Cross braced canopies do have quite a bit of flare power but if you are using them at lower loadings like 1.7 then you are not really gaining the effectiveness of the cross bracing. These canopies are fun but you have to realize that they do come with baggage. It's like dating strippers. It is fun at first but then the baggage gets in the way and it becomes to much work unless you are seriously commited to the relationship. Even then you are the one doing all the work.
With CB canopies it is the same deal. The canopy is going to behave how it was designed to do so. You will be forced to make changes in your style and the way you fly your canopy or it will kill you.
Not so long ago you were asking about 180 degree turns and what not. I would suggest that you really evaluate why you are interested in CB canopies and honestly ask yourself if you are ready for one.
You will become a much better swooper if you spend the money on coaching with your current crossfire canopy. If you are comfortable with your canopy now then learn new aspects to it like rear riser flight and landings. Then try some freestyle moves on for size. That is usually an eye opener.
Best of luck dude, and remember that CB canopies are cool but they will seriously hurt you or kill you if you fuck up.
I found the Drouge was to hard to pull in when I attach it to the RDS hahahahaaaaaa
Actually I'm selling my JVX. I have lost some weight and I am looking for a higher loading this season, so I am looking to purchase a smaller all sail. Don't get me wrong the canopy is great! and then power on the rears is amazing, but I am just looking for a little higher loading this season. So if you know some one who wants a JVX right now and doesn't want to wait send em my direction it is an 89 with 10 jumps on it.
Thanks for the compliment too. Best of luck with your canopy and I hope you get more jumps on it brotha. Please be carefull out there.
No CB canopy is really going to want to plane out on it's own. The closest you can get to that would be an FX. I had an FX104 for a long time. It was a good little canopy.
The problem with purchasing larger CB canopies is that they are harder to resale. You may want to think about just increaseing the wingloading on your xfire or getting a smaller xfire. The xfire should hold up and perform ok up to about 1.9 or so. That would give you a little better of an idea of what to expect when and if you decide to go CB. Many canopies have vastly different flight characterists at higher loadings. Try slapping on some weight. I think you might be surprised at what your current canopy will do.
i guess the xaos 21 is more for a begginer then the 27
First of all, there is NO SUCH THING as a "beginner" cross-braced canopy. Seriously. Nobody has any business whatsoever jumping one with under 1000 jumps in my very-experienced opinion. No amount of reading this forum (or Jim's, registered trademark, do not copy) is going to prepare you to own a crossbraced canopy. What WILL prepare you for one is a ton of jumps on slightly-less-agressive, non-braced canopies. What I mean by a ton of jumps is as many jumps as you have listed TOTAL in your profile on one heavilly-loaded 9-cell. You do not have a lot of jumps, brother.
Back in 2001, myself and my two teammates (Bryan Harrell from Elsinore and Eric Butts from Hawaii) competed professionally with great success under nine-cells. The worst of us finished 13th overall in the nation that year.
Crossbraced canopies do not make great AFF canopies, video canopies, nor general RW canopies. They require a ton of attention, don't open nearly as good as their nine-cell counterparts (which also swoop great). A crossbraced canopy is not "required equipment" to hang out with the cool kids (who can't swoop to save their asses) in the freefly teamroom at most dropzones.
I have said this before; possibly in this thread: if you can't wring every single ounce of performance out of what is currently over your head then you DO NOT need a new canopy.
Parachutes are fucking EXPENSIVE nowadays. Buy what you can handle and afford and then jump it until you have worn it out or explored every limit of it's capabilities. I am fascinated how fast people "progress" these days. You know what? I have not had a new canopy in four years. Hell, my current Velo is was built in 1999! Just because you can afford a new three thousand dollar JVX does not mean you ought to buy one five months after you jump your first Crossfire.
I don't mean to be callous, but you know what? It needs to be said. Over and over again, apparently.
I can say this...my crossfire2 119 at around 1.8-1.9 does very well...I like it I fly the bejesus out of it, and most likely am looking for a second one to put in my other rig for this season...
I find that I can a get back from god knows where...can land that shit easily in many conditions, on rears fully, can carve it a strong ass ninety...shit I think it is a great canopy period the end...
Airborne...I have said this before and I will say it again why rush...that canopy at that loading will cause a lot of fun to occur if you chillax and really learn it.... not just learn the basics on it and then move on...
I will be jumping my 119 crossfire (with the occasional FX jump) for quite some time...and by quite sometime means that when the canopy wears out I will stop jumping it... thats how much I love it.... (plus the lady has told me that she needs me around to help pay the upcoming mortgage)
so if you want to ignore us all once again and rush something that you can spend the rest of your life doing...feel free...but remember that we told you this stuff as you are counting back from ten....
