Forums: Skydiving: Instructors:
How much different type of instructors should earns?

 

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camamel  (D 333)

Mar 9, 2007, 1:16 PM
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How much different type of instructors should earns? Can't Post

As a DZO my self I know what I will do next summer with my instructors. But what you guys think is fare?
What do you already earn?
What do you want?
And why?

Thanks
Richard


oosskis  (D 1012)

Mar 22, 2007, 3:51 PM
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Re: [camamel] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

AFFI's are the most qualified, most experienced and most capable instructors out there, so they should get paid the most. That is never the case, but that's how it should be.
TI's should get paid a competitive wage according to local industry standards and supply and demand.
Packers should get $10 a tandem pack job - 2 lives depend on it and they should take the time.
$7 a student rig.
sport rigs are local rates, depending on supply and demand and geographic location. (Cost of living, etc.)


psychoswooper  (D License)

Mar 22, 2007, 8:34 PM
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In reply to:
AFFI's are the most qualified, most experienced and most capable instructors out there, so they should get paid the most. That is never the case, but that's how it should be.

Never say never....Aff I's are the highest (per jump) paid people on our DZ. $40 per jump. Very experienced tandem packers $12 & $13/per.


oosskis  (D 1012)

Mar 22, 2007, 10:12 PM
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Re: [psychoswooper] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

Compared on an hourly rate, the AFFI never makes as much as a TI. A TI can make 4 jumps in the time it takes to train one level of AFF.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 26, 2007, 9:46 AM
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Re: [oosskis] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
AFFI's are the most qualified, most experienced and most capable instructors out there,

I'll absolutly disagree with that statement.


oosskis  (D 1012)

Mar 26, 2007, 10:44 AM
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Thanks for backing up your argument with such valid reasoning, JP. You've got me convinced. Unsure


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Mar 26, 2007, 11:43 AM
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Re: [oosskis] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
AFFI's are the most qualified, most experienced and most capable instructors out there,

Anyone with a C license (200 jumps) and 6 hours of freefall time can take an AFF course.

I don't know of any Tandem Gear manufacturers that give ratings to guys with 200 jumps.Crazy


oosskis  (D 1012)

Mar 26, 2007, 12:20 PM
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I don't know how you are going to get 6 hours of freefall time with 200 jumps... Unless you start adding tunnel time to your freefall time, which is technically wrong, because you are not in freefall. You'd be hard pressed to get 1 hour for every 60 jumps... So that's at least 360. I have yet to meet an AFFI that would have passed the course with 360 jumps... If they did the tunnel time to do it in that time then they have the skill - more skill than it takes to take out tandems.


camamel  (D 333)

Mar 26, 2007, 1:04 PM
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Re: [oosskis] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

Lets talk about AFFI's and TI's. This is two complete different kind of job. In the first case it is closer to formation skydiving because you have to move in 3D. To stay alert it is very nice ( you also have to stay alert to do it!!!), at the opening time you are with your solo rig so you can enjoy the ride back to earth with your main canopy.The down side is: Even with the best team work it will be hard to do 10 or 12 quality jumps a day and after couples years you'll eventually need a new main.
With the TI's on the other side it look like they don't need that much of formation skydiving experience because they don't play in 3D. WRONG. What team exit (formation skydiving or freefly) teach you is the dynamic of the wind out of the door. In tandem exit and opening are the two most critical part of every jump. Yes it is easy with experience to do 12 jumps a day and during all those jumps your own rig stay in your locker.The down side is: On opening the TI stay with his custommer when an emergency happen (is also a big + the rest of the time).
If we compare a good AFFI and a good TI I think both should be hi skills skydivers, no difference in my mind.
But I have to agree with you on one point.
AFF course is a lot harder to pass than the TI course.
I am a TIE since 93 and I think 500 jumps and 3 years in sport should be at least 1000 jumps and 4 years. Having only 5 jumps to evaluate new instructors is not enough. Personnaly, since couples years, I had some 4 way jumps.
About the pay they should paid equal.

Richard


AFFI  (D 25538)

Mar 26, 2007, 7:01 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
AFFI's are the most qualified, most experienced and most capable instructors out there,

I'll absolutly disagree with that statement.


Some are pretty good though...

Some totally suck...

Like anything in life I guess..
-


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Mar 26, 2007, 7:42 PM
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Re: [oosskis] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know how you are going to get 6 hours of freefall time with 200 jumps... Unless you start adding tunnel time to your freefall time, which is technically wrong, because you are not in freefall. You'd be hard pressed to get 1 hour for every 60 jumps... So that's at least 360. I have yet to meet an AFFI that would have passed the course with 360 jumps... If they did the tunnel time to do it in that time then they have the skill - more skill than it takes to take out tandems.

