Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock?

 

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skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Feb 19, 2007, 8:59 AM
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how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? Can't Post

I have video of a sigma bag locking and the cut away not releasing the mal. RWS said SOP was to clear risers manually in the event of a bag lock after cut away then deply reserve.

josh


crazydiver  (D 28022)

Feb 19, 2007, 12:41 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I always check to make sure the canopy is clear before deploying the reserve. So if the risers were hung up I would catch the issue.

Luckily...every sigma rig I jump, the riser covers pop open on the ground...I'd be very surprised and it would be super ironic if they were to NOT release in the air. Wink And yes, I know...magnetic riser covers...new, improved, bla bla bla


(This post was edited by crazydiver on Feb 19, 2007, 12:43 PM)


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Feb 19, 2007, 3:02 PM
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Re: [crazydiver] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Riser covers were open. Lots of slack in the lines to the bag lock gave the mal the appearance that there was not enough tension to release the 3 ring. Similar to a horseshoe. TM fired the reserve with the baglock and it clears. Sickening to watch.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Feb 19, 2007, 5:25 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the three rings are not properly maintained they can take a set that can make them slow to release in a baglock or other "low-lift" malfunction. UPT says to perform maintenance on any rig with a 3-ring once a month (see attached document).

If you have the video of the mal you are talking about, can you post a link? I would like to see it.
Attachments: 09219.pdf (57.2 KB)


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Feb 19, 2007, 6:46 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have video of a sigma bag locking and the cut away not releasing the mal. RWS said SOP was to clear risers manually in the event of a bag lock after cut away then deply reserve.

josh

That is NOT the current SOP according to the UPT Tandem Examiner handbook received in Sept 2006. Maybe that has changed and word hasn't got around to the 3 T/E's that I talked to about it. I think any TI should have the awareness that the risers didn't clear, but....


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 19, 2007, 8:14 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

by any chance was it the RSL side that hung up?

The fatality in Guam comes to mind here.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 20, 2007, 7:51 AM
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Re: [linestretch] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
by any chance was it the RSL side that hung up?

The fatality in Guam comes to mind here.
It is probably possible that a collapsed-drogue-bag-lock will not generate enough force to unstrip the RSL velcro on a Sigma. However, that was not the cause of the Guam fatality. The reserve lines were wrapped around BOTH main line groups, just above the risers. This clearly indicates that BOTH main risers were still hooked up when the reserve was pulled.


linestretch  (D 21060)

Feb 20, 2007, 12:16 PM
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Re: [billbooth] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanx for the clarification. I don't remember reading that back when the report was filed or put out. That does make a big difference.


But....not to open this can of worms AGAIN....was it taken into consideration how much the gear was molested by the time it got to you or whoever did the analysis? I worked over there and know a little how the locals operate and what was relayed to me about scene. Just a thought.....I don't really see it as cut and dry.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 20, 2007, 6:28 PM
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Re: [linestretch] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

The evidence looked pretty convincing to me. I came in a sealed container, and was opened at a neutral location in front of me, an FAA observer, and several other witnesses. We were also supplied with video and still pictures from the site, which agreed with the actual condition of the rig as I saw it. If someone played with something, I don't know how.


tsalnukt

Feb 21, 2007, 2:36 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Shouldn't you always make sure the risers are clear before dumping a reserve....sport rig or tandem? That's just common sense to me.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 21, 2007, 6:15 PM
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Re: [tsalnukt] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Shouldn't you always make sure the risers are clear before dumping a reserve....sport rig or tandem? That's just common sense to me.
It is possible with any rig to have a bag lock, or other low drag malfunction, that will not open tuck tab riser covers (which can take well over 30 lbs. of pull to open). You should always be sure that your risers are completely free before pulling your reserve ripcord.


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Feb 22, 2007, 6:02 AM
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Re: [billbooth] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Shouln't a bag lock supply at least 30 pounds of pull force?


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 23, 2007, 7:13 PM
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Shouln't a bag lock supply at least 30 pounds of pull force?
Yes, (usually) if your main pilot chute is properly designed and fully open...No, if your main pilot chute is improperly designed or streamered. A common cause of a bag lock is forgetting to cock you pilot chute. The streamered pilot chute lifts the bag off so slowly, that the lines blow up over and around the bag. Pilot chutes can also knot up with their bridle. Remember, some people have landed fully open canopies that NEVER opened their tuck tab riser covers.


RTB  (D 582)

Feb 25, 2007, 3:18 AM
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Re: [billbooth] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You should always be sure that your risers are completely free before pulling your reserve ripcord.

