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100 jump wonders/coaches

 

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jdthomas  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 1:24 PM
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100 jump wonders/coaches Can't Post

 
this past weekend I traveld to a DZ that i had not been to for some time now and I was shocked at the lack of safety within the system.
While there a USPA coach was about to board a plane when i noticed that his main closing pin was exposed, so exposed that his main flap was actually covering his closing loop and not his pin!
I called him out on this and he seemd to not care at all. I informed him of the safety aspect of it and the risk of a mal and perhaps a premie while on climb out and thus risking evryone on the plane and still there was apathy.
Another instructor at the DZ told the jumper to fix the problem as they had plenty of time to do so and this jumper was still not going to fix it. he brushed off the comments, boarded the aircraft with other jumpers who also saw this problem.
the jumper with the exposed closing pin is a coach, the other jumpers on that load included one other rigger, another instructor and a jumper with thousands of jumps and none of them seemed to care that they where placed in danger thru the lack of inaction of this jumper.
His jump with off with no problems and when he landed he shortend the loop one and a half inches!
Here is where it gets better, when I arrived at teh dz I gave out a bag of closing loops that i had just made, maybe 40-50 closing loops and told everyone to help themselves as to stay safe by changing these often.
Why do people not care? what kind of example is this coach showing to students and is he letting student slide by on margins? I hope not.
I am not out to get all the USPA coaches but this is a prime example of the 100 jump wonder at work, this system is breeding stupidity into the system.
Joe


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Feb 20, 2007, 1:38 PM
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand how this can make it appear that people who have just become coaches after 100 jumps feel as though they can afford to cut corners. I really believe that it is heavily dependent on who the person is. I plan on taking the coach course as soon as I can. I want to help out the club that I jump at. I also believe that since it wasn't too long ago I was in training I can give students a perspective that few instructors can because of how long it has been since they started jumping. I take safety very seriously. I hope to convey that to students when I become a coach. You can be safety conscious and still have fun. It hurts me to hear about a problem like this because it not only can hurt the people around that type of jumper and himself but it also can hurt people like me who are trying to help in getting jumpers into the sport safely but are losing respect due to this kind of behavior.


tdog  (D 28800)

Feb 20, 2007, 2:21 PM
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

This has EVERYTHING to do with the jumper and NOTHING to do with the coach rating...

I know of more than one 100 jump wonder coaches, who have tunnel time, and are great motivated people I would trust with any student.

I also know of a few 8,000 jump wonder coaches who suck.

P.S. I like your closing loop idea. I think I am going to sit at home and make closing loops when I would otherwise be picking my nose and watching TV... That is so cool.


MagicGuy  (D 30470)

Feb 20, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

While I totally understand what you're saying about the person in question and I absolutely agree with you that this is a safety issue and the person should not have just brushed it off as no big deal, I don't think it is fair to label people 100 jumps, coach or no coach rating.

I'm enrolled in a Skydive U Level 1 coach course in May. At this point, I have 126 jumps and I will probably have closer to 200 come time for the course. BUT, unlike the person in question, if this had happened to me, (which I hope it wouldn't as I give myself, and ask for, a million gear checks, but anything is possible) I would have taken action to fix it. Not only is it putting myself at risk but it's putting other lives, including the student, at risk.

As for people with 100 jumps being able to be a coach.. well, that's debatable. Someone who has 100 jumps over the course of a few years IS a lot different than someone with 100 jumps over a short period of time. I have done my 126 jumps since late July of 2006. I like to consider myself as being very current. Does that mean I will be of significant help to a student in the air? Well, jump with me than you tell me. If I pass the Coach Course than I would say that would be a yes.

My reasons for wanting a coach rating are different than some people. I could care less about making money by doing coaching jumps. In fact it's almost the opposite. I'd like to be able to jump with someone that's close to being A Licensed that doesn't feel like doing another 4 solos. I'd like to be able to give nearly A Licensed students advice, and feel like I'm qualified to do so. I'd like to jump with a nervous student, maybe someone who's having trouble staying stable, in hopes to get them relaxed so they can get some REAL coaching. Oh and I want to become an AFF Instructor, so this should give me a taste of what it's like to teach people, and is the first step towards that goal.