Even with tons of tunnel time, no one with 360 jumps is the "most qualified, most experienced and most capable" instructor. They might have great freefall skills, but there's more to it when you're dealing with "4 arms, 4 legs, 5 handles, and a pilot chute in tow".

edit to add: I think TIs should make more than AFFIs because in the end if everything goes to shit, the AFF guy can just let go. TIs can't.


(This post was edited by NSEMN8R on Mar 26, 2007, 8:02 PM)


Shark  (D 24499)

Mar 26, 2007, 10:37 PM
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Re: [NSEMN8R] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't know how you are going to get 6 hours of freefall time with 200 jumps... Unless you start adding tunnel time to your freefall time, which is technically wrong, because you are not in freefall. You'd be hard pressed to get 1 hour for every 60 jumps... So that's at least 360. I have yet to meet an AFFI that would have passed the course with 360 jumps... If they did the tunnel time to do it in that time then they have the skill - more skill than it takes to take out tandems.

Even with tons of tunnel time, no one with 360 jumps is the "most qualified, most experienced and most capable" instructor. They might have great freefall skills, but there's more to it when you're dealing with "4 arms, 4 legs, 5 handles, and a pilot chute in tow".

edit to add: I think TIs should make more than AFFIs because in the end if everything goes to shit, the AFF guy can just let go. TIs can't.

TIs do earn more as they are the ones most likely to be tipped. As far as your AFFI statement goes, a newly minted AFFI will have tough time getting hired, especially at larger DZs. Jump numbers do count. Having an AFFI with ~360 jumps will not get you a job, nor will a TI with around 500 jumps. Well, at least not at any DZ here in SoCal....

Also, please do not disrespect the AFFI skills.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Mar 27, 2007, 6:43 AM
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Re: [Shark] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

No disrespect meant, but the idea that people with 360 jumps and a bunch of tunnel time have "- more skill than it takes to take out tandems" is bullshit.

They may be a fine AFFI, but they're still not qualified to do tandems.


jheadley  (D 28710)

Mar 27, 2007, 6:46 AM
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Re: [NSEMN8R] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No disrespect meant, but the idea that people with 360 jumps and a bunch of tunnel time have "- more skill than it takes to take out tandems" is bullshit.

They may be a fine AFFI, but they're still not qualified to do tandems.

What about the guys who do several hundred hop and pops to get their tandem rating?


AFFI  (D 25538)

Mar 27, 2007, 7:58 AM
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Re: [NSEMN8R] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No disrespect meant, but the idea that people with 360 jumps and a bunch of tunnel time have "- more skill than it takes to take out tandems" is bullshit.

They may be a fine AFFI, but they're still not qualified to do tandems.

What????

I have been trying to stay out of this argument, this thread is beginning to make about as much sense as a circumsized dog...

Yeah, right, whatever... They are just handing out AFF ratings these days anyway eh?
-


livendive  (D 21415)

Mar 27, 2007, 9:00 AM
Post #16 of 77 (2766 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No disrespect meant, but the idea that people with 360 jumps and a bunch of tunnel time have "- more skill than it takes to take out tandems" is bullshit.

They may be a fine AFFI, but they're still not qualified to do tandems.

I think such distinctions are best made by people who do both. For me, AFF is more mentally tiring. Tandems are more physically tiring. I was ready for a tandem rating long before I was ready for an AFF rating, and I think anyone who has the ability and maturity to do proper AFF could also be a good TI (physical demands being noted). At the end of a full day, either will have me ready for a beer, a sammich, and a nap. Ideally, a full day of AFF and a full day of tandems would pay about the same, but the economics are such that parity between the paychecks will rarely, if ever, be achieved.

Blues,
Dave


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Mar 27, 2007, 10:58 AM
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Re: How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the pass rate for the AFF course? (Of course it used to be a lot harder with a much lower pass rate)

What s the pass rate for the TI course?

Every AFFI I have seen could be a TI.

Not every TI I have seen could be an AFFI.

(I have seen people fail the AFF course several times, the old course, give up and just go get their tandem rating.)

AFFI's have to actually teach.

Some TI's do teach, but most simply hook up and go.

With AFF, the student can actually get away from the AFFI and the AFFI must be able to fly well enough to catch them again, regardless. If they cannot, they should not be an AFFI.

With tandems, where are they going to go? A TI does not need to flying skills to catch a flaing student.

For AFF exits, the AFFI has to fly their body and control the student.

For tandem exits, the TI just arches and you are good.

Being an AFFI requires much more skill, takes more time for each jump, and takes more mental effort than being a TI.

An AFFI should definitely earn more than a TI per jump.

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Mar 27, 2007, 11:00 AM)


AFFI  (D 25538)

Mar 27, 2007, 11:35 AM
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Once again, Derek has put into words what I could not

Well put...


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 27, 2007, 1:46 PM
Post #19 of 77 (2726 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
AFFI's have to actually teach.

