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Barrel roll during track?

 

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Poll: Barrel roll during track?
Yes - usually a good idea 54 / 28%
No - usually a bad idea 115 / 61%
Other - explain 21 / 11%
190 total votes
 
Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 15, 2007, 2:42 PM
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Barrel roll during track? Can't Post

This occasional debate was regenerated in the Incidents thread about the recent freefall-into-canopy collision at Titusville.

So what do you think? Barrel roll while tracking for a better view above you, or stay on your belly during the whole track?


beowulf  (C License)

Feb 15, 2007, 2:47 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

That would depend on your proficiency at barrel rolls.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 15, 2007, 2:51 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't do it ever, but I don't think it's a bad idea so long as you don't fuck around on your back and continue the BR until you are back on your belly. The reason we wave off is to give people above us "fair warning." If you are concerned that you are going to have people above you at opening, then perhaps you need to break off higher and/or work on your tracking technique. The only people that "get rained on" are the people who suck at tracking or simply don't track long enough. It's a survival skill that you ought to be practicing on every single skydive.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Feb 15, 2007, 3:00 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Only in the rare case of a zoo dive where I don't have everyone accounted for at the planned breakoff time. If we've planned those right, breakoff is high and I can track like a mofo and STILL have time to barrel roll.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Feb 15, 2007, 3:01 PM)


MakeItHappen

Feb 15, 2007, 3:17 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This occasional debate was regenerated in the Incidents thread about the recent freefall-into-canopy collision at Titusville.

So what do you think? Barrel roll while tracking for a better view above you, or stay on your belly during the whole track?

I don't know why this lesson has to be taught over and over again for each new generation of jumpers.

FF-FF collisions or FF-Canopy collisions happen because the high person ran into the low person.

That means that the high person MUST look where they are going more often than where they have been.

A driving analogy to this scheme of BR during track off is similar to checking all your mirrors before hitting the brakes. Do you know any drivers that do that?
There might be some that check the rear view mirror while applying brakes if they have to slam the brakes on and have a bit of space in front of them to avoid being rear-ended.

If you talk to survivors of collisions, the high person will invariably say that they were NOT looking where they were going and ran into someone.

The strange logic that if you look more at where you have been means you are safer is poppycock. The time you spend doing that means less time looking where you are going. Next thing ya know, you are the high person crashing into the low person.

In regards to the specific incident you refer to, it is my understanding that the low person was on his back until he turned face to earth to pull. According to the illogic of BR during track off, the low person should have seen the high person. That did not happen, even though the low person was on his back for an extended amount of time.

However, if both people were looking where they were going, the high person could have seen the low person.

I know from personal experience on many bigways, including more than 500 jumps of +100-ways, that the safer bet is to look where you are going, at nearest neighbors and avoid being over someone else. You do a wave-off and glance above as a precautionary measure. The primary collision avoidance is watching where you are going.

A couple of years ago I saw a video of a freeflyer that back-tracked away from a formation (small one). As he turned face to earth he was on top of another person from the same load. They barely missed each other.

Watch where you are going is the safer bet.

.


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 15, 2007, 4:09 PM
Post #6 of 203 (5222 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Barrel roll during tracking before pulling? If some one tracks bellow you and pulls while your are rolling, you could hit him/er.


D22369  (D 22369)

Feb 15, 2007, 4:59 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have used the barrel roll on large formation skydives and I find it to work quite well. I would track to 2.5k, barrel roll- wave-toss. I rarely do any jumps that scare me enough to feel the need to use it anymore though.


Roy


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 15, 2007, 5:20 PM
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...I don't know why this lesson has to be taught over and over again for each new generation of jumpers.

Answered your own question, there.


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Feb 15, 2007, 5:31 PM
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
This occasional debate was regenerated in the Incidents thread about the recent freefall-into-canopy collision at Titusville.

So what do you think? Barrel roll while tracking for a better view above you, or stay on your belly during the whole track?

I don't know why this lesson has to be taught over and over again for each new generation of jumpers.

FF-FF collisions or FF-Canopy collisions happen because the high person ran into the low person.

That means that the high person MUST look where they are going more often than where they have been.

A driving analogy to this scheme of BR during track off is similar to checking all your mirrors before hitting the brakes. Do you know any drivers that do that?
There might be some that check the rear view mirror while applying brakes if they have to slam the brakes on and have a bit of space in front of them to avoid being rear-ended.

If you talk to survivors of collisions, the high person will invariably say that they were NOT looking where they were going and ran into someone.

The strange logic that if you look more at where you have been means you are safer is poppycock. The time you spend doing that means less time looking where you are going. Next thing ya know, you are the high person crashing into the low person.

In regards to the specific incident you refer to, it is my understanding that the low person was on his back until he turned face to earth to pull. According to the illogic of BR during track off, the low person should have seen the high person. That did not happen, even though the low person was on his back for an extended amount of time.