Anyways, there's my $.02. Agree if you want, argue if you want, it doesn't really matter to me. But in a case like this I think it's different from person to person.


csbrady  (B 29403)

Feb 20, 2007, 4:07 PM
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Re: [MagicGuy] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitly agree with this one. a person with a hundred jumps over a few years is pretty uncurrent. I really want to get my coach's rating because it just opens up a new door to skydiving. I did my first tandem on july 22nd, 2006. since then ive made 146 jumps and ive been through Jim Crouch's canopy course and im about to go through Brian Germain's. Im pretty sure i can say that im current and i know i can take what ive learned and be able to teach it to someone who just came into the sport.

Thats where i stand on this one.

Blues


DougH  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 4:23 PM
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

What does this have to do with the system?

I may have a big mouth and like to talk about skydiving a lot, I will admit that I can be a loud mouth 100 jump wonder.

But when people with more experince talk, I shut up and listen.

And when it comes to the saftey of my gear I don't screw around either.

This system taught me well? It sounds like this guy is just an idiot! Shocked


jdthomas  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 4:50 PM
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Re: [DougH] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What does this have to do with the system?

I may have a big mouth and like to talk about skydiving a lot, I will admit that I can be a loud mouth 100 jump wonder.

But when people with more experince talk, I shut up and listen.

And when it comes to the saftey of my gear I don't screw around either.

This system taught me well? It sounds like this guy is just an idiot! Shocked

in my humble opinion the system is flawed in the fact that many jumpers like this one at not gaining any new information. Some dz's do not progress.. not to say this place does not but it seems to have it's own way of doing things.
many jumpers just go with what they learned in first jump class and call it good.. they pick up little things here and there but are some times rare to expand on that.
DZ.com for all it;s flaws is a great place to learn and many jumpers never log into this place because it can seem to be over whelming at times.
As well many jumpers only ready the USPA rag and have no knowledge of other skydiving related publications in wich to learn from.
I for one will admit that when i had 100 jumps i thought i knew alot and only after leaving my home dz did realize that I knew very little. thru my travels and desire I have taken in alot and still try each day to learn more.. It is not a far stretch to say that many 100 jump jumpers don't have perfected enough skills to teach.. you don't usally find guys with 100 jumps teaching training camps or on big way formations.
Joe


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Feb 20, 2007, 5:01 PM
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I for one will admit that when i had 100 jumps i thought i knew alot and only after leaving my home dz did realize that I knew very little.

It's funny you said this. There was a guy at our DZ with a coaches' rating and 100 jumps. We got into an arguement as to whether or not 100 jumps was enough for a coach rating. I had over 250 jumps at the time and was just going through the coaches' course, finally feeling like I knew enough to help a newer jumper. This guy was pretty pissed at me for thinking that a 100 jump wonder probably didn't have the experience to be a coach.

The same guy now is pushing 400 jumps and was telling me that 100 jumps isn't enough for a coaches' rating Wink

Jen


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 20, 2007, 5:23 PM
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Re: [peregrinerose] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I for one will admit that when i had 100 jumps i thought i knew alot and only after leaving my home dz did realize that I knew very little.

It's funny you said this. There was a guy at our DZ with a coaches' rating and 100 jumps. We got into an arguement as to whether or not 100 jumps was enough for a coach rating. I had over 250 jumps at the time and was just going through the coaches' course, finally feeling like I knew enough to help a newer jumper. This guy was pretty pissed at me for thinking that a 100 jump wonder probably didn't have the experience to be a coach.

The same guy now is pushing 400 jumps and was telling me that 100 jumps isn't enough for a coaches' rating Wink

Jen

I completely agree. Didn't go for a coach rating at 100 jumps, because after spending a weekend at a large DZ last spring...I realized how lost I was (still am).
Jen, it was nice meeting you at Eloy last weekend!


jdthomas  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 6:57 PM
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Re: [peregrinerose] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I for one will admit that when i had 100 jumps i thought i knew alot and only after leaving my home dz did realize that I knew very little.

It's funny you said this. There was a guy at our DZ with a coaches' rating and 100 jumps. We got into an arguement as to whether or not 100 jumps was enough for a coach rating. I had over 250 jumps at the time and was just going through the coaches' course, finally feeling like I knew enough to help a newer jumper. This guy was pretty pissed at me for thinking that a 100 jump wonder probably didn't have the experience to be a coach.

The same guy now is pushing 400 jumps and was telling me that 100 jumps isn't enough for a coaches' rating Wink

Jen

jen
the funny thing is that when i had 100 jumps or so I went to a new dz to speard my wings and the owner of that dz asked me some questions and asked me to take a small written test.. no problem i thought.
Well lets say that I was invited to have a chat with the owner and attend his first jump course for free..
i was suprised at the information that i was getting and should have known already but did not.
I missed out on alot thru the shelter of my little DZ and when I finally moved on it was a very eye opening experience.
joe


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 20, 2007, 8:38 PM
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree the systme is flawed, and instructional ratings are far to easy to obtain now.


