Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Safety Features Create Danger

 

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skyninja  (D 31659)

Mar 19, 2007, 12:55 PM
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Safety Features Create Danger Can't Post

"the safer you think you are the more shit you cause.
ban aad's & look after youself, take responsibility for YOUR actions and try not to kill others."
-----------------

I've been reading people respond (as above) to recent incidents/fatalities in skydiving that there is an "airbag culture" that makes people more careless with their skydiving because they feel like they have the cushion of improved safety features (AAD, RSL/skyhook, etc). And then continue on to suggest that the sport would be safer without such devices.

Thoughts/comments?


pilotdave  (D License)

Mar 19, 2007, 1:07 PM
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Re: [skyninja] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

The sport existed before those safety devices, and it wasn't any safer. The sport exists with those safety devices, and it doesn't seem to be any safer either. I do think the sport is safer now than it used to be for those people that don't add the risk of high performance landings. If you don't include high performance landing accidents in the fatality rate, I'll bet it's improved over time... (I haven't looked at any numbers).

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on Mar 19, 2007, 1:08 PM)


B.A.D.D.

Mar 19, 2007, 1:09 PM
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i personally think that aad's, rsl's, and the skyhook systems are great safety features. i have them on all 3 of my rigs, and am looking forward to seeing more safety related advancements to come in the near future. it is also the responsibility of jumpers to realize that these items are additions on safety in genereal and should not be used as primary safety devices, they are backups of the backups. i have come across many jumpers that say "this is my aad, rsl, and skyhook all in one" while staring at their hands. If thats all they feel they need, than I am perfectly fine jumping with them and do not critize them in any way. It's their life to live not mine. i like having options in case I may make a mistake and have a "brain fart" others dont. reguardless, i dont bitch and preach at them as I don't want them bitching and preaching at me. you made the choice to have or not have these extra safety decisions, now you have to live with the consenquences.


DougH  (D License)

Mar 19, 2007, 1:15 PM
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Re: [B.A.D.D.] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

Did the jumpers involved in these collisions have AAD's, RSL's or skyhooks?


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 19, 2007, 1:21 PM
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Re: [skyninja] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

The sport has become safer because of the advent of such devices, however people who would have never been allowed to continue skydiving skydive because of them now. In addition many have developed a "fail-safe" attitude and therefore overlook safety.


Orange1  (B 2638)

Mar 19, 2007, 1:50 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
, however people who would have never been allowed to continue skydiving skydive because of them now.

Can you expand on this? I know of the "i'd never jump without a AAD/RSL/whatever" jumpers but I believe this is the first time I've heard it phrased like this: it sounds as though you're implying instructors pass students they wouldn't have otherwise, or do I misread?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 19, 2007, 2:16 PM
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Re: [Orange1] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

>it sounds as though you're implying instructors pass students they
>wouldn't have otherwise, or do I misread?

Ron had an example of a jumper a while back who just plain did not trust himself, and the AAD gave him enough confidence to continue jumping. Eventually he had to bail out low, his AAD didn't arm, and he died when he pulled the wrong handles. I don't know if the availability of the AAD led his instructors to be more lenient in letting him graduate.


jools  (C 101789)

Mar 19, 2007, 5:01 PM
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So you quoted my post, please allow me to clarify
In this particular incident an AAD would not have really helped, but my point is LOOK AFTER YOUSELF.
I have an AAD on my rig. Do I feel safer because of it? Fuck yes.
Do I take more risks because of it I hope not.
I am a hell of a lot more scared on a fixed object with no reserve that I am in an aircraft without an AAD. Airbag?
I fucked up on a jump and hit power lines, many people suggested suing the DZ and/or the power company, WHAT THE HELL it was my arse in the harness and my hands on on the toggles, so who was to blame?
Dead easy ME!
don't put your faith in some equipment or other people. Have faith in yourself.
If you want to take part in this sport be prepared to die doing it, if you want to ride a fast bike be prepared to die doing it if not take up origami and pray you don't get a nasty paper cut!


Oh and if you don't like it then check the sig line


jools  (C 101789)

Mar 19, 2007, 5:30 PM
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Oh if you want stats please look here.
www.vicnapier.com/riskhomeostasis.htm


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 19, 2007, 7:28 PM
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Re: [pilotdave] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The sport existed before those safety devices, and it wasn't any safer. The sport exists with those safety devices, and it doesn't seem to be any safer either. I do think the sport is safer now than it used to be for those people that don't add the risk of high performance landings. If you don't include high performance landing accidents in the fatality rate, I'll bet it's improved over time... (I haven't looked at any numbers).

