participant.
-1997 3rd Blade Running Championships; Squaw Valley, California, USA: Event Manager, Site Coordinator and Assistant Technical Organizer.
-1996 World Team ’96: World’s largest skydiving formation (297 skydivers, 24 nations): Assistant Aerial Director and Participant.
-1996 2ND Blade Running Championships; Squaw Valley, California, USA: Event Manager, Site Coordinator and Assistant Technical Organizer.
-1994 World Team ’94: World’s largest skydiving formation (216 skydivers, 26 nations): Co-captain, Participant.
-1992 World Record 200-person skydiving formation: Co-captain and Participant.
-1991 Boogie in Bali II: Assistant Festival Director & Technical Organizer.
-1991 9TH World Parachuting Championship, Formation Skydiving; Czechoslovakia:
US Team Leader.
-1991 Friendship ’91: team member, trained and competed at USSR National Championships.
-1990 Jakarta Air Show, Indonesia: Demo Team Coordinator.
-1989 Indonesian Int. Skydiving Championship, Bali: Assistant Festival Director & Technical Organizer (750 participants, 29 nations).
-1988 24TH Olympiad, Olympic Opening Ceremonies; Seoul, Republic of Korea: Assistant Co-Organizer, Choreographer and Performer. Seoul Olympic Skydiving Exhibition Team (100 members); Deputy Director: Olympic Rings Freefall Exhibition.
-1987 World Cup of Champions, Seoul, Republic of Korea: Team Captain for concept of 1988 Olympic skydive.
-1986 FAI Official World Record 100-person skydiving formation: Participant.
-1982 World Cup Parachuting Championships, Formation Skydiving; Austria: US Team Captain, competitor. World Champion 8way and 4way and Bronze Medal 4way.
-1980 FAI Official World Record 40-person skydiving formation: Participant.


kallend  (D 23151)

May 2, 2007, 6:57 PM
Post #125 of 292 (698 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] BSR proposal for canopy patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Quote:
So if you're going to do everything you can to protect yourself, you don't consider continuing to educate yourself on good canopy practices (be that swooping or regular landings) to encompass that?

What exactly is a person flying a regular pattern with 90 degree turns supposed to do to protect themselves from being hit by someone starting a HPL 300ft above them and closing in fast on them from above and behind? What education would prevent that person from becoming a fatality?


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