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Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not?

 

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packertom  (C License)

Feb 20, 2007, 8:00 AM
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Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? Can't Post

at the PIA rigging forum a comment was put out by the sunpath rep that Derek Thomas wants RSLs to stay on rigs that were equipped with them and as a rigger you shouldn't pack one that has had the RSL removed. we've been back and forth on this for a while and I've seen memo's from sunpath stating that it is HIGHLY recommended for the rsl to stay on yada yada... what I would like to know is, what is the real no kidding manufacturers ruling on this subject. ie.. if there is an accident and that person has his RSL removed is sunpath going to tell the FAA that in their opinion the rig was not maintained in accordance with manufacturers recommendations? honestly riggers out there, until sunpath makes this issue clear, anyone packing a javelin that came from the factory with an rsl that no longer has an RSL on it is in a position of jeopardy, that includes packing the main because packing the main could be seen as placing into service a rig that has not been maintained IAW the manufacturers recommendaitons and is therefore unairworthy...

tom
www.velocitysportswear.com


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Feb 20, 2007, 8:25 AM
Post #2 of 136 (8263 views)
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is thier official statement.


I take it to mean that it should not be removed. Word was they are looking at revising their owners manual to state their position about removal. That brings up a side topic about what manual should be used at packing time, the version that shipped with it or a moree current one if the manual does not state that it supercedes all previous manuals?
Attachments: RSLpostion.pdf (57.0 KB)


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 8:26 AM
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom... I've heard similar. Why don't you call up Sunpath and ask for written verification one way or the other.

I'd be currious to know what Sunpath's NO SHIT position is on this too. i.e...

1) Removal of the RSL from a Jav or Odessy voids the TSO and a rigger SHALL NOT pack one that has had the RSL removed.

OR

2) They HIGHLY RECOMMEND that the RSL shouldn't be removed and that riggers are advised not to pack rigs have had them removed.

I hate to sound like a lawyer, but if rig mfgr's don't want RSLs removed from their rigs and they don't want riggers packing their rigs that have had RSLs removed, they need to quit being meally mouthed about it, be more careful about the words they use in their manuals and state things very spicifically!

Of course, this opens them up to liability rather then dumping it all on the riggers in the field to deal with if the FAA and Lawyers come knocking. Mad


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 8:34 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

PZone... thanks for posting that.

I agree with you that Sunpath's statement... "permanent removal of this part is
highly discouraged and NOT recommended."... coming from the mfgr should carry a lot of weight, but it doesn't specifically state that permanent removal of the RSL from a Jav or Odyessy is something illegal that voids the TSO, SHALL NOT be done, etc.

My suspision is that if one were to talk to someone from Sunpath, that's what they would say, but they don't want to write it down.

Also, another good point is if they're DO update their manuals, what they should also do is clearly state which previous manuals and rigs (by DOM and s/n) the update supercedes... but they probably won't do that. Mad


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Feb 20, 2007, 8:52 AM
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

The RSL is a specific component that is included in the *Approved Configuration* during the TSO process. That should make it pretty clear to any rigger, no?


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 9:15 AM
Post #6 of 136 (8189 views)
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Re: [divnswoop] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The RSL is a specific component that is included in the *Approved Configuration* during the TSO process. That should make it pretty clear to any rigger, no?


No, its not clear, ergo all the discussions of Sunpath, Jav's & RSLs here and elsewhere.

Sunpath's memo, circa 16 May 2005...


To Whom It May Concern:
16 May 2005

Regarding the removal of the reserve static line (RSL) from Javelin and Javelin Odyssey
sport skydiving harness/container systems, the position of Sun Path Products, Inc is as
follows:

Our harness/container systems and all related accessories and components are tested in
accordance with SAE 8015 Rev. B. During our most current TSO testing, evaluation and
approval the Javelin and Javelin Odyssey harness/container system incorporates the
reserve static line as part of the complete system and permanent removal of this part is
highly discouraged and NOT recommended. Our reserve static line is built with a snap
shackle for easy disconnect from the main (wearers) left riser, if the user wishes to not
use the option.

Sincerely,
Dave Singer Derek Thomas
Engineer President/Owner
Sun Path Products, Inc


-------

If Sunpath really, NO SHIT, doewn't want RSLs removed from their rigs, the above should say...

"and permanent removal of this part SHALL NOT BE DONE."