PeterB  (D 777777)

Feb 20, 2007, 9:28 PM
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Re: [peregrinerose] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

100 jumps ain't shit. Have barely touched skydiving then

At 500 I was still a n00b even though I didn't think so.

At 1000 I realized that the people with the same number of jumps I considered really experienced weren't. They suck just as much as I do.

Seriously, 100 jumps and a coach? That's like a one eyed dude with thick glasses leading the blind.


lilchief  (D 78149)

Feb 21, 2007, 4:53 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

We might be strict here in Norway, but to achieve the first instructor rating(allowing the holder of the license to jumpmaster SL students and AFF on level 8) you need to be a C license holder(requires 200 jumps and 1 hour of FF time at least and had have been a solojumper for 1 year), participated as an assistant instructor on: 3 "basic course 1 Static line" courses and 2 "basic course 2 freefall" courses

In addition to this you need to be considered by the Chief instructor in the club as fit for the responsibility.

Could someone fill me in on what are the requirements to achieve instructor rating at the 100 jump level, and what he/she are capable of doing?

edit: I just read that you can be a coach after 100 jumps, not an instructor. Sorry about thatPirate. But does it mean that he/she can teach/instruct/jumpmaster students?


(This post was edited by lilchief on Feb 21, 2007, 4:56 AM)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 21, 2007, 4:58 AM
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Re: [lilchief] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could someone fill me in on what are the requirements to achieve instructor rating at the 100 jump level, and what he/she are capable of doing?
Notice the difference between an istructor and a coach.


lilchief  (D 78149)

Feb 21, 2007, 5:04 AM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

curses! I wasn't quick enough!

darn.. Smile

I edited it 1 min before you posted.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Feb 21, 2007, 5:50 AM
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Re: [lilchief] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

BTW Is teaching someone how to pack coaching?

I have seen and done teaching packing for new jumpers as a student.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 7:35 AM
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Re: [PeterB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

100 jumps and a coach? That's like a one eyed dude with thick glasses leading the blind.


In reply to:

I'm Stealin' THAT Line! Wink


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Feb 21, 2007, 7:58 AM
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Re: [PeterB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
100 jumps ain't shit. Have barely touched skydiving then

At 500 I was still a n00b even though I didn't think so.

At 1000 I realized that the people with the same number of jumps I considered really experienced weren't. They suck just as much as I do.

I agree with all of this. I know this is a bit of a deviation from the original thread, but at what point is a person considered 'ready' to be an AFF instructor? It's next on my 'to do' list. At 425 jumps, I fly ok, have been told I'm a good teacher, but I don't feel like I've been around skydiving long enough (2.5 years) or have truly experienced enough to be a good instructor. How do I know if I'm ready or not? The people I've asked all say to go for it, but I've also noticed that people give the feel good answers face to face and often talk shit about the same jumper behind their back.

There's no chance of me going for AFF before winter... my debate is whether to go this winter or wait an extra year.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Feb 21, 2007, 8:01 AM
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Re: [DSE] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Jen, it was nice meeting you at Eloy last weekend!

Thanks! It was nice meeting you as well... It's nice putting faces to the DZ.com names. I wish we actually had some time to talk... I'm just starting to get video gear together, it would have been nice to pick your brain. All of us had a great time in Eloy... we'll be back next February!


upndownshop  (D 23924)

Feb 21, 2007, 8:55 AM
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Re: [jdthomas] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Why not just lower the rating requirements to 10 jumps?Crazy

Obviously the rating does not care about experience levels?

Why I may not be able to swoop my canopy like some with 500 jumps, I do have something that can take years to obtain. Experience.

Been in the sport all of my life so I have seen alot, one does not have to have alot of jumps to gain the "experience" either, of course it helps.

I agree with you Joe.
We are not considered expert skydivers until we obtain a D license, and what that takes 500 now? Huummm yet we will let a 100 jump wonder train our newbies....
This is not to offend the 100 jump wonders, its not your fault.
And some of you may know I am all about the newbie and safety, SkyFest proves that, but lets get real.
Ok bash away at meFrownSmile


DougH  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 9:55 AM
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Re: [upndownshop] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

Devils advocate...

