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Head Down Help

 

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Ktownbret  (C 3247)

Apr 22, 2007, 1:39 AM
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Head Down Help Can't Post

Ok, so here's where I'm at. After probably 40 jumps trying to cartwheel into a head down, with no success, I tried a new approach. I can now do a nice slow backloop on exit(cessna 182)into a head down that feels quite stable(bending my legs, and straightning out my head seemed to be my problems). My body is straight. I am mostly feeling the wind on the front of my thighs. I seem to be able to drive my hips either forward or back slightly, and spill air from one side of my body to the other. I "think" I am falling straight down the pipe. On my last jump today i managed to start a turn, but it caused me to go unstable. I can recouver no prob back to my sit, but for the life of me I can't catrwheel back. I can do nice cartwheels all day long from my sit, but can't seem to be able to stop them half way. I can also get back into a head down from my belly no problem.

So my question is, what do I do next? My dropzone has no freefly coaches. I have one friend who has a great sit, and just started flying camera. She is still a little nervous with her camera. Do I keep doing what I'm doing, trying to make this position feel natural? Do I try to get my friend to shoot video of me from a sit/stand?(would this be dangerous?) or do I keep trying the transitions?

Any help would be greatly appriciated.


bofh  (D 13995)

Apr 22, 2007, 2:37 AM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So my question is, what do I do next? My dropzone has no freefly coaches. I have one friend who has a great sit, and just started flying camera. She is still a little nervous with her camera. Do I keep doing what I'm doing, trying to make this position feel natural? Do I try to get my friend to shoot video of me from a sit/stand?(would this be dangerous?) or do I keep trying the transitions?

Yes, try to get it on video (or just jump with her and let her tell you what she saw). If you usually travel forward after the transition to HD, take heading next to her or even let her film/watch you from the side. If you feel you go out of control and travel towards her, just transition back to sit and regain control.

I've got the same problem, my problem is that I try to do the transition too fast and don't pull up my legs enough. That gives me a lot of rotational speed, making it really hard to come out of the transiation anywhere near stable... When I try to make it really slow it is a easier and I'm a bit more stable after the transition (but I still end up moving backwards a lot and losing speed when overcompensating for it repeatedly...).


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Apr 22, 2007, 3:03 AM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

get ready to travel....

if you have no freefly coaches get youself to a place that does have them...

it makes things a lot easier to fix then trying to fix bad habits later on in the skydiving career

Dave


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

Apr 23, 2007, 6:27 PM
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Re: [dharma1976] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

ya, the closest place for coaching is Vancouver, about 4 hour away for me. I've been trying to get out there for the last month, but they have had rain forcasted every weekend. Mad At least Ive had mother nature on my side at my home dz. I did 3 head down solos yesterday. Never got any video but I did manage to pull off my first really sloppy transision. Tongue Definatly a baby step!! Hopefully Van will get some better weather this weekend, and I will get some coaching. But once again their forcast looks grim.
It's a long way to drive to get rained out.

GO CANUKS GO!!!!!!


TaylorC  (D 29769)

Apr 23, 2007, 9:07 PM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ya, the closest place for coaching is Vancouver, about 4 hour away for me. I've been trying to get out there for the last month, but they have had rain forcasted every weekend. Mad At least Ive had mother nature on my side at my home dz. I did 3 head down solos yesterday. Never got any video but I did manage to pull off my first really sloppy transision. Tongue Definatly a baby step!! Hopefully Van will get some better weather this weekend, and I will get some coaching. But once again their forcast looks grim.
It's a long way to drive to get rained out.

GO CANUKS GO!!!!!!

I just noticed you live in kelwona and jump in vernon and i live in kamloops. I will probally be coming out to Vernon DZ sometime this month and would be willing to film you and give you pointers people have given me as well since i just started on my head as well. Probally head out to vernon DZ to jump in about 3 weeks.


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

Apr 24, 2007, 8:59 AM
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Re: [TaylorC] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

Sweet!!! Thanx man!!! I really need the help. Definatly ready for some referance points to find out whats really going on up there.


glorystomper  (D 23514)

Apr 24, 2007, 4:56 PM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

If you feel the wind on your thighs then you're probably back-sliding. I would definitely try to make a jump with your friend so you can at least have a point of reference to tell if you're indeed falling straight down.

Ducks in 5!