Not lately.

The AFFI rating has become so easy to obtain, and DZ's have been so willing to fire volumes of jumpers through a cookie cutter course that the overall skill of an "A" licenced jumper is pitiful.

Does 400 jumps and 18 months in the sport make an AFF instructor?
How about when 90% of said jumps are 4 way, or Freefly?
What about when said instructor rarely packs for themselves and has next to no knowledge of the gear they jump?
When they jump a canopy they are scared of, and yell at people for "getting to close to them under canopy".
When they can be heard bitching about bad spots all day but never check it themselves?
When they have already been seen charging coach students $50 a jumps for their "expertise".
Most importantly what kind of students does that person turn out?

In the current system they MAY be qualified to supervise someone through an AFF lever, but in NO WAY are they competent enough to train and produce a "Skydiver".


nbblood  (D 26355)

Mar 27, 2007, 2:11 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
AFFI's have to actually teach.

Not lately.

The AFFI rating has become so easy to obtain, and DZ's have been so willing to fire volumes of jumpers through a cookie cutter course that the overall skill of an "A" licenced jumper is pitiful.

Does 400 jumps and 18 months in the sport make an AFF instructor?
How about when 90% of said jumps are 4 way, or Freefly?
What about when said instructor rarely packs for themselves and has next to no knowledge of the gear they jump?
When they jump a canopy they are scared of, and yell at people for "getting to close to them under canopy".
When they can be heard bitching about bad spots all day but never check it themselves?
When they have already been seen charging coach students $50 a jumps for their "expertise".
Most importantly what kind of students does that person turn out?

In the current system they MAY be qualified to supervise someone through an AFF lever, but in NO WAY are they competent enough to train and produce a "Skydiver".

Wow! All of a sudden I feel really, really good about our DZs student training program and what we provide the student. I also feel really lucky to be working with the quality instructors I get the chance to work with and learn from. I simply haven't seen these things at our DZ. Not saying at all that this doesn't exist elsewhere, just glad to be part of the staff at my particular DZ with, what I think is, an exceptional student training program.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 27, 2007, 2:17 PM
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Re: [nbblood] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

And that is a testiment to your owners and the structure of your school.

Unfortunately the AFF rating certifies someone to be an instructor on their own. Perhaps an improvement would be a requirement to be an "intern" with a profesional school, but unlike doctors or nurses there is no requirement at an AFFI to show proficiency, skill or contined education post rating course graduation.


nbblood  (D 26355)

Mar 27, 2007, 2:29 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunately the AFF rating certifies someone to be an instructor on their own. Perhaps an improvement would be a requirement to be an "intern" with a profesional school, but unlike doctors or nurses there is no requirement at an AFFI to show proficiency, skill or contined education post rating course graduation.

That is a very interesting concept and I like it. This kind of concept has helped me out a lot, both as a TI and an AFFI. I'm still relatively new to both, but fortunately at my DZ there is a ton of experience and people that are willing to help out. There is no formal "internship". However, I was "checked out" on training jumps for both AFF and Tandem prior to taking paying students. I always feel like there's somebody watching over my shoulder, watching my performance. I don't mean this in a bad way, it's a really good thing. I've received invaluable advice in both disciplines from instructors watching and evaluating my methods and techniques and giving me advice to try this or that. It has really helped develop me as an instructor. I like the idea of an internship. Of course, the other part of that is that the "intern" has got to be willing to accept constructive criticism to develop.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Mar 27, 2007, 4:51 PM
Post #23 of 77 (2689 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunately the AFF rating certifies someone to be an instructor on their own. Perhaps an improvement would be a requirement to be an "intern" with a profesional school, but unlike doctors or nurses there is no requirement at an AFFI to show proficiency, skill or contined education post rating course graduation.

Do some reading on the Aussie system - new instructors are on probation under the supervision of a Chief Instructor for 6 months, and also have some continuing education requirements.

http://www.apf.asn.au for more.


peckerhead

Mar 27, 2007, 9:32 PM
Post #24 of 77 (2660 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
AFFI's are the most qualified, most experienced and most capable instructors out there,

I'll absolutly disagree with that statement.

I absolutely agree with JP (and that is rare)

I have been teaching people to skydive for over 20 years and I do not have a tandem or AFF rating. I have trained many jumpers who later went on to get AFF and tandem ratings.

Static line/ IAD instructors have always been and will continue to be the backbone of our sport.Wink










timmyfitz  (D License)

Mar 28, 2007, 8:21 AM
Post #25 of 77 (2615 views)
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Re: [camamel] How much different type of instructors should earns? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a DZO my self I know what I will do next summer with my instructors. But what you guys think is fare?
What do you already earn?
What do you want?
And why?

Thanks
Richard

Wasn't this suppose to be a thread about what instructors should earn or what they do earn? Focus people.


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