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Packer quality control?

 

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councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 18, 2007, 8:03 PM
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Packer quality control? Can't Post

I recently serviced a rig for a new customer. The jumper has about 100 jumps. As I opened the main I noted several items for comment. Not completely wrong but not the best practices in my opinion and seemingly the kind of things a newer jumper might do.

I started discussing these items with him and he told me the main had been packed by a packer in Florida during his last trip.

The items I noted included:

40" of unstowed line between the bag and the links. Many recommend 18 to 24". Don't think anybody recommends this much. It may have been because the side where the next stow would be didn't have another rubber band athough it could have.

The stows were only about an inch long past the rubber band. Not long enough in my opinion.

The steering lines had migrated to the front of the canopy during cocooning.

The excess brake line was not stowed in the keeper supplied on the riser but flapping loose. (It was the packer that stowed the brakes.)

The routing of the bridle out to the pocket wasn't as secure as it could have been with this rig.

While packing is an art and there are as many variations as there are packers, this seemed to be a lot of questionable issues.

Somewhere, there is a rigger who has responsibility for this pack job. It may be the person who packed it or it may be a supervising rigger. But, do these issues concern anyone else?

I personally don't use a packer. I don't jump where packers are routinely available or in situations such as record attempts or team jumps where my time is needed elsewhere, and I've always trusted myself more than others. When I started jumping and for much of my career packers didn't exist.

Now if the main opens resonably well nobody will ever know about these issues. I expect rarely does a packer pack job get opened other than in the air. But it seems that this packer needs some additional instruction or supervision, or at least some discussion about their choices.

Does any supervising rigger or DZ have any kind of quality control in place? Perhaps spot checking a pack job or more closely watching a pack job every so often?

Or does anybody care?Tongue

Discuss.

Just wondering.Angelic

And no, I don't have a clue who or where this was other than in Florida.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Apr 18, 2007, 8:22 PM
Post #2 of 75 (2444 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why not call that DZ and speak to the RIC about your observations. Maybe they'll start a QC program.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 18, 2007, 8:39 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't know the DZ. I could probably find out but not sure I want to.Crazy


Lokhmaty  (Student)

Apr 18, 2007, 9:54 PM
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Re: [councilman24] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is exactly what I was always talking about! There are waaaaaaaaaaay tooooooooooo many packers whos concern is just 5 or 6 bucks for pack job and nothing else. They do not even bother to think about what could happen in the skies. Line dump, line over/twist, premature deployment - who cares? I've got my 5 bucks and everything else is just "bad body position" or "shit happens"... Mad This is sort of understandable thing - pay your money and take your chances. But isn't it too much "yours" in here? Where is the packer part? Funny thing, when somebody trying to say something (complain would be better word) about hard opening or something that went wrong and related strictly to packing, they always gets these answers.


everymansaved  (C License)

Apr 18, 2007, 10:27 PM
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Re: [councilman24] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

We just visited another DZ and my wife employed the services of a few packers down there, and she ran into a lot of the same issues. When I unpacked the rig to wash the container, there was over 3' of unstowed line, steering lines not stowed, old rubber bands still on the keepers with new ones beside them, etc... Exactly like Terry said: nothing grossly neglegent, but concerning matters all the same, espacially on a higher loaded eliptical. I was quite curious to see how the "supervised by a rigger" thing worked down in the states (I'm in Canada), and I can say now that the purpose of the law is being totally undermined. From what I saw, there is little or no "supervision." Not saying that it's absolutely a bad thing, as we have no such rule/law in Canada.


Mozencrath  (A 40319)

Apr 18, 2007, 11:22 PM
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Re: [everymansaved] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
espacially on a higher loaded eliptical. I was quite curious to see how the "supervised by a rigger" thing worked down in the states .

I am not 100% positive, but I think that rule only applies to packing tandems. And please don't take this the wrong way, but why would you have a stranger pack such a canopy?