This is interesting, does this mean that if you are using the RSL and have a baglock, that has not released the riser covers, you should manually release them before cutting away?


billbooth  (D 3546)

Feb 25, 2007, 7:55 AM
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Re: [RTB] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You should always be sure that your risers are completely free before pulling your reserve ripcord.

This is interesting, does this mean that if you are using the RSL and have a baglock, that has not released the riser covers, you should manually release them before cutting away?
Yes, if you have time.


Laszloimage  (D 22468)

Feb 26, 2007, 2:13 PM
Post #16 of 88 (7853 views)
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Re: [RTB] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Always makes me wonder what causes a bag-lock on a tandem? On the Sigma or systems with a similar d-bags (just like sport rigs) you really have to work on it to pack a baglock!!!
Just don't pack them, it super easy to prevent them.
-Laszlo-


bclark  (D 22626)

Mar 2, 2007, 5:20 PM
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Re: [Laszloimage] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that bag locks are largely preventable.
I would like to hear from some TI's who have actually HAD bag locks on Sigmas. What were your experiences? Did risers release on their own? Did you have to manually clear them? How about with Skyhooked Sigmas? I have heard the theory that with such a quick reserve extraction a cut away bag lock may fall into the reserve canopy.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Mar 6, 2007, 12:36 AM
Post #18 of 88 (7704 views)
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Re: [skydiveoc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have video of a sigma bag locking and the cut away not releasing the mal.

Please post is here.


toronto_bill  (C 3085)

Mar 19, 2007, 11:05 PM
Post #19 of 88 (7619 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm....I do tandems on a Sigma. The chute always comes out the same. How many people use tube stows on all or some of the stows. Our DZ uses large elastics. They break a lot but we like that !


RMURRAY

Mar 20, 2007, 2:43 AM
Post #20 of 88 (7607 views)
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Re: [toronto_bill] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hmmm....I do tandems on a Sigma. The chute always comes out the same. How many people use tube stows on all or some of the stows. Our DZ uses large elastics. They break a lot but we like that !

elastics = rubber bands eh

Wink
rm


skydiveoc  (D 12721)

Mar 21, 2007, 6:03 AM
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Re: [RMURRAY] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

The rig in question here had medium stoes through the grommets and large tandem bands on the sides. No tube stoes and the same experienced packer with thousands of tandem packs. I feel every sigma master should have it in their mind to clear risers and plan to have a bag lock at any time.


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 15, 2009, 8:26 PM
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Re: [bclark] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

FYI -
I recently had a SIGMA Baglock where the risers did not release after I cutaway, and the reserve almost entangled with the main/drogue. It appears that the riser covers were open.

One TM who was at the DZ that day reported that he had been told always manually clear the risers for a baglock (due to low-drag), but most of us had not heard that response emphasized.

Therefore, two points
1-The pics showing my reserve going by my main made my stomach sick - i'm glad to be here.
2-Please help spread the word - manually clear risers on a collapsing-drogue systems (like SIGMAs) that experience a baglock. (This thread also discusses low-drag malfunctions not opening riser covers which is a similar situation to be concerned about).

Mark

FYI: We are evaluating the pictures/vid and will be sending to UPT for review, until then, they will not be posted.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 16, 2009, 9:24 AM
Post #23 of 88 (6989 views)
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Re: [weavermc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfortunately easier said than done.

Deploy
Bag lock
release RSL
Cut Away
Manually clear risers
Stability?
Reserve.

Whew!


weavermc  (D 19326)

Mar 16, 2009, 9:28 AM
Post #24 of 88 (6986 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know its a lot - and to be honest, had I thought to do it, it would have been taxing.... however, looking at the "after" pics, I will now try to find a way to do all that in this situation.

I also read about the Guam Tandem fatality which involved a reserve/main entanglement and I feel lucky mine did not turn out that way.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Mar 16, 2009, 7:08 PM
Post #25 of 88 (6871 views)
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Re: [weavermc] how many sigma tm's clear risers in event of bag lock? [In reply to] Can't Post

Frick! Glad you're ok! If I was jumping a system where if I had a baglock I would have to unhook the RSL, cutaway, clear the risers, then pull the reserve - I would at least never hook the RSL up to save one step! That costs a LOT of time - where you're still going freefall speeds...

The skyhooks are a good system, and I like the idea of RSLs on tandems, but having to disconnect it during a high-speed malfunction just seems like a bad idea..


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