Why do you need to have 1000 jumps in order to teach things like exit seperation, proper gear checks, replacing you closing loop, conservative canopy advice, feet out, and so forth?


What is better for the student?

Having no one to jump with at jump 14 because the instructors are all busy doing AFF or hauling meat,

Having some one with 150 jumps and a coach who may lack experince, but can provide a stable base who can fall down the tube for the student.


upndownshop  (D 23924)

Feb 21, 2007, 10:16 AM
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Re: [DougH] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Devils advocate...

Why do you need to have 1000 jumps in order to teach things like exit seperation, proper gear checks, replacing you closing loop, conservative canopy advice, feet out, and so forth?


What is better for the student?

Having no one to jump with at jump 14 because the instructors are all busy doing AFF or hauling meat,

Having some one with 150 jumps and a coach who may lack experince, but can provide a stable base who can fall down the tube for the student.


Good points, I am not saying that they cant. All I am saying is that there are so many things that can happen when you put two newbies (and yes 100 jumps is a newbie) together that experience may save lives.

I have had a coaches rating for years, never used it never got paid never asked. Had my slot paid for once. My father did the same for 41 years, thus explaining why I started the SkyFest event and the Skydiving Scholarship Fund. I am all about sharing info. for the better. But two newbies can get you in trouble. I for one have been there.
Again, this is not an attack on newbies, maybe one on the program, but I dont have the answer. I just keep jumping with the new ones cause I like it. I learn something almost everytime.Smile

Guess you havent jumped the hornet yet?Smile


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Feb 21, 2007, 10:29 AM
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Re: [PeterB] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

>Seriously, 100 jumps and a coach? That's like a one eyed dude with
>thick glasses leading the blind.

Well, it is better than no one leading the blind.

There's a big gap in training nowadays between graduation from AFF and being experienced enough to do organized loads. Some places fill that gap with the ISP, others have more informal coaching methods. Having a 100 jump person teaching someone with 7 jumps is not as good as a 3000 jump AFF instructor or 4-way organizer, but it's a lot better than the 7 jump guy jumping by himself for the next 20 jumps - and it's also better than the 7 jump guy getting together with his other sub-10-jump buddies and trying to do a 3-way.

In a way, the coach rating is a way to control the sometimes-chaos that happens after graduation. Some experienced jumpers jump with the newbies, and that usually works OK. Sometimes you get a guy with 10,000 jumps who just gives plain bad advice, advice that works for him and his background of belly reserves and balloon suits, but it's not very applicable today. Other times you get very new jumpers who simply don't have the experience to jump with recent AFF grads. And often you get good people jumping with the newbies, people willing to teach what they know and help the newer jumpers along (and with enough experience to jump with them safely.) The coach rating (to me) is a way to formalize that a bit.

Everyone is saying "100 jumps is nothing!" and compared to most of us that's correct. But compared to that guy with 7 jumps, that's a shitload of jumps. I had my JM rating shortly after I had 100 jumps and was teaching students how to freefall. Did I know what I was doing? Well, I knew enough to pass on the USPA syllabus; my students tended to do OK. Was I as good as, say, Mick Cottle, who was teaching at Perris at the time? Nowhere near. But I was good enough.

Likewise, I think many of these "100 jump wonders" are good enough to teach some basic survival/freefall skills to AFF grads. I put that in quotes because the only people I consider "100 jump wonders" are people who think they know a lot more than they do, and most coaches I know aren't like that.


DougH  (D License)

Feb 21, 2007, 10:55 AM
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Re: [upndownshop] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Guess you havent jumped the hornet yet?Smile

Not yet, I have been waiting for the IRS to hurry up with my tax refund so I can buy some risers for it. Laugh


jheadley  (D 28710)

Feb 21, 2007, 12:42 PM
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Re: [billvon] 100 jump wonders/coaches [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's mostly ok for people with 100 jumps to get a coach rating, as long as all of their training of students is closely supervised by instructors. That's the way it's supposed to be, but some coaches just get their rating and are just turned loose on students without any supervision. This is how I was (got my coach rating at 120 jumps), and I suffered from it. I kept wondering why all my students sucked so badly... because I didn't teach them well. I don't think I became a good coach until 2 years later, when I worked with a lot of instructors to improve my teaching method, which I still do at every opportunity. Every time I do any coach or AFF jump, I usually write more in my own logbook than my student's, critiquing my own performance, finding things for me to improve on.

I'd rather have an eager, motivated 100 jump coach teach a student than some 500 jump wonder who just wants the rating for the money, or bragging rights.


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