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

Apr 24, 2007, 5:54 PM
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Re: [glorystomper] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

I very well might be back sliding. But, the Ducks in 5? Never!!! I'd put a jump ticket on it!!!

I say Canuks in 6. Thats only if the can find a way past Lui.

GO CANUKS GO!!!!


Newbie  (C License)

Apr 26, 2007, 9:35 AM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I very well might be back sliding. But, the Ducks in 5? Never!!! I'd put a jump ticket on it!!!

I say Canuks in 6. Thats only if the can find a way past Lui.

GO CANUKS GO!!!!

If on exit you do a half back loop and backslide and don't know if you are falling down the tube, you might well be sliding up or down jump run (unless of course you are turning 90 degrees off it first, and even then you might be moving up or down it).

I was told not to use an inexperienced jumper as a ref point when learning hd as you can end up fixating and moving towards them fast, and they might not have the experience to get out of the way.

Personally i think what some of the others said is a great idea - travel and do a short camp thing, maybe a long weekend if you can, with a good coach. You need to know you have found your neutral point and aren't zooming about the place.


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

Apr 26, 2007, 6:11 PM
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Re: [Newbie] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

Great advice!! I am taking into acount my movements on exit. I am lucky to have a pilot and dz who are giving me the spot and exit order I need to practice this safely. I have been going out last, and have been giving myself a good 12 seconds or more (depending on wind). Even getting my own pass when necasary.

having said that I am pretty sure I not moving around too much(maybe on exit). I have been practicing spilling air from one side of my body to the other. I am feeling air on my thighs. I have found that more i bend my legs the more stable I seem to feel. When I do this I can still spill air off either side. I also managed to start and stop a turn. It felt like i was turning on the spot, not orbitting. Pretty hard to be sure though.

They are forcasting some sun for Vancouver this weekend, and I have a coach lined up who has agreed to work with me. hopfully get 5 or 6 with him.

Thanx for all the help


TaylorC  (D 29769)

Apr 26, 2007, 7:11 PM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Great advice!! I am taking into acount my movements on exit. I am lucky to have a pilot and dz who are giving me the spot and exit order I need to practice this safely. I have been going out last, and have been giving myself a good 12 seconds or more (depending on wind). Even getting my own pass when necasary.

having said that I am pretty sure I not moving around too much(maybe on exit). I have been practicing spilling air from one side of my body to the other. I am feeling air on my thighs. I have found that more i bend my legs the more stable I seem to feel. When I do this I can still spill air off either side. I also managed to start and stop a turn. It felt like i was turning on the spot, not orbitting. Pretty hard to be sure though.

They are forcasting some sun for Vancouver this weekend, and I have a coach lined up who has agreed to work with me. hopfully get 5 or 6 with him.

Thanx for all the help

You going to pitt? Whose doing the coaching?


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

Apr 26, 2007, 10:02 PM
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Re: [TaylorC] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

Ya, Sunday for sure. I was actually thinking of hitting Kamloops on Sat.

Dave Dave said he'd help me out. He's the one who told me to bend my legs to straighten out my back. Worked like a charm. I couldn't believe it.

Where are you jumping this weekend?


TaylorC  (D 29769)

Apr 27, 2007, 6:12 AM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ya, Sunday for sure. I was actually thinking of hitting Kamloops on Sat.

Dave Dave said he'd help me out. He's the one who told me to bend my legs to straighten out my back. Worked like a charm. I couldn't believe it.

Where are you jumping this weekend?

not jumping till next weekend due to not having my rig at the moment but i will be in either pitt or snohomish not this weekend but the weekend after that. Dave Dave is a great coach.

And i don't jump in kamloops anymore


(This post was edited by TaylorC on Apr 27, 2007, 6:28 AM)


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

Apr 30, 2007, 3:43 PM
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Re: [dharma1976] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

Got some great coaching this weekend. did 4 coached jumps, and a handfull of solos. I discouvered that what i thought was neutral was actually a bit of forward drive. Not ripping all over the sky, but definatly moving forward. I managed to counter this, but it was a little shacky.

Still having some trouble with the transisions, but i did manage to pull a few of them off(stills pretty sloppy). Front loops seem to be easyer for me then cartwheels. I think the more time i spend in the position the easier it will be.

I think my next solo jumps I will try to just drive back. Hopfully this will help me learn to be neutral.