Dave

The number of annual fatalities hasn't changed much, but the number of skydivers has increased a lot since pre-AAD days.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Mar 19, 2007, 7:56 PM
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Re: [kallend] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The number of annual fatalities hasn't changed much, but the number of skydivers has increased a lot since pre-AAD days.
And the student fatalities have gone waaay down. Students used to be half of the fatalities, usually low pull, no pull, or no reserve pull after a malfunction. I had many friends who would still be here if they had worn an AAD.


brettski74  (C 3197)

Mar 20, 2007, 12:11 AM
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Re: [skyninja] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"the safer you think you are the more shit you cause.
ban aad's & look after youself, take responsibility for YOUR actions and try not to kill others."

Yes - you need to take responsibility for your own actions in the air, but having additional safety devices to improve your chances of surviving high stress emergency situations makes a hell of a lot more sense than not having them. The ban AADs comment is sensationalist rubbish. The suggestion that people feel safer from wearing AADs and therefore take less safe actions in the sky is about as supportable as the suggestion that the people in these recent incidents didn't clear their airspace properly because they figured they had a reserve parachute if anything went wrong. Maybe we should ban reserves. Why stop there? None of these would have happened if people didn't feel safe jumping out of airplanes. Why not ban parachutes? Or airplanes?


jools  (C 101789)

Mar 20, 2007, 5:42 AM
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Re: [brettski74] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

 The suggestion that people feel safer from wearing AADs and therefore take less safe actions in the sky is about as supportable as the suggestion that the people in these recent incidents didn't clear their airspace properly because they figured they had a reserve parachute if anything went wrong.


Like I said LOOK at this site there IS evidence to support this airbag culture theory.
www.vicnapier.com/riskhomeostasis.htm


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 20, 2007, 8:56 AM
Post #14 of 99 (1907 views)
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Re: [brettski74] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

>The suggestion that people feel safer from wearing AADs and therefore
>take less safe actions in the sky is about as supportable . . .

At least one jumper is dead because he trusted his AAD to keep him alive - and it didn't. So this is quite supportable.

I agree with you that AAD's are good to have. However, I also think you should be willing to jump without them if need be. If you are unwilling to ever jump without an AAD, even on the simplest and most basic of dives - you may be relying on the AAD to deliver more than it can.


aguila  (B 1009)

Mar 20, 2007, 9:14 AM
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Re: [billvon] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ron had an example of a jumper a while back who just plain did not trust himself, and the AAD gave him enough confidence to continue jumping. Eventually he had to bail out low, his AAD didn't arm, and he died when he pulled the wrong handles. I don't know if the availability of the AAD led his instructors to be more lenient in letting him graduate.

Was it an AAD failure? if it was, which AAD was it?


dorbie

Mar 20, 2007, 9:21 AM
Post #16 of 99 (1889 views)
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Re: [billvon] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>The suggestion that people feel safer from wearing AADs and therefore
>take less safe actions in the sky is about as supportable . . .

At least one jumper is dead because he trusted his AAD to keep him alive - and it didn't. So this is quite supportable.

I agree with you that AAD's are good to have. However, I also think you should be willing to jump without them if need be. If you are unwilling to ever jump without an AAD, even on the simplest and most basic of dives - you may be relying on the AAD to deliver more than it can.

Conversely if you're not wearing an AAD on a jump because of a significant risk of it firing what does that say about the decisions being made?

I like to think of the antarctic 4 way that became a solo when I think of AADs. I knew the survivor when I was a whuffo, back then I thought they were all idiots for jumping, now I jump I realize that three of them didn't wear an AAD and the one survivor did.


dorbie

Mar 20, 2007, 9:32 AM
Post #17 of 99 (1876 views)
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Re: [aguila] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Ron had an example of a jumper a while back who just plain did not trust himself, and the AAD gave him enough confidence to continue jumping. Eventually he had to bail out low, his AAD didn't arm, and he died when he pulled the wrong handles. I don't know if the availability of the AAD led his instructors to be more lenient in letting him graduate.

Was it an AAD failure? if it was, which AAD was it?

The key phrase is "didn't arm", the AAD did not attain sufficient altitude during the climb to arm prior to the bailout. This would have been within the designed operating parameters for the AAD, not a failure.


brettski74  (C 3197)

Mar 20, 2007, 9:37 AM
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In reply to:
At least one jumper is dead because he trusted his AAD to keep him alive - and it didn't. So this is quite supportable.

I agree with you that AAD's are good to have. However, I also think you should be willing to jump without them if need be. If you are unwilling to ever jump without an AAD, even on the simplest and most basic of dives - you may be relying on the AAD to deliver more than it can.