As a packer with thousands of packjobs on every different type of canopy, I can offer you this analogy:

Would you allow a perfect stranger to drive your car with you in the passenger seat? If the person gets into an accident whose fault is it.....Is it their fault for crashing, or is it your fault for letting them drive in the first place!!!

If you were to have a malfunction/bad opening due to a poor packjob, obviously it's the packers fault, but it's also yours for allowing a stranger to be in charge of YOUR equipment.

My advice to fun jumpers who, for whatever reason, do not want to pack their gear:

A. Learn to pack.
B. Learn to enjoy packing.
C. Use a REPUTABLE packer, and tip him VERY well.

I'm sure every DZ has to have at least ONE good sport rig packer. Most DZ's have multiple packers, but only a few are fluent sport rig packers. And out of that bunch, good luck finding one who can pack a highly loaded elliptical, ESPECIALLY if you are sporting the finicky HMA lines.


everymansaved  (C License)

Apr 18, 2007, 11:24 PM
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Re: [Mozencrath] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not in the US, but I'm positive it's on every pack job, not just tandems. And as for the whole idea behind getting packers, that's why I don't. And my wife doesn't usually either, but she had a wrist injury that made packing especially painful.


Mozencrath  (A 40319)

Apr 18, 2007, 11:34 PM
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Re: [Lokhmaty] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are waaaaaaaaaaay tooooooooooo many packers whos concern is just 5 or 6 bucks for pack job and nothing else.

Hmm...I would have to disagree with you completely there. I don't know of any packer who is more concerned with getting $5 than the quality of the packjob. I get $7, BTW. And if it's busy, I'll be needing a ten spot! Wink


Mozencrath  (A 40319)

Apr 18, 2007, 11:47 PM
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Re: [everymansaved] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not in the US, but I'm positive it's on every pack job

Can you find somewhere on USPA's site that it says that? I have never heard that you have to be supervised by a rigger to pack someone elses sport rig....When you pack a tandem or student rig, you are doing work for the DZO and being paid by him. When you pack a sport rig, well thats a personal transaction between the packer and the jumper.


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Apr 19, 2007, 12:06 AM
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Re: [Mozencrath] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

From section 5.3 (L) of the SIM http://www.uspa.org/...7SIM/section5.htm#53
---
L. Main parachute packing

1. The main parachute of a dual assembly may be packed by

a. an FAA rigger

(1) An FAA rigger may supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated (FAR 65.125.a and b).

(2) A non-certificated person may pack a main parachute under the direct supervision of an FAA rigger (FAR 105.43.a).

b. the person who intends to use it on the next jump (FAR 105.43.a)


(This post was edited by IanHarrop on Apr 19, 2007, 12:09 AM)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 19, 2007, 12:40 AM
Post #11 of 75 (2336 views)
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Re: [everymansaved] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
steering lines not stowed
Do you mean the excess? How about setting your brakes and cocking your PC before handle to the packer?

In reply to:
old rubber bands still on the keepers with new ones beside them
Why do you think, that would be a packers responsibility to take a good care about your rig?

Anyway, if you are not satisfied with someone's work just simply do not use it anymore.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Apr 19, 2007, 2:13 AM
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Re: [Mozencrath] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

In all of your last posts in this thread you come across as the worst kind of paid packer:

-arrogant
-greedy
-uninformed about USPA/FAA doctrine


tombuch  (D 8514)

Apr 19, 2007, 3:24 AM
Post #13 of 75 (2297 views)
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Re: [Mozencrath] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm not in the US, but I'm positive it's on every pack job

Can you find somewhere on USPA's site that it says that? I have never heard that you have to be supervised by a rigger to pack someone elses sport rig....When you pack a tandem or student rig, you are doing work for the DZO and being paid by him. When you pack a sport rig, well thats a personal transaction between the packer and the jumper.

Oh boy, are you ever uninformed, and dangerously so! Your profile says you are at Skydive Long Island, and your posts say you have packed "thousands" of rigs. You should know the regulations, and should be under a riggers supervision, no matter how good you are.

The packing of main parachutes is controlled by the federal government under FAR 105.43(a) as follows:
Quote:
...The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use by a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger..."
Quote:

I wrote about that regulation in the June 2002 issue of Parachutists, and the article is reprinted in the S&TA section of The Ranch web site, available as Article 11, "Who can pack a main parachute" at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php.

As for supervision control, I created a log sheet for supervising riggers and packers. It isn't used much, but I have attached it as a Word file.

The elements identified at the beginning of this thread are serious, and can cause a malfunction or make one worse. Every packer should know about those, and the supervising rigger should make sure that packers are watching out for the little things.

Riggers spend a good deal of time in training, and a good training program will emphasis the responsibility we have for the work we do. Too often I hear packers say they just shove the nylon into the container and the owner is responsible for whatever happens. It's rare that a certificated rigger approaches the job that way. While a rigger knows the end user is responsible for how the equipment is used, he/she will also understand that the maintenance of that gear and 'assurance that it is fit for use' are the responsibility of whomever packs it.
Attachments: Rigger Record of Supervision.doc (26.0 KB)


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Apr 19, 2007, 5:21 AM
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Re: [councilman24] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would ask first if you discussed with the packers how you wanted your rig packed? Just as in getting your car serviced, if you do not like the service, you go somewhere else.

I make sure I tell the packers how I want the nose folded, how I want the line stows, etc,. Often I get negative responses, like "I know what I aam doing" or "I don't want to scare you with that slow an opening", to which I say "If you want to get paid, then do it my way" and "Go ahead, try to scare me with a slow opening"

I also discuss my car repairs at length witth my mechanic. That way i do not have to argue with them after the fact about what was or was not done and how much was charged.

TK


stratostar  (Student)

Apr 19, 2007, 5:33 AM
Post #15 of 75 (2250 views)
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Re: [Mozencrath] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Can you find somewhere on USPA's site that it says that?

No that would looking in the wrong place for the information, however USPA will republish FAA doc's.

Quote:
I have never heard that you have to be supervised by a rigger to pack someone elses sport rig....

You need to get out more or PA removed by slotperfect. Better yet learn the regulations you are operating under and respondsable to know and understand before holding yourself out to the public as a professional packer for hire.

Based on your statements I wouldn't let you pack an over night bag let alone a parachute. Your a great example of what is wrong with a lot of paid packers these day's.

(edited to add)
Quote:
"I get $7, BTW. And if it's busy, I'll be needing a ten spot!"

Really, your that special are you and worth 10 bucks, but don't know the reg's for the services you offer. Sounds like PA removed by slotperfect


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Apr 19, 2007, 12:44 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Apr 19, 2007, 5:39 AM
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Re: [tkhayes] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't use packers 97% of the time, but when I was in the hills in Jan. I did talk to the packers there about how I wanted my rig back. That is a great packing operation you guys have going there TK. The gang at Nylon City rock, I like the fact that so many of them are ticket holders too. That is one place I don't mind using a packer at the end of the day. Oh yea and for 6 bucks they did the whole job, set brakes and cocked PC's too.CrazyWink


DougH  (D License)

Apr 19, 2007, 6:58 AM
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Re: [stratostar] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to second that. I was very happy with Nylon City when I went to ZHill this New Years!!

The thing that chapped my ass was that their openings were about 5x better than my packjobs. WinkWinkTongue


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 19, 2007, 7:10 AM
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Re: [councilman24] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't know the DZ. I could probably find out but not sure I want to.Crazy

If you were responsible for the packing floor (supervising rigger), would you want that rigger to call you and let you know about these errors? I bet you would.

Regardless, you absolutely do need to call this DZ and make sure they know. They can always blow off your info, but then it's their problem. Maybe that rigger wants the feedback, maybe he's a jerk and doesn't care. I don't know, but you have the simple job to just let him know.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 19, 2007, 7:12 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In all of your last posts in this thread you come across as the worst kind of paid packer:

-arrogant
-greedy
-uninformed about USPA/FAA doctrine

But the people that will get hurt by those posts are the good folks and staff at Skydive Long Island. It's unfair that someone can read this thread and think "Is that how the operation there is run?" just based on one posters lack of experience (almost 90,000 skydives over 5 years).


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Apr 19, 2007, 8:25 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as SLI,
I jump there and it is not even close to being run that way. There is a certified rigger in the garage as well as one on site at all times. Four at the DZ that I know of. On top of that TI's, AFFI's, SLI's always keeping an eye on things. They are well within the guidelines set forth.
Further, packing classes are given on a consistent basis where I have seen full time packers assisting Instructors with the class. I know because I have given many. I have also been involved with a good amount of brainstorming on proper procedues for student and tandem rigs.
I feel the need to defend, but please dont judge a whole DZ based on one opinion.
Thanks..


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 19, 2007, 8:35 AM
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Re: [Para5-0] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have also been involved with a good amount of brainstorming on proper procedures for student and tandem rigs.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

What a waste of time!
We have a much simpler policy at Pitt Meadows: pack tandems according to the manual published by Strong Enterprises or you don't get paid!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 19, 2007, 8:35 AM
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Re: [councilman24] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sloppy!


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 19, 2007, 8:55 AM
Post #23 of 75 (2131 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

But this was a newbie who very well might not know how they want it packed. You and I do but the gal who posting that packing hurt her fingers and she thought she had packed once in her career doesn't have a clue. Actually this guy knew about most of the issues. How many jumpers these days rarely pack there own? Do you think all of these items were appropriate variations?

BTW, I'm 95% sure this was at Z-hills.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 19, 2007, 9:01 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

Believe me, I'm not shy about safety issues. But there is no way of knowing who packed it. I'm not completely sure where it was. But, as above I'm 95% sure is was Z-hills.

This wasn't about calling any particular packer or dropzone into question. This was to start a general discussion and questions about whether DZ's do have quality control in place.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 19, 2007, 9:13 AM
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Re: [councilman24] Packer quality control? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I recently serviced a rig for a new customer. The jumper has about 100 jumps. As I opened the main I noted several items for comment. Not completely wrong but not the best practices in my opinion and seemingly the kind of things a newer jumper might do.

I started discussing these items with him and he told me the main had been packed by a packer in Florida during his last trip.

The items I noted included:

40" of unstowed line between the bag and the links. Many recommend 18 to 24". Don't think anybody recommends this much. It may have been because the side where the next stow would be didn't have another rubber band athough it could have.

The stows were only about an inch long past the rubber band. Not long enough in my opinion.

The steering lines had migrated to the front of the canopy during cocooning.

The excess brake line was not stowed in the keeper supplied on the riser but flapping loose. (It was the packer that stowed the brakes.)

The routing of the bridle out to the pocket wasn't as secure as it could have been with this rig.

While packing is an art and there are as many variations as there are packers, this seemed to be a lot of questionable issues.

Somewhere, there is a rigger who has responsibility for this pack job. It may be the person who packed it or it may be a supervising rigger. But, do these issues concern anyone else?

I personally don't use a packer. I don't jump where packers are routinely available or in situations such as record attempts or team jumps where my time is needed elsewhere, and I've always trusted myself more than others. When I started jumping and for much of my career packers didn't exist.

Now if the main opens resonably well nobody will ever know about these issues. I expect rarely does a packer pack job get opened other than in the air. But it seems that this packer needs some additional instruction or supervision, or at least some discussion about their choices.

Does any supervising rigger or DZ have any kind of quality control in place? Perhaps spot checking a pack job or more closely watching a pack job every so often?

Or does anybody care?Tongue

Discuss.

Just wondering.Angelic

And no, I don't have a clue who or where this was other than in Florida.

Not good.
Why I don't use packers.
I've seen wide variations in how packers are supervised.
I've seen wide variation in how riggers pack mains.
Not surprising that packers supervised by these same riggers pack in many (creative) ways.

Most packers I've seen pack better than most jumpers (many packers are better on mains than some riggers packing their own mains). But QC is entirely up to the attention of the rigger on hand at the time.

JW


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