I'll dig into it when I have more time, but my recollection of the TSOs are that if an RSL is to be included on the rig / system under test, that activation of the reserve has to be accomplished by the RSL for a ceratain number of the tests... not all of them. Thus, what difference does it make to the TSO for that system if the RSL lanyard is there, but not hooked up, or if the lanyard is gone altogether? Same thing different words, if the TSO for my Jav is still "valid" if the RSL is there, but disconnected when I jump it, how is that any different then if the lanyard is totally removed? There really is no difference, technically, but not the way the lawyers would see it, I'm sure.

I just wish Sunpath would take a firmer written stance on this one way or the other, quit sitting on the fence, saying that RSLs should be permanently removed from their rigs, but writting down something less clear.


(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Feb 20, 2007, 9:21 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Feb 20, 2007, 9:35 AM
Post #7 of 136 (8170 views)
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>what is the real no kidding manufacturers ruling on this subject.

The FAA's ruling on the subject is that a rigger who packs a Javelin without the RSL is not following the manufacturer's instructions. Recently a rigger was officially reprimanded by the FAA when he removed the RSL at the jumper's request.

>anyone packing a javelin that came from the factory with an rsl
>that no longer has an RSL on it is in a position of jeopardy.

Yep.


(This post was edited by billvon on Feb 20, 2007, 9:35 AM)


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 10:11 AM
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Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
what is the real no kidding manufacturers ruling on this subject.


The FAA's ruling on the subject is that a rigger who packs a Javelin without the RSL is not following the manufacturer's instructions. Recently a rigger was officially reprimanded by the FAA when he removed the RSL at the jumper's request.

Bill, thanks, not disagreeing with you, but do you have that in writting or can point us towards where its written down?


I'd still like to see Sunpath state something more firmly on this topic. They're continued un-clear (IMO) written guidance vs. what they "say" and "do" continues their "rep" as a company that builds a good product, but has shitty customer relations (also IMO).


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Feb 20, 2007, 10:24 AM
Post #9 of 136 (8122 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Quote:
I'd still like to see Sunpath state something more firmly on this topic.


As an FAA certified rigger I'm pretty concerned with what the FAA guildlines say. If the RSL is a component of an *approved configuration* I will not change that........Sunpath's wording has been pretty grey at best.....just my opinion though


kris2extreme  (C License)

Feb 20, 2007, 10:27 AM
Post #10 of 136 (8116 views)
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Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

that was what my rigger had said following PIA. He informed me and a couple of others who jump Javelins without RSL's that it didn't have to be hooked up, but had to be there for the repack.

I'm not sure if I'll get rid of my Javelin, or keep it for a second rig... but it has definitely pushed my timetable up for ordering a new and better fitting rig from another mfgr when I've got the cash to spare.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 20, 2007, 10:48 AM
Post #11 of 136 (8104 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I'd still like to see Sunpath state something more firmly on this topic.

Give em a call. They're doing a manual rewrite soon; perhaps if they get enough phone calls they will change the text.


jheadley  (D 28710)

Feb 20, 2007, 11:59 AM
Post #12 of 136 (8065 views)
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Are there other, or all, containers that this is true for?


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 12:12 PM
Post #13 of 136 (8056 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you, that by their wording, the RSL is not required to be present.

No matter how strongly they recommend against it, it is allowed. I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way. This is their written position, it shouldn't matter what else was said at some conference. If they wanted it to be interpreted differently, then other language should have been used.

If the "approved configuration" part of their statement was important to this discussion, then they should not have left it open with "highly discouraged" and "not recommended". Those words do not mean "not allowed".


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Feb 20, 2007, 12:18 PM
Post #14 of 136 (8050 views)
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi packertom,

I attended their Q & A on Friday morning at the PIA. This is where they were packing a Jav w/SkyHook.

Derek Thomas said that when their new rig comes out (Mar '07 as I recall), meaning the Jav w/SkyHook option, all rigs (with or without the SkyHook) will have an RSL but it will look like a SkyHook equipped rig, i.e., it will use the curved pin attached to the lanyard & the Marine Eye attached to the cable. This will then definitely not allow the RSL to be removed; disconnected yes, but not removed.

I know this does not help with the arguement regarding the older/current Javs.

Jerry


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 20, 2007, 12:35 PM
Post #15 of 136 (8039 views)
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

What's the background on this whole recommendation from Sun Path? Most rigs are used just fine with or without an RSL.

Do the owners just personally like RSL's a whole lot?
Is there some particular fear of a lawsuit if they don't make an RSL available?
Or do they just dislike it when someone removes the RSL without doing anything else, leaving the hook velcro to chew up the opposite reserve riser? As a rigger I dislike that too...


ripcord4  (D 2238)

Feb 20, 2007, 1:20 PM
Post #16 of 136 (8016 views)
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

What's the big problem here about removing the RSL? If you don't like/want the RSL, just disconnect the damn thing - you don't have to remove it and you avoid the potential TSO question.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 1:27 PM
Post #17 of 136 (8009 views)
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Re: [ripcord4] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What's the big problem here about removing the RSL? If you don't like/want the RSL, just disconnect the damn thing - you don't have to remove it and you avoid the potential TSO question.

If a person has already removed it, then it is a big deal because it must be reinstalled, replacement parts may have to be bought.


klingeme  (D 24728)

Feb 20, 2007, 1:38 PM
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

This sounds like a major problem for the riggers that are "Offically observing" all the packers on the packing floor, who are packing direcly under their ticket. So even if you know not to pack this, is Mr or Ms. I pack for $5 a head and don't have anything to offically loose going to know not to pack these rigs? if not there could be a lot of riggers loosing their tickets.

Just my 2 cents,
Mark Klingelhoefer


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Feb 20, 2007, 1:41 PM
Post #19 of 136 (8000 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
If the "approved configuration" part of their statement was important to this discussion, then they should not have left it open with "highly discouraged" and "not recommended". Those words do not mean "not allowed".

I understand what your saying. I'm just trying to offer the other side of the story. If somebody bounced and the FAA started to really dig deep on the issue and found out that a component that was there during the TSO approval was no longer present....I wouldn't want my name on that card.


(This post was edited by divnswoop on Feb 20, 2007, 1:43 PM)


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 2:10 PM
Post #20 of 136 (7981 views)
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Re: [billvon] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I'd still like to see Sunpath state something more firmly on this topic.

Give em a call. They're doing a manual rewrite soon; perhaps if they get enough phone calls they will change the text.

True enough.

Help me help you.

Can you cast any more light and details on the comment you made up-thread about the FAA's ruling on the subject... etc... and... etc.... the FAA officially repremanding a rigger who packed a Jav with the RSL removed?

I'm willing to write a letter to Sunpath saying they need to clarify their wording on this subject and I'd like to reference the incident / official ruling you speak of.


(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Feb 20, 2007, 2:12 PM)


skydivejunky  (D 22209)

Feb 20, 2007, 2:58 PM
Post #21 of 136 (7952 views)
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did all Javelins come with RSLs ? I've seen some that didn't have the velcro on the riser, or the rings on the top reserve flap. Did all the ones set up for RSLs come with one? Even if the owner didn't want it?

The Javelins that didn't come set up for RSLs aren't any different then the ones that came set up?

How do you know which ones are which?

John


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 20, 2007, 4:42 PM
Post #22 of 136 (7912 views)
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Re: [skydivejunky] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...How do you know which ones are which?...

Worth asking again....

Anyone?


fcajump  (D 15598)

Feb 20, 2007, 5:05 PM
Post #23 of 136 (7896 views)
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Re: [skydivejunky] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Did all Javelins come with RSLs ? I've seen some that didn't have the velcro on the riser, or the rings on the top reserve flap. Did all the ones set up for RSLs come with one? Even if the owner didn't want it?

The Javelins that didn't come set up for RSLs aren't any different then the ones that came set up?

How do you know which ones are which?

John

No. Not all came with an RSL, but I understand from Sunpath that they became standard (no option) quite a few years ago. This came up during a discussion about adding one to a 1989 rig that had never had one.

At the time, I understood their verbal position to be it was against the TSO to pack it without it in place IFF it was originally manufactured with one. (Jan 2006)

JW


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 20, 2007, 5:05 PM
Post #24 of 136 (7894 views)
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Re: [packertom] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I was told at the PIA is that the "permanently removed" that sunpath was unhappy with was people removing the rsl rings that the reserve ripcord must go through. That is permanent, as it was explained to me.

But.....

They also said that it was tested with the rsl and that is how it SHOULD remain.

Very wishy washy if you ask me.

Keep the rsl on if you want to cover your ass.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 5:42 PM
Post #25 of 136 (7873 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Javelin RSL.. unairworthy or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They also said that it was tested with the rsl and that is how it SHOULD remain.

Very wishy washy if you ask me.

Should is not the same as must, so it is only wishy washy in that they want it to happen without it being required, however, there is the reported case of a rigger being reprimanded by the FAA...


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