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100 jump wonders/coaches

 

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MagicGuy  (D 30470)

Feb 21, 2007, 1:56 PM
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Re: [upndownshop] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All I am saying is that there are so many things that can happen when you put two newbies (and yes 100 jumps is a newbie) together that experience may save lives.

I'm in a debative mood.. so if someone with 100 jumps is still a newbie (which they are), why are newly A Licensed jumpers allowed to do 4 ways and other formation jumps? If 2 newbies can be trouble, as you say, than what kind of danger is a new skydiver in when they do a 4 way, fresh out of being a student?


Pulse  (D 16387)

Feb 21, 2007, 2:39 PM
Post #27 of 129 (1295 views)
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Re: [MagicGuy] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
All I am saying is that there are so many things that can happen when you put two newbies (and yes 100 jumps is a newbie) together that experience may save lives.

I'm in a debative mood.. so if someone with 100 jumps is still a newbie (which they are), why are newly A Licensed jumpers allowed to do 4 ways and other formation jumps? If 2 newbies can be trouble, as you say, than what kind of danger is a new skydiver in when they do a 4 way, fresh out of being a student?

Four brand new jumpers on a 4-way.....scary.

Three 'experienced' jumpers and one newbie on a 4-way......best case scenario (assuming the 'experienced' people know what they're doing)

Basically, the higher the ratio of high experience to low experience on the dive, the better.


MagicGuy  (D 30470)

Feb 21, 2007, 3:20 PM
Post #28 of 129 (1282 views)
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Re: [Pulse] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm.. interesting. So should there be more regulation as far as what type of jumps a newly A Licensed jumper can go on? I know myself that once I got my A License it was like freedom. I was jumping with anyone that I could, from 2 ways to 12 ways. Most of the time there was at least one person with a lot of experience on the dive. But I've been on 4 ways with 3 other people that have less than 100 jumps.


psf  (C License)

Feb 21, 2007, 3:46 PM
Post #29 of 129 (1273 views)
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Re: [PeterB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any incidences where injury occured that was related to a "100 jump wonder" coach, and could have/should have been avoided with a more "experienced" coach?
And don't coaches need to go thru training? and be signed off by competent instructors before they become coaches?
And no I was not, and am not a coach.


jdthomas  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 3:57 PM
Post #30 of 129 (1269 views)
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Re: [psf] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any incidences where injury occured that was related to a "100 jump wonder" coach, and could have/should have been avoided with a more "experienced" coach?
And don't coaches need to go thru training? and be signed off by competent instructors before they become coaches?
And no I was not, and am not a coach.

Yes coaches are signed off on by coach course instructors.. there are a few programs out there that are quick and easy to pass that don't require much of the canidate.. thats just my opinion and not fact.
After all coach rating should be easier to get then instructor.. i just feel that coach rating has not done the sport any favors at this time and shoudl be removed much like the BIC course.
Joe


Pulse  (D 16387)

Feb 21, 2007, 5:29 PM
Post #31 of 129 (1244 views)
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Re: [MagicGuy] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hmm.. interesting. So should there be more regulation as far as what type of jumps a newly A Licensed jumper can go on? I know myself that once I got my A License it was like freedom. I was jumping with anyone that I could, from 2 ways to 12 ways. Most of the time there was at least one person with a lot of experience on the dive. But I've been on 4 ways with 3 other people that have less than 100 jumps.

Why do people automatically assume 'regulation'?

No. I really wasn't even meaning to imply that new jumpers shouldn't jump with one another. I spent my first 20 jumps off student status with two other guys who got their A-licenses the same weekend.

But one can't deny that the opportunity for learning goes up and it may be somewhat safer if there are some experienced jumpers on the load.

Even though I spent my early days jumping with other newbies. I'd have to say, with hindsight, I'm glad we got away with some of the stuff we used to do, (or not do).


AFFI  (D 25538)

Feb 21, 2007, 6:38 PM
Post #32 of 129 (1223 views)
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:

While there a USPA coach was about to board a plane when i noticed that his main closing pin was exposed, so exposed that his main flap was actually covering his closing loop and not his pin!
I called him out on this and he seemd to not care at all. I informed him of the safety aspect of it and the risk of a mal and perhaps a premie while on climb out and thus risking evryone on the plane and still there was apathy.



Apathy I think that is the key word.

As someone mentioned, there are rating holders who have 8,000 jumps and they trust their expertise as skydiving mentors about as far as they could comfortably spit out a rat.

I am often times astonished at the apathetic attitude and practices that some rating holders/S&TAs/DZs seem to illustrate. The playing the odds of nothing will likely happen so why put forth the effort mentality, or perhaps that is just what they might think is quality training in contrast to what I personally believe it is.