However, if both people were looking where they were going, the high person could have seen the low person.

I know from personal experience on many bigways, including more than 500 jumps of +100-ways, that the safer bet is to look where you are going, at nearest neighbors and avoid being over someone else. You do a wave-off and glance above as a precautionary measure. The primary collision avoidance is watching where you are going.

A couple of years ago I saw a video of a freeflyer that back-tracked away from a formation (small one). As he turned face to earth he was on top of another person from the same load. They barely missed each other.

Watch where you are going is the safer bet.

.











Amen! I always hear this barrel-roll BS from free-fliers....Unimpressed

Usually they nest it in w/ the idea of faster fall rates and peeling away from 'their' formation.

"oh, yeah... just do a barrel roll and clear your airspace before you pitch..."

Huh?!?Unsure

So... I am counting on the 'ants in the pants' free-fliers who are yelling "Go! Go! Go!" when the green light comes on for an appropriate separation...?!? and they are doing a barrel-roll for their track off?


D22369  (D 22369)

Feb 15, 2007, 7:03 PM
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

unless I missed the point of the post, we are not talking about back tracking, we are talking about tracking away from a formation and instead of sitting up and glancing over each shoulder as we wave, we instead perform a quick barrel roll to see above us....

i can perform that in less than a second and stay on heading, as I come out of the barrel roll, I am cupping air and waving off.


Roy


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Feb 15, 2007, 7:40 PM
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Re: [D22369] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In an perfect world this would not be an issue.
If you have others to your "front" and you loose sight of them during the barrel roll, now your the hazard.

IMO Barrel rolls are freefall maneuvers, not break off and track for separation maneuvers.

Matt


skr  (D 981)

Feb 15, 2007, 8:25 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it makes more sense for everybody
to watch where they are going.

I look down in a wide angle cone to keep
from getting over anyone, with peripheral
glances sideways in case I'm converging
with someone.

Skr


D22369  (D 22369)

Feb 15, 2007, 8:53 PM
Post #13 of 203 (5029 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have others to your "front" and you loose sight of them during the barrel roll, now your the hazard
Quote:

when you look over your shoulder to clear your air, you lose sight of them also. it takes me no more time to barrel roll than it does you to look left and right over your shoulders.

a barrel roll done well at the end of a track is IMO more likely to catch that jumper in your blind spot, above and slightly behind you but still very much a threat

Roy


ebusto  (C 38493)

Feb 15, 2007, 11:27 PM
Post #14 of 203 (4970 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm surprised that most people voted that doing a barrel roll is a bad idea.

When tracking away on your belly, you can only see below you and to the side. Unless you can turn your head like an owl, you still have a blind spot above you. In that blind spot may be someone who has spaced out and wouldn't notice if you wave. You can either take that chance, or you can take the half of a second to do a barrel roll and check your blind spot. When on your back, your field of vision is much larger than in each individual glance over your shoulders.

Ideally you have looked far enough ahead and behind you while on your belly to know who you may overtake or who may overtake you when you briefly switch to your back, although presumably you won't stop tracking when on your back.


yoink

Feb 16, 2007, 1:17 AM
Post #15 of 203 (4933 views)
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Re: [ebusto] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that for a majority of skydivers, particularly those with limited experience, the time spent barrel rolling would be better spent continuing a max track.

Having said that, I'm not convinced a lot of skydivers know what that is. There's some really lazy tracking out there.


Unsure


pkasdorf  (D 40)

Feb 16, 2007, 1:19 AM
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Re: [beowulf] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That would depend on your proficiency at barrel rolls.

That's why I didn't vote. No such option.


wildcard451  (D License)

Feb 16, 2007, 5:38 AM
Post #17 of 203 (4842 views)
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Re: [pkasdorf] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

As everyone says, It's usually the high person not looking and hitting the low person..

Quite frankly, I don't want to take that chance, and have had to, on more than one occasion, alter the course of my track depending on what I saw above me when I rolled.

Is this skill needed on 4 way? Not likely.

bigger belly ways? hopefully everyone is near the same lvl in the same area so not usually likely.

Bigger FF ways (5+)? Depending on the skill lvl, there can be a lot of lvl issues, and you may not always be able to count everyone before you take off. So more useful here.

The most useful place I have found a good barrel roll in a track to be is on larger (20+, or multiplane) tracking dives. Breakoff, despite a good briefing, can be chaotic, and since you are already tracking, clearing your airspace completely isn't all that bad of an idea.
Then again, if you are on a multi-plane track, you should have the skills to make that barrel roll with very little effort, and with minimal loss of control and altitude.

Do I still do it on every jump with other people? Yeah, because it really doesn't affect my tracking that much, and I can look around at everything. I can see people below me as I track on my belly, and can clear most visible threats on a roll.

But that's just me.

It scares me that people don't look above them.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 16, 2007, 5:44 AM
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I know from personal experience on many bigways, including more than 500 jