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JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ

 

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packertom  (C License)

Mar 5, 2007, 8:07 PM
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JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ Can't Post

this is important people. go to the sunpath homepage and read the adobe download concerning RSL's on javelins and javelin odessys... as it is stated by the manufacturer, if you are a pilot flying a load of skydivers or a rigger packing reserves on javelins or a rigger supervising others packing javelins, you are putting your ticket on the line by placing into service any unairworthy rig... ie.. any javelin or javelin odessey without an RSL or an annotated pack data card signed by a master rigger stating that the rig has had the RSL removed... this statement by Sunpath effectively causes every Javelin in existance to be as of this date unairworthy and not in compliance with the TSO unless it has an RSL installed or has a MASTER RIGGERS certification that it has been ALTERED and that the MASTER RIGGER takes responsibility for altering the rig with the manufacturer stating that they STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT IT IS NOT REMOVED. basically, this means that if you have a Javelin and don't have an RSL or have a MASTER RIGGER certifying the removal, you can not get on a plane. This is important people, if you are packing or flying jumpers with javelins, you need to be aware that if they are not in compliance with this notice, you are placing into service a rig that is not legally AIRWORTHY. Personally, I salute sunpath for taking a stand on this important issue... Kudos to sunpath for stepping up and making known their focus on jumper safety.

Tom


www.velocitysportswear.com
Tom@velocitysportswear.com


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Mar 5, 2007, 8:16 PM
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

The document is attached. The download link is also posted below:

http://www.sunpath.com/..._answers_2-27-07.pdf
Attachments: RSL_answers_2-27-07.pdf (51.7 KB)


sundevil777  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 9:17 PM
Post #3 of 95 (4786 views)
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't give them Kudos at all.

What is it about the removal of the RSL that is so tricky it requires a master rigger?

This will ground many jumpers and cause them a lot of grief to get in the air again. Many airworthiness directives applied to airplanes allow a significant period of time for the inspection/repair/whatever to happen. I think it quite unreasonable for Sunpath to enforce it immediately.


tdog  (D 28800)

Mar 5, 2007, 9:17 PM
Post #4 of 95 (4787 views)
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Personally, I salute sunpath for taking a stand on this important issue... Kudos to sunpath for stepping up and making known their focus on jumper safety.

Tom

Can you further elaborate... Please, hopefully this does not get into another RSL debate, there are other threads to beat that horse in... However, I am curious... Are you suggesting that Sunpath is doing the right thing by recommending every rig have a connected RSL, or is there a concern that a RSL lanyard removed with some velcro and/or rings remaining is causing a known safety risk?


sundevil777  (D License)

Mar 5, 2007, 9:19 PM
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Re: [tdog] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
concern that a RSL lanyard removed with some velcro and/or rings remaining is causing a known safety risk?

Apparently Sunpath thinks a senior rigger can't be trusted to take care of the velcro and such when removing an RSL.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Mar 5, 2007, 9:27 PM
Post #6 of 95 (4775 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

No,

I take it that Sunpath considers removal of the RSL an alteration of the approved item. Only a Master Rigger may alter an approved item AND must have the appropriate FAA paperwork!

I'm interested to here when a Master Rigger obtains FAA approval for this alteration. I for one don't plan on asking for it.


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Mar 5, 2007, 10:14 PM
Post #7 of 95 (4751 views)
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
as it is stated by the manufacturer, if you are a pilot flying a load of skydivers

I didn't see in the document where it referenced pilots flying loads. I know that in the States the pilot can be held responsible if a reserve is not in date and that pilots depend on manifest to make sure that they have good records on their jumpers so that no one is jumping a rig with an out-of-date reserve.

How does this statement by Sunpath translate into someone (manifest/pilot) has to check to documentation to make sure a Master Rigger removed the RSL on a Javelin and keep records of this too?

Sorry if I appear to be obtuse, but I need help understanding how this impacts pilots.


skymedic  (C 33561)

Mar 5, 2007, 11:22 PM
Post #8 of 95 (4731 views)
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

So if I bought a used Javelin without an RSL that had never been installed even by Sunpath (as it was an option) my rig would be unairworthy??? that's some screwed up shit.


bliston  (D 23040)

Mar 6, 2007, 4:54 AM
Post #9 of 95 (4628 views)
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Re: [skymedic] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

I, too, am a bit unclear on this point. In the earlier thread, there was mention of a difference between rigs that came from the factory without a RSL, guide rings, ring on the original risers, or pile sewn in. I'm holding one manufactured in April, 2000 that is came configured from the factory this way. Unless I missed something in the letter, they don't clearly state which units are affected - every Jav or Odyssey out there, just ones from a certain date forward, or only ones that came with RSLs from the factory... This is a pre-coffee post, so sorry if I missed something obvious...

Ben


tombuch  (D 8514)

Mar 6, 2007, 6:17 AM
Post #10 of 95 (4578 views)
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Re: [IanHarrop] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I didn't see in the document where it referenced pilots flying loads. I know that in the States the pilot can be held responsible if a reserve is not in date and that pilots depend on manifest to make sure that they have good records on their jumpers so that no one is jumping a rig with an out-of-date reserve.

How does this statement by Sunpath translate into someone (manifest/pilot) has to check to documentation to make sure a Master Rigger removed the RSL on a Javelin and keep records of this too?

Sorry if I appear to be obtuse, but I need help understanding how this impacts pilots.

Check out my article "FAA Regulations Applied" at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php

The specific regulation is 105.43 which says, in part:

No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single harness, dual parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single harness dual parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container..."

The words "person" and "parachute operation" specifically include the pilots, manifest workers, owners, and anybody else related to the jump.
.


packertom  (C License)

Mar 6, 2007, 7:53 AM
Post #11 of 95 (4492 views)
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

let me clarify my kudos to Sunpath. I personally don't jump an RSL and don't like them... however, the fact that Sunpath has finally come out with a black and white answer to this serious question is where I am proud of them. In the past this has been up in the air and the riggers and pilots were in jeopardy depending on the answer from the manufacturer. This statement is unequivicable and leaves no area for debate, thus letting everyone know where they stand in the future. Additionally, sunpath believes in RSL's and is taking a stand on this subject.. whether I believe in RSL's or not has no bearing on the matter.. I salute them for taking a stand, no matter what that may be... as to senior riggers working on the RSL... read up on the regs... according to the TSO paperwork submitted by sunpath, the RSL is part of the reserve tray and any alteration of the reserve assy must be done by a master rigger, they are just sticking with the law, if you don't like that ruling, talk to the FAA not to sunpath, they didn't make that rule. Here's the deal guys, this isn't a big deal unless we make it one... if you have a javelin either put an RSl on it, leave the one that is on it in place, or get a master rigger to sign off on the removal... it's that easy and you're back in the air... but beware packers, riggers and pilots, if that javelin doesn't meet these requirements, it can't be jumped until it does.

Tom

tom@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Mar 6, 2007, 8:08 AM
Post #12 of 95 (4473 views)
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

According to the document only Javelins after Feb 2007 come standard with an RSL/Collins Lanyard. I am assuming that at some point having having an RSL on a Javelin was an option. If this is a correct assumption than I am not so sure that the following statement is true.

Quote:
if you have a javelin either put an RSL on it, leave the one that is on it in place, or get a master rigger to sign off on the removal

If somebody has a Javelin that never had an RSL on it, I don't see that they are required to get one put on. Perhaps my assumption is wrong and all Javelins have always had an RSL on them.

Can anyone clarify this?


toolbox  (D 18778)

Mar 6, 2007, 8:46 AM
Post #13 of 95 (4441 views)
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

I will not be buying a javelin then. I have 64 cutaways,7 on sport rigs without a RSL,20 on strong tandems with the RSL unhooked(when strong allowed TI's to do so because of riser breakage issues),two more on strongs and the rest on relative workshop tandems with the RSL hooked up.
The worst reserve deployments I've experienced were while using the RSL while chopping from hard whipping main malfunctions.
I had one RSL deployment bounce the freebag off the left side of my head when I chopped a wild wobbly spinner that was throwing us back and forth from our side to our back.
I always use the RSL when the manufacturer requires its use.
I understand the reasoning behind the manufacturers policies and I feel all solo students and many up jumpers should use RSL's, and RSL's have saved and will continue to save the lives of many skydivers who fail to pull the reserve in time after they cutaway.
I also feel that if you are no longer a student or taking a tandem student,you should be able to decide wether you use the RSL or not.
Just because some skydivers get spun out and cant find or pull the silver should not force everyone to use RSL's.
So why stop a person from removing or having a rigger remove a RSL from the rig they own as long as it's done right(like it's rocket science) if they are no longer skydiving in the student arena.


Mostly_Harmless  (C 35480)

Mar 6, 2007, 10:50 AM
Post #14 of 95 (4356 views)
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

I purchased Odyssey in Nov 05 and I have since then removed the RSL. Does that mean I can no longer jump my container?


RiggerLee

Mar 6, 2007, 10:52 AM
Post #15 of 95 (4351 views)
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Re: [Mostly_Harmless] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

That's exactly what it means. Find your RSL or get it signed off. Otherwise your fucked.

Lee


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007, 10:53 AM
Post #16 of 95 (4352 views)
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Re: [packertom] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

> Additionally, sunpath believes in RSL's and is taking a stand on
>this subject.. whether I believe in RSL's or not has no bearing on the
>matter..

That's a good point. People may not like this approach, but at least it's there in black and white for people who are considering purchasing a rig.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007, 10:56 AM
Post #17 of 95 (4347 views)
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Re: [councilman24] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

>Only a Master Rigger may alter an approved item AND must have
>the appropriate FAA paperwork!

Are you thinking this would be a form-337 alteration?


mark  (D 6108)

Mar 6, 2007, 11:27 AM
Post #18 of 95 (4322 views)
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Re: [billvon] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Are you thinking this would be a form-337 alteration?

Terry might have a different regulation in mind than I do. I'm looking at 65.129(d): [No certificated parachute rigger may --] "Alter a parachute in a manner that is not specifically authorized by the Administrator or the manufacturer." (My emphasis added.)

I think the letter from Sunpath constitutes authorization for the alteration, and no further approval from the FAA is necessary.

AC-1052c, section 8, "Parachute Alterations," can be read two ways. Construed broadly, even alterations approved by the manufacturer would need further approval by the local FSDO. Construed narrowly (and it is an Advisory Circular, after all), this section applies only to alterations where manufacturer's approval is not sought or obtained.

Mark


RiggerLee

Mar 6, 2007, 11:40 AM
Post #19 of 95 (4303 views)
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Re: [billvon] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I have receaved approval for a couple of alterations through the local FSDO. At the time Gene Bland said that it was not necasary to compleat a 337. He alowed me to write up the design and drawing my self. Stanford signed them off as a master rigger and Gene approved them with just a date stamp. This is a alternative to receaving approval through the manufactor.

Lee


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 6, 2007, 11:43 AM
Post #20 of 95 (4301 views)
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Re: [mark] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

This may or may not have been mentioned here or in another thread, but what about CRWDOGS that use Javelins for CRW specific jumps, namely using the PD Lightning. None of them will jump with an RSL. I don't have a Javelin but I don't use my RSL either.

What is Sunpath's opinion on this?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Mar 6, 2007, 11:54 AM
Post #21 of 95 (4296 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

You're only allowed to disconnect the RSL shackle in case of emergency, meaning crw dogs and camera people are screwed?!? Or, hopefully, just won't follow this reg.

Seems like totally removing the RSL may be easier than just disconnecting it for certain jumps which is screwed up Crazy


linestretch  (D 21060)

Mar 6, 2007, 12:17 PM
Post #22 of 95 (4281 views)
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Re: [dragon2] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

So does this mean AAD's are going to be required next unless signed off by a master rigger? I don't see the good in this, especially all the rigs that now can't be jumped....or repacked. Dam, a lot of my rigging customers own javelins....poor bastards.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Mar 6, 2007, 12:21 PM
Post #23 of 95 (4276 views)
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Re: [linestretch] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm thinking it can't be that hard to get the rigs that have had their RSL removed signed off, can it?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007, 12:23 PM
Post #24 of 95 (4272 views)
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Re: [dragon2] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

> I'm thinking it can't be that hard to get the rigs that have had their
>RSL removed signed off, can it?

That is what's being discussed now. It may entail just a signature, or a signature and some supporting documentation, or a signature, supporting documentation and FAA approval. Obviously if it's just a signature it's not a big deal.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 6, 2007, 12:30 PM
Post #25 of 95 (4249 views)
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Re: [billvon] JAVELIN RSL... IMPORTANT, MUST READ [In reply to] Can't Post

After getting off the phone with my local FSDO as well as a master rigger, my understanding based on what I was told by the FSDO FAA inspector, I need to reinstall the RLS and take it to the master rigger to have him remove it and sign the data card as well as his log book, end of story.

I would advise anyone who is not sure as to the wording of SP to call your local FSDO. I'm sure results will very from FSDO to FSDO.


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