2nd i love how I ask a question and people say stupid comments like not listening to us and remember that when your counting back from 10.
DHarma1975 - who is us? you been in the sport as long as me. and what kind of comment is count to 10 backwards. quite a cheap shot.
i wish people would stop acting like that everytime someone asks a question. its stupid.
i would love to hear some of the comments i have heard in the past in person.
i havent ignored anyones advice thats why i have a crossfire1 119 and a crossfire2 139 at my disposal to jump.
I do like the 1000 jump mark for crossbraced canopys.
which i will exceed this year.
I have flown the fx and to me it was a easy canopy to fly. the katana on the other hand i didnt like at all.
i understand from the xaos 21 would be a good entry level crossbraced. they make it up to 135 and of course any size one wants. It is a favorite of video people.
loading a xaos 21 in the 1.7 range wouldnt be too radical at all is what i flew the fx at. I understand you dont get the whole bennifit of the crossbraced with a lighter wing loading.
ok but if one buys the biggest xaos 21 and downsizes from there i would say thats a safe progression. or at least sensible.
my plans are months and months away i think it wise to do research now. it took me a year to get my crossfire of research and demo's.
Dharma1976 why dont you get an xaos?? if you want to stick with your crossfire fine we are not all the same. i know you could handle a xaos.
CHuck i wouldnt worry about being callous dont think your being ignored i listen to everything you have said. and all is well.
I got this info from a very nice thread about the its from a pa guy.
Because... I'm on vacation and only took a few moments away from my lovely wife and beautiful 7 month old Haley... (i.e. shut up and jump you little whiney-ass! Get off the internet and experience skydiving in real time. Only kidding...)
Ok... let's see if I can give you some of the differences between the 21 and 27 Xaos canopies...
let me first cut and paste from the previous posts...
Quote Differences in pack volume? Differences in price? Opening characteristics? Turn rate? Riser pressure? (front or rear?) Toggle pressure? Dive Rate?
Differences in pack volume?
Add about ~15-20% larger for the 27... (this is from experience... I'm at home and don't have specific volume numbers here.) There are more pieces sewn together in the cross braced canopies. Take a seven cell standard canopy, for example a Raven reserve, there are 32 separate pieces of fabric. The Xaos 27 consists of 65 parts being joined (the 21 has 51 pieces). This translates into more fabric (more pack volume) than a comparable sized Xaos 21.
Both canopies have virtually the same planform. The 27 uses more pieces to stiffen the airfoil, (more ribs, surfaces and crossbraces).
Differences in price?
The Xaos 21 has a retail price of $2198.00. The Xaos 27 retail price is $2498.00. These prices are for standard sizes. Any other size is available, (yes we have built a 69.5 square foot canopy on request... notice the warning label on that canopy lists a maximum weight of 180 lbs, 10ozs.) Custom sizing costs you an extra $20. Custom colors are no extra charge. Stainless grommets and links are optional...$40 more. I discourage the stainless. The grommets are heavier and cause the canopy to open quicker. (Yes, Dave Brownell was correct.) Our Wrap-It Links (soft links) are included with all canopies.
The Xaos canopies are the best opening crossbraced canopies available, period. I know because I've jumped them all. I'm getting older and openings are VERY important to me. This was the reason we started the Xaos project. The day the VX was released was the very same day the Xaos Project began. The VX release happened in our backyard at the Precision plant. We objected, but our newly hired marketing arm won out. (I have 1200+ Xaos21 jumps, 500+ Xaos27 jumps, 600+ FX jumps, 200+ VX jumps and, yes, 400+ Velocity jumps.)
My favorite? Look at the numbers above. I jump the Xaos 21 in my primary rig (attached to my Skyflyer!).
No other crossbraced canopy opens as comfortably as the Xaos 21. Consistently. Next best is the Xaos27. The greater number of openings, combined with smaller chambers, tend to fill a bit quicker and allow the canopy to hunt a bit more on opening. That said, the Xaos27 is making many camera flyers very happy everyday... Ask them!
Geez... no idea, honestly. I personally don't care how fast it turns. Not really a consideration for what these canopies are designed to do. I'm not sure if one turns faster than another. I typically jump a slightly smaller 27, so at slightly higher loading it seems to turn faster. But I'm not sure about the difference at the same loading. Sorry. Last time I thought of "turn rate" was reading an ad for the Para-Commander stating a 360 degree turn in 2.5 seconds or something like that. I think if you want to do quick spirals, a regular construction higher aspect ratio canopy will turn faster. (Try a Nitron or Stiletto if that's your cup of tea.) But that's not really what these canopies are about.
Riser pressure? (front or rear?)
Now there's an important consideration! These are Pilot's canopies and it is very important to talk about the control inputs and forces.
The Xaos21 is designed to be very easy to fly well (even for a canopy novice like myself!). We have shifted the center of loading back a bit on this canopy to specifically lighten the front riser pressure. The result is a canopy that is easier to drive in the riser dive. At my age, eyesight is waning, reaction time is slower, etc. This canopy is very smoothly transitioned from full flight to deep dive. This way, a person can start a dive very high, allowing more time to make adjustments and continue to adjust all the way to the recovery and pull out.
This was the critical adjustment made to crossbraced canopies. The Xaos21 is the easiest flying crossbraced canopy. Welcome crossbrace to mainstream skydiving!
Rear riser pressures on the 21 are still very light... i.e. very easy canopy to rear riser land.
The 27... This canopy is the competitors' canopy (but why does everyday Joe-Skydiver love it so much?!)
Time out... gotta run. Time to entertain the Mrs... hope you understand!
May be it was "just me" but the Xaos 27 cell I had did not have very good opennings. At first the end cells would inflate and fly together(Soo much fun). After quite a few of those opennings I finally got it to open consistently without doing that, however it would always open with a wicked fast 360° to one side or the other depending on which side open last. In my humble opinion, I loved the canopy once open but with its consistent inconsistent opennings I would rather jump my VX. Kirk
2nd i love how I ask a question and people say stupid comments like not listening to us and remember that when your counting back from 10.
In reply to:
I know how you feel. I got bashed all the time until I removed my profile. So why can't someone that is totaly focused on canopy flight, does mental rehersales of flight path and technique on every jump before bording the plane, that takes all courses and every bit of coaching that is avaliable to them, but has only 900 jumps fly a HP X-braced wing? I don't understand why so much enphesis is put on the "Total" jump numbers.
What I do agree with, and also believe you MUST have whether your jump numbers are 500 or 5000 is : -Total comitment to Canopy Flight -Have a plan before bording the plane -Be comitited to many Canopy Flight only Jumps, don't try and mix fun jumps with leaning a new canopy -Have a mentor or coach watch you along the way -Take advise seriously -Take a canopy course (Recomend Brian Germains Hightly) -1st hand knowledge of what a bad landing / misjudgment can do to you. Nothing hit's home more then standing there beside your friend waiting for the ambulance, wondering if he is going to live or die. Once you see this, you truely understand how serious this game is!!
All that being said, I agree with the others that you don't need a X-braced yet. Mostly because your not intending on loading it. What's the point? Really they don't do anything until you get past the 2.0 and even then you want to be closer to 2.2 (if you take Germains course he will teach you the technical aspects of canopys to learn why this is true)
I went from a Cobalt 95 to a Velo 96 and was majorly disappointed. The Velo felt Huge! and after about 100 jumps on the Velo I got an 88 Xaos-21 and love it.
The last thing I thought I would add, your X-fire is a kick ass canopy. I have been out swooped many times by X-fires and X-fire 2's. In my opinion they are a X-braced canopy without the X-braces. Really you can load them quite a bit, and they just get faster and faster.
does the xaos 27 auto recover - NO it is a negative recovery arc, as are all modern X-braced canopys. (+ Recovery arc = recovers on its own and creats lift after a turn, Neutral Recovery arc = Recovers to level flight after a turn, - Recovery arc = stays in a dive after a turn)
how does it open? Great
how is the bottom end of the flare? Powerfull
is the front riser high or low? Depends on Wing Loading. At 1.7 you will be doing chin-ups for sure. At 2.2 it is quite managible
does it dive harder then a crossfire but less then a velocity? Again Wing Loading is the #1 variable. It has the potential to dive just as long and fast as a Velocity.
is it a twitchy like the vx at wing loading 1.7 It basicly is a VX. Made from the VX's original designer (Precision) with definit modifications, and newer upgrades
how does the flare finish? Strong - lots of lift
how easy is it to land straight in. easy enough, but what's the point. If your not doing 270's your really only flying it a 1/4 throttle. ( see my analogy at the end)
how user freindly is it compared to other cross braced. It has great openings which means you can take it termial without a problem, other then that it needs to be taken seriously like any other X-braced wing. If you have a mal, line twist, poped toggle, your in for a Wild Ride!
i heard the 21 is sweet but the 27 offers more flare power. This is True. 27 has more bottem end power.
All in all X-braced canopys are alot like Super Sport Bikes, amazing technical wonders, refined and refined again and again by the most experienced riders (pilots) in races (competitions) that are won and lost by 1000's of a second. The average rider will never even come close to using the bike to 1/2 of its potential. Many buy the latest greatest bike to look cool parked by the donut shop on a friday night. Most of these guys can't ride worth a crap and the few skilled riders look over thinking 'what a waist of a beautiful machine'. They were never made to go slow and "tour" around, they were made to race and go fast, very fast.
my plans are months and months away i think it wise to do research now. it took me a year to get my crossfire of research and demo's
Fuck your plans. You want a plan? Jump what you have, and learn to fly a fast, fun parachute (your ceossfire). You spent enough time getting your hands on one, now just fly the thing, and stop thinking about other canopies.
Jump the x-fire until your good at it. When you can land it upwind and downwind, straight in or with a swoop, and you always end up where you want to be, and setting down softly. Thats every jump. When you can do that 200 or 300 times in a row, THEN, see what out there, and demo some stuff.
Your skills and perceptions at that tiem will be far different than they are now. Add to that any new canopies or line trims that will come out between nwo and then, and you can see how much of your time you're wasting.
Spend it jumping. The money that you can lose on canopies? Spend that jumping as well.
I had an account deleted it also becuase of the BS that is spewed here. I do not mean the advice or knowledge, I am talking about people being rude, hypocritical, and stopming on anyone with a question. The info mostly given is 99% great. Some of you need to ease up on people here you dont know them, most of the time, and if you did you wouldn't say some of the insulting things you say.
That said - Airborne the Xaos 21 is a good choice for your entry into crossbraced, everything else is too much. Maybee the neos but i think the xaos 21 is an easier canopy to manage.
I say wait till you get better with your crossfire and that bright orange one. lol I know you and have seen you swoop and your are doing very well. Your very comfortable on the crossfire and you land it well. The xaos 21 isnt a crossfire but it isnt a velo either. i would say right now you can fly one no problem but you would do better to improve on your crossfire and the smaller one the orange one.
Under loading it isnt a problem and at 1.7-1.8 your not under loading but your not going to get the performance out of it. Yes laoded 1.8 it will out swoop your crossfire.
So your doing good, I know your safe, dont change anything just get better. Your goal by the end of the year a xaos 21 is very possible.
By the way I know Airborne a bit. He is a good dude, he will do anything for ya and actually you get him drinking and he is one crazy funny mo-fo, he is the funniest craziest asses at his dz. Partying with him is nuts. He is also not a big mouth but a very safe, humble, and good flyer. He is great on the medical end and he is there when some gets hurt. The guy is so smart he should have been a Doctor ( I thought he was ) He is a family guy, former Airborne Ranger danger recon jumpmaster or something of the sort, and he is a former Black Belt Tournament fighter. He has some neck disease ( which will interfere with his jumping from time to time ) so he doesnt do any of the martial art stuff anymore he says.
The one thing I can say is he is a Artist his videos and editing rock. I have never seen anyone shoot a and edit a video like he does. The style and creativity of his vids are great. He makes dvd's of his work and he gives them out.
Like I said I know him a bit and can vouch for his character. You do not really know who people are on here. Best to treat everyone with respect. If you swoop into the ground you would be lucky to have Airborne there until ems arrives.
>Some of us dont have the jump numbers but are >very inteligent and have a great capacity to learn and understand. >jump numbers isnt IQ.
Right. And IQ isn't skill.
>you need to put your self into the perspective of a 500 jumper >today compared where you were at at 500 jumps.
And I think you need to realize that we remember what it was like to have 500 jumps. You don't know what it's like to have 5000. That gives us a bit of an edge. Doesn't mean that people with 500 jumps are idiots; far from it! A friend of mine with 300 jumps got invited on the 2002 bigway record. But she got on that jump not by claiming she was smart and skilled, and the old farts were all being overcautious and forgetful - she learned from those same people you are dissing and worked her ass off.
>when you had 500 jumps was anyone swooping or sitflying.
When I had 500 jumps they were. They called it freak flying back then; Roger Nelson was big into it. (Yet some freeflyers still think they "invented" it!) People were swooping their Fandangos (which was a crossbraced canopy too BTW) and breaking themselves just like they are today - but most fatalities were not due to landing accidents because most people were following a more cautious progression.
>you old timers remeber the sport has advanced way beyond when you started.
The sport has definitely advanced, but the reason we ARE old-timers in this sport is that we know that some things have NOT changed - the ground is just as hard and will kill you just as dead when you screw up. If you get a canopy that's beyond your skills, the "magic of modern skydiving" will not save you. You can end up as dead as the guy at our DZ who hooked himself in under his Blue Track in 1991.