Anybody have any more ideas for solo drills?


sarabennett  (D 28147)

May 4, 2007, 8:22 PM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

Working on drive backslide is best with a coach, but if you are stuck doing solos not only work on feeling the air on your front and back, but also the visual of the changing horizon. When you are falling straight down in a straddle with knees slightly bent, toes flexed and forward and shoulders over hips and head over shoulders you should see the horizon level. When you backslide bring your knees and toes forward and you should see more ground. When you change to driving forward push your heels back in relation to your hips and you should see more sky. Work on going back and forward more dramatic at first, then try to bring the control level in and eventually know what going straight down is. If you can be at the Vancouver boogie this summer, Dusty Smith will be there and he can help you.
Make sure when you are doing this you are perpendicular to jumprun, or at minimum give alot of horizonal seperation in case you end up tracking up or down line of flight by accident.


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

May 8, 2007, 9:23 AM
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Re: [sarabennett] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

thanx for the advice. I have just started to be aware of the horizen level. I did a couple jumps with some good freeflyers this weekend, and was able to counter my forward drive easily. Still haven't worked on the "dramatic" movements. We're jumping tomorrow, maybe I'll work on it then. I think its time I started trying to learn to slow it down alittle too. We're having a boogy in Kamloops the weekend after next, and Max Cone will be coaching there. Hopfully I'll get a few jumps in with him.

What boogy will Dusty Smith be at? Pitt Meadows or Abbotsford? I will be at both of them anyway.


TaylorC  (D 29769)

May 8, 2007, 2:09 PM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
thanx for the advice. I have just started to be aware of the horizen level. I did a couple jumps with some good freeflyers this weekend, and was able to counter my forward drive easily. Still haven't worked on the "dramatic" movements. We're jumping tomorrow, maybe I'll work on it then. I think its time I started trying to learn to slow it down alittle too. We're having a boogy in Kamloops the weekend after next, and Max Cone will be coaching there. Hopfully I'll get a few jumps in with him.

What boogy will Dusty Smith be at? Pitt Meadows or Abbotsford? I will be at both of them anyway.

Dusty Smith will be at the Abby boogie


muzzler

May 15, 2007, 8:03 AM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey dude,I can possibly help you?
I teach head down in a tunnel and understand the dynamics pretty well.
Firstly,think of the direction that the wind is flowing past your body when you are vertical...?
Ok,any body pitch (presenting more chest or back)
will alter your drive.
More chest(front torso) will drive you backwards and eventually push you onto your belly if you present too much .
The more you present your back to the wind,the drive becomes forward,leading to ending up on your back (if too much presented.
work on keeping your head ,or visuals on the horizon and try relax the arms a little.

Its difficult to explain in writing,dont force the position,kinda relax and noodle out....

hope that shed some light on the situation??


tuck  (D 29242)

May 24, 2007, 12:39 AM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

    muzzler has some good advice for sure. eps about the relaxed arms. i prob dont need to say this at this point, but speaking from very close calls and personal experience, be super careful about using too much pitch angle when learning HD movement. esp when flying with newer freeflyers who will not be able to dodge a VERY fast forward drive or cork.
head down is a power position that can achieve incredible forward speeds with very little effort, as im sure you have seen. when i was learning head down i was lucky enough to have great coaches that stressed that this is another level of flying and "slow is fast". small movements must be drilled into you first. some told me to lead with my head and let it direct me to where i want to go. this resulted in fast forward drive by presenting more of my lower back to the wind (which is what muzzler was saying). it was too fast for me to control at the time and i would shoot past my slot (not to mention scaring the crap out of who ever is on the jump with you when you go screaming at them at warp speed with a terrified look on your face). others told me to push my legs against the relative wind and feel the air on my shins or calves. this, for me, produced slower and controlled movement. it also taught me how to put on the breaks and stop where i wanted. after that i was drilled in chasing my coach at varied speeds, which let me feel the aggressive power when pitching my body and putting more wind on my back.
through this awesome combo of great coaches and a scary close call, i gained a huge respect for the power and grace of head down flying. i understand not every drop zone has pro freefly coaches, and i consider myself lucky to have them, but the most important thing i was taught from them was "slow is fast". in EVERY aspect of our awesome sport. you sound like your staying safe about it, and if you heard this all before... it was a nice reminder for myself too :) i hope that trying to put all those coached dirt dives, jumps, and debriefs will help you in the quest to fly head down as it did for me.

blue skys

tuck

:::"never stop learning":::


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

May 24, 2007, 8:24 AM
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Re: [muzzler] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

right on, Thanx. I am starting to be more aware of these things in freefall. It feeling better and better every jump. My last head down solo I just concentrated on the horizen. Getting to move up or down slightly, Its still kind of shaky when I start trying to move it around, but its coming. Starting to be able to turn too. Tongue

I've got my front loop transisions to were i can do them 9 out of 10 times, but I'm still having a hell of a time trying to cartwheel. Unsure


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

May 24, 2007, 3:41 PM
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Re: [tuck] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

wow,

thats some good advice.

My arms are definatly realxed. I have them dangelling in front of me, palms towards my feet. I seem to be able to move them around anywhere without effecting my flight much. I"ve tried to spread them out a few times, seemed easy.

I think that your comments about slowing down the movments is bang on. I did some coaching this past weekend, and had a very similar close call. After corking to my sit, then transisioning back to head down, I ended up about 100 ft from my coach. I decided in my head that I was going to close the distance. I think I got there in about 2 seconds. Much faster then I had planned. Crazy He seen me coming and backslide away(thanx Dave,Dave). I was able to put on the breaks when I was almost there, but slide 20 ft past him. This expierience would of be dangerous if i was out with anyone less then a ninja in the air. I definatly need to slow down this movement to make it safe and usfull. The leg thing makes sence. I'm also using my head to iniciat the movement. The legs are a much smaller surface then the the back. I will try this on saterday.

I think the slow is fast theory applies the head down more then any other asspect of skydiving.

My close call has definatly gave me more respect for this posision. My new theory is going to be if i get more then about 30 ft from whoever i am flying with I will return to my sit, and get back in the dive, then transision to head down, if i have time of course.

...the leg thing was new too me. Every little bit of info helps.

Thanx again to everyone on here!!!!

Smile I am slowly getting it!!! Cool


TaylorC  (D 29769)

May 25, 2007, 6:32 AM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
wow,

thats some good advice.

My arms are definatly realxed. I have them dangelling in front of me, palms towards my feet. I seem to be able to move them around anywhere without effecting my flight much. I"ve tried to spread them out a few times, seemed easy.

I think that your comments about slowing down the movments is bang on. I did some coaching this past weekend, and had a very similar close call. After corking to my sit, then transisioning back to head down, I ended up about 100 ft from my coach. I decided in my head that I was going to close the distance. I think I got there in about 2 seconds. Much faster then I had planned. Crazy He seen me coming and backslide away(thanx Dave,Dave). I was able to put on the breaks when I was almost there, but slide 20 ft past him. This expierience would of be dangerous if i was out with anyone less then a ninja in the air. I definatly need to slow down this movement to make it safe and usfull. The leg thing makes sence. I'm also using my head to iniciat the movement. The legs are a much smaller surface then the the back. I will try this on saterday.

I think the slow is fast theory applies the head down more then any other asspect of skydiving.

My close call has definatly gave me more respect for this posision. My new theory is going to be if i get more then about 30 ft from whoever i am flying with I will return to my sit, and get back in the dive, then transision to head down, if i have time of course.

...the leg thing was new too me. Every little bit of info helps.

Thanx again to everyone on here!!!!

Smile I am slowly getting it!!! Cool

you going to be in pitt this weekend?


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

May 25, 2007, 8:17 AM
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Re: [TaylorC] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

No I have some things I need to do around Kelowna this weekend. Next weekend I will be in Pitt for sure. I think need to do some more on my own befor I go for more coaching anyways.

I'm going to be starting to fly my camera this weekend too. So I'm probably going to have to spend a few jumps just getting it dialed in.


Ktownbret  (C 3247)

May 31, 2007, 8:28 AM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

Going to be jumping in Pitt Friday, Saterday and Sunday. Come on out and help me keep that King Air running.


TaylorC  (D 29769)

May 31, 2007, 10:44 AM
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Re: [Ktownbret] Head Down Help [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Going to be jumping in Pitt Friday, Saterday and Sunday. Come on out and help me keep that King Air running.

hopefully gonna be jumping in kamloops this weekend but not sure yet. Will be out there the weekend after next though.


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