Maybe I should rephrase that. There have also been incidents where AADs have fired and either created a dangerous situation and/or fatality, but suggesting that AADs should be banned because they create dangerous situations is a ridiculous statement. I believe that the evidence shows that they do more to save lives than endanger them. Like everything we use, however, they are devices designed for a purpose and with certain limitations and should be used accordingly. Nobody should be relying on them to save their life.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 20, 2007, 9:38 AM
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Re: [aguila] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

>Was it an AAD failure? if it was, which AAD was it?

No. He bailed out before it reached arming altitude. If he had not put that AAD on his rig, he would be alive today.


dorbie

Mar 20, 2007, 9:43 AM
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In reply to:
>Was it an AAD failure? if it was, which AAD was it?

No. He bailed out before it reached arming altitude. If he had not put that AAD on his rig, he would be alive today.

How would that have helped him pull the right handle?


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 20, 2007, 9:53 AM
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Re: [jools] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

 The suggestion that people feel safer from wearing AADs and therefore take less safe actions in the sky is about as supportable as the suggestion that the people in these recent incidents didn't clear their airspace properly because they figured they had a reserve parachute if anything went wrong.


Like I said LOOK at this site there IS evidence to support this airbag culture theory.

In reply to:

It's a complex question that doesn't HAVE a simple 'covers all' answer.

I've been jumping a while now, and have never had or needed an RSL or an ADD.

I do understand their positive benefits, but as far as an RSL... Don't use it because I do a lot of demos and in many of the acts we do I wouldn't want my 'last bullet' to open possibly CAUSING a wrap.

I train my EP's accordingly.

Never had an AAD because in part for the same reason, (demo contingencies) and another is cost... if someone GAVE me a Cypress I'd install it and just not turn it on for demos, but with 3 kids about to enter college...Shocked

NOT having these 'air bags' is something (in MY case) that keeps me possibly more aware and safe as far as the limits I'm willing push.

I do have to wonder about the people that absolutely WILL NOT JUMP without an AAD though. What was once considered 'training wheels' is now standard and necessary survival equipment.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Mar 20, 2007, 9:55 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 20, 2007, 9:57 AM
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Re: [dorbie] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

>How would that have helped him pull the right handle?

?? It would not have. He told several people that he would not jump if he did not have an AAD, because he did not trust himself under pressure. The AAD enabled an incompetent skydiver to get enough false confidence to take to the sky - and die when he could not perform the most basic emergency procedures. If he had not had the AAD, he would not have jumped, and would be alive today.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Mar 20, 2007, 10:03 AM
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Re: [billvon] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Bill,
Where could I get the details concerning this incident? Is there a thread in the incidents Forum I could read?

I am most curious to learn more info...
-


brettski74  (C 3197)

Mar 20, 2007, 10:06 AM
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In reply to:
Like I said LOOK at this site there IS evidence to support this airbag culture theory.
http://www.vicnapier.com/riskhomeostasis.htm

Yes - there is research to support the airbag culture theory you're referring to, but that's a long way from supporting the idea of banning AADs.

Earlier cars were more prone to various types of accidents due to inferior brakes, suspension, no airbags, etc. Are you suggesting that we should also revert to 1950s car technology so that people start dying in lower speed traffic accidents, instead?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 20, 2007, 10:12 AM
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Re: [AFFI] Safety Features Create Danger [In reply to] Can't Post

>Where could I get the details concerning this incident?

From a 2004 post from Ron:

--------------------------------------------------------
However I have a buddy that is dead due to this.

Lets pop into the patented "wayback machine"

Cessna 182's engine dies at around 1200 feet. The pilot tells everyone to get out except the observer sitting in the student seat.

The first guy out pulls his main...It opens LOW. The pilot a triple threat (Pilot, skydiver, rigger) tells my buddy to pull his reserve.

He climbs out and goes. He pulls his *cutaway* handle. He realizes his mistake and pulls his MAIN...Well his RSL starts to open the reserve and he hits the ground.

The third person pulls the silver and is fine.

The pilot is doing his E-checklist and sees that the observer turned the fuel valve off.

It was this lesson that I learned that a CYPRES does not arm till 1500 feet.

So, if you are in a plane lower than you would do a hop n pop from....Go out on silver.

That means hand on the handle and jump out the door.

When clear pull it.

It is an emergency situation...It is better to get a repack than get killed.

Also...Do low hop n pops. Do exits from 2500 feet. you never know what you will do when the time comes...And if you are an otter baby, you will most likley never have left a plane that low.
------------------------------


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