Acquisition of a rating and the standards to obtain one notwithstanding, the bottom line I believe is the attitude and effort the individual rating holder is willing to put forth. I make this comment based on the fact that I have seen outstanding instructors that attained their rating in the new system that I consider quality teachers in contrast to some rating holders that were bred from the old system that, (for lack of a better word) suck as skydiving mentors.

-


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Feb 21, 2007, 9:39 PM
Post #33 of 129 (1197 views)
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Re: [AFFI] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I realize that I am out of my element but I can't help myself. Coaches as I understand it are there for supplemental instruction. They are there to oversee a students jump. That student has made multiple jumps by that point. They are not there to train students from the ground up. They are there to give a student someone to jump with and provide tips on how to improve. Let's look at what a coach really does as far as I understand it. They might help a student pack a parachute. They better know how to pack a parachute considering they have made it to even just 100 jumps. They review emergency procedures with the student. Any licensed skydiver even one who has 100 jumps has the EP embedded in there brain. They do a gear check. This is something any licensed skydiver does. They help spot the aircraft if it is needed. This skill is taught throughout the licensing process and they have most likely spotted the plane a fair amount even at 100 jumps. They watch the student in freefall and give pointers and provide a second set of eyes. Coaches are not instructors. They are not meant to replace instructors during the latter part of the training process. I know that many people will continue to believe that coaches should not be around and only instructors should be dealing with students, but I guess I just have a different understanding of what the purpose of a coach is. Anyway again just my thoughts.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Feb 22, 2007, 7:30 AM
Post #34 of 129 (1146 views)
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Re: [jheadley] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
, as long as all of their training of students is closely supervised by instructors

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but coaches arent rated to train students.

I think you US skydivers are a bit hung up with the term coach. We've had the caoch rating in canada for a few years now. Its split in 2 basic levels, with 2 more on a nataional team training level (its actually part of the Canadian Coaching rating system that applies to all sports).

Coach 1 is pretty close to the US coah rating. Its there to get very juniop jumpers some level of mentoring. Its not there to teach RW, or VR, or any of these techniques. Thats the coach 2 level that requirtes 500 jumps I think.


PS: the rating system may have changed in Canada a bit recently, but still follows that same pattern.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Feb 22, 2007, 7:44 AM
Post #35 of 129 (1137 views)
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Re: [Remster] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but coaches arent rated to train students.

Isn't it more in how you define "student"? The USPA coach is cleared to work with students who are cleared for self-supervision. They are not yet licensed, so they'd be considered students, but they'd be past the AFF/SL/IAD portion of their training.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 22, 2007, 8:19 AM
Post #36 of 129 (1135 views)
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Re: 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
PSF,
"And don't coaches need to go thru training? and be signed off by competent instructors before they become coaches?"
It seems to me that at 500 jumps and a C-license one should have at least heard of Coach rating requirements.


In reply to:
Remster,
"Forgive me if I'm wrong, but coaches arent rated to train students."
US Coaches can teach general FJC up to the point of dive-specific info. They can teach in-air skills after students reach "self-supervision" status.



Here's my problem with the Coach rating.
The Coach rating course is not a knowledge-based course. All too often, new Coaches pass the course and then go out and teach some of the silliest crap I have ever seen then get their panties in a wad when you correct them, regardless of what approach you use to do it. It's like, "Hey! I passed the course! I'm a Coach. I know it all!"

From what I have seen in several Coach courses, is that there is very little effort by the course directors in figuring out if the candidate actually has sufficient knowledge to pass on to the other newbies. The course simply is "If you can teach THIS in THIS manner, you're good to go." Hell, a wuffo could come in and pass the course by simply doing that and from what I've seen, some of the "coaches" are not very far removed from wuffo status.

(side note: The AFFI Ground Prep is also pathetic in the same way as the Coach course ground prep; regurgitate THIS in THIS order and you pass.)

I would change the course to two prime objectives:
1. WTF do you know, then if, and only if, sufficient,
2. Hammer home teaching techniques.

I was extremely lucky in that I was "raised" by highly conservative mentors one of whom was later my Coach course Director that wouldn't even let me take the course until after I had proved my self knowledgeable enough to keep from hurting someone and even then stayed on top of my teaching to correct me if I got off base.

Aw hell...now you got me all pissed off today.
Mad


AFFI  (D 25538)

Feb 22, 2007, 8:30 AM
Post #37 of 129 (1130 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Any licensed skydiver even one who has 100 jumps has the EP embedded in there brain.

Unfortunately, this is not the case
-


jheadley  (D 28710)

Feb 22, 2007, 8:46 AM
Post #38 of 129 (1119 views)
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Re: [Remster] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
, as long as all of their training of students is closely supervised by instructors

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but coaches arent rated to train students.
In reply to:

I forgive you. Wink

US coaches can teach most of the FJC and Categories F, G, and H of the ISP. (Tracking, forward movement, fall rate control, docking, diving). They've finished AFF but are still students.

Popsjumper, I agree with you 100%.


boyd38off  (D License)

Feb 22, 2007, 10:30 AM
Post #39 of 129 (1072 views)
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Re: [jheadley] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not a 100-jump wonder yet, but will be as soon as the weather warms up a bit. I want to get my coach rating. Here's how I see the role of a coach... correct me if I'm wrong.

I would help plan a dive, do gear checks, and review safety/emergency procedures before a dive. Then we'd do a super basic jump together, high-5 on the ground, and both walk away with huge smiles from enjoying every second of every jump. I'm not going to actively save anyone, teach anything new, or collect one penny for doing it. I'll pay for my own jumps... because as a relatively new jumper, it will benefit me just as much as the "student" to have motivation to practice, plan, and ensure my own safety without becoming complacent about it. We'll both benefit from it.

I hate solo jumps. I hated having to do solo's to get my A. If I can be taught the most elementary stuff to be able to safely jump with someone who has been cleared for solo's, I think it's a win/win arrangement. Do I know what a 150, 500, 10,000-jump jumper does? Hell no... Can I help a fresh-off-AFF'er make a safe, fun jump based on what they've already been taught? I think so.

I am a very passionate person. New jumpers just off AFF are too. Coming off AFF is a major milestone, and I think it will be great to share the passion safely.

I want to be the one at the DZ that is super-welcoming to new AFF graduates. I love to share my passion for this incredible experience.


Fast  (D 28237)

Feb 22, 2007, 10:30 AM
Post #40 of 129 (1072 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to agree with some of the assesment. There is far to little emphasis that is put on what you are teaching as a coach. I got my coach rating after a couple hundred jumps but I already had 90% of the knowledge in my head from listening to and reading as much as I could about skydiving.

I have always felt that it was too easy for me and some other people I have met to get thier coach ratings. I think it boils down to people needing to take the responsibility seriously. Eventually I will be an AFFI, mostly because I care about how students are taught and I find it enjoyable to help them meet thier goals.


pilotdave  (D License)

Feb 22, 2007, 10:44 AM
Post #41 of 129 (1073 views)
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Re: [Fast] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the requirements are too low, but it's up to individual dropzones to implement the coach program in a way that benefits their students. I went through the traditional 7 level AFF program (before there was a coach rating). Now I jump at a dropzone that follows the ISP and has a lot of really good coaches. None of them only meet the minimum requirements. I think all our coaches are D-licensed or C-licensed at the very least. I have seen rated coaches get turned down from teaching at our DZ. There's no rule that says anyone that has passed the course must get hired.

I'm absolutely AMAZED at how much better our fresh A-license holders are than I was or anybody else was that did 7 AFF jumps and 13 solos to get their license. New jumpers learn things that I didn't learn until I had many more jumps. They're more competent with their gear, spotting, and general skydiving knowledge too. But that's not because they're taught by "100 jump wonders." It's because they're taught by competent skydivers that have taken the coach course and learned to teach skills that they already had.

A dropzone that puts their students with incompetent coaches, rated or not, isn't teaching their students properly.

Dave


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Feb 22, 2007, 11:22 AM
Post #42 of 129 (1046 views)
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

After reading this thread thoroughly I have realized something. It is said over and over again that if someone has low jump numbers, say below 500 they get told that they don't know crap. They can't do this they can't do that. In my observations rarely do you hear about stuff that people know, and do right. If when I began skiing back when I was very young I heard "oh man you don't know anything", I'm not sure if I would've continued. Instead I heard good you are really improving. You are doing this right. There are somethings you need to work on and here they are. Now I would hope that at DZ's this attitude can be found. On DZ.com though it seems to be the opposite. Everybody who has low numbers has felt the obligation to say "I don't know anything" Is this the kind of attitude people should have? To feel the need to put themselves down before making a comment? Yes, us with low jump numbers don't know everything but we know something. No one will ever know everything. I know, I know far far less than someone with 10,000 more jumps than me. Someone with one more jump than me knows more. Do people need to work on being in touch with their own knowledge yes. Do we need to make low number jumpers feel like they are a lower class skydiver until they get to an "acceptable level"? Why not concentrate on presenting a more balanced attitude when it comes to criticisms of lower number jumpers. Once again this is just my verbal diarrhea and I don't know crap.


HeatherB  (B License)

Feb 22, 2007, 11:51 AM
Post #43 of 129 (1026 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

 
All I know is this: There is no way in hell I was "good enough" to be a coach at 100 jumps -- and I would say I was an average skilled skydiver at that point.

Does someone with 100 jumps really have the heightened awareness that is helpful, even crucial, when jumping with someone who is just off AFF? I very much doubt it.

I'd say the minimum should be 500 but most people don't make it to 500 so the pool of candidates would be greatly diminished.

I know several great, talented skydivers who waited a loooong time to get their AFF or coach ratings. I respect them a lot for that.


psf  (C License)

Feb 22, 2007, 3:20 PM
Post #44 of 129 (966 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PSF,
"And don't coaches need to go thru training? and be signed off by competent instructors before they become coaches?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that at 500 jumps and a C-license one should have at least heard of Coach rating requirements.



My statement was retorical.......
So what I see by reading the posts are.... guys with 100 jumps shouldn't be coaches (seems to be the general opinion here), but no one has a problem with instructors paperwhipping coaches out that aren't "coach" material.
Ironic.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Feb 22, 2007, 3:57 PM
Post #45 of 129 (950 views)
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Re: [HeatherB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All I know is this: There is no way in hell I was "good enough" to be a coach at 100 jumps -- and I would say I was an average skilled skydiver at that point.

Ten years ago we were officially on our own after making as few as seven student jumps. We jumped with each other and learned from people with no formal training in instruction. The USPA coach program is an inexpensive solution to both of those problems. You could set the coach rating requirements to 500 jumps and intensive training at which point the rating would be indistinguishable from AFF-I, the number of holders similar, and jump prices comparable. That's just not needed.

All that's required is for the coach to fall straight down, follow a dive plan, and maintain situational awareness which are all skills they should have picked up shortly after AFF. They also need some basic instructing skills which USPA provides in the Coach course.

In reply to:
Does someone with 100 jumps really have the heightened awareness that is helpful, even crucial, when jumping with someone who is just off AFF?

Some one just off AFF has been cleared to jumpmaster themselves. They shouldn't need a baby sitter.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Feb 22, 2007, 4:14 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 22, 2007, 4:11 PM
Post #46 of 129 (935 views)
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Re: [psf] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...So what I see by reading the posts are.... guys with 100 jumps shouldn't be coaches (seems to be the general opinion here), but no one has a problem with instructors paperwhipping coaches out that aren't "coach" material.
Ironic.

As always there are exceptions, of course.

I iterate my point about the quality of the course material and process for preparing coaches.

New point: The derogatory term, 100-jump-wonder, implies a jumper not qualified to teach.


HeatherB  (B License)

Feb 22, 2007, 4:41 PM
Post #47 of 129 (923 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that the coach and AFF ratings have different purposes and setting the minimum at 500 for the coach rating would be silly. It'd be nice to see higher standards though. The course is often referred to as a joke. It shouldn't be.

I'm sure some courses are easier than others -- depending on who runs the course and how badly the dz needs coaches.


jdthomas  (D License)

Feb 22, 2007, 7:00 PM
Post #48 of 129 (891 views)
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Re: [HeatherB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

 Wow I have opened a small can of worms here! I like many of the view points here and I respect everyones thoughts on the subject as well, I guess this thing (the coach rating) has been beat up many times before and I am niot sure when we will see the end of it if we ever do.
What I am suprised most about is that the thread took off topic and while many wanted to be pro or con the coach rating we forgot about the event that spurred my post.
This person who passed a course and can now "coach" young skydivers was about to place himself, other jumpers and the pilot in harms way over a closing loop.. Myself and others tried to influence a diffrent choice in this jumper but he was not giving in.
Next sad point was that the pilot took the jumper into his aircraft and once again I revert back to everyone on that load was an experienced jumper all holding some type of rating! Wow I could not believe waht i was seeing.
How many of those people who posted or read this thread that are seeking a coach rating read the part about the real issue the closing loop or did they just read the 100 jump wonder/coach part?
The first link in the chain of safety was broken when this jumper bacame a coach, the next link was broken due to his apathy for gear safety and the safety of his "friends" and I use that lightly because it seemed he just did not care about thier safety..
Now when he "falls" and coaches a student with all his wonderous knowledge will the students safety be in jepordy? after all a closing loop that was not safe to me was to him and why would it not be to the student..
Just to throw this into the mix.. this coach made it thru the coaches course with this attitude and this gear!!!!!
Joe


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 22, 2007, 7:12 PM
Post #49 of 129 (884 views)
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

> This person who passed a course and can now "coach" young
>skydivers was about to place himself, other jumpers and the pilot in harms
>way over a closing loop..

That's bad, but that has little to do with being a coach. I've seen 'real' coaches, with thousands of jumps, exhibit a similar lack of concern over gear issues, bad spots, incoming weather, airplane traffic etc. Same goes for AFF instructors and bigway organizers. You don't need a rating to be careless.

Put it this way. He wouldn't have put people at any more or less risk if he hadn't had that rating, and was still doing that 4-way.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 22, 2007, 7:19 PM
Post #50 of 129 (881 views)
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have refused to board the airplane ... out of fear that he would have ripped the tail off the airplane when his parachute deployed pre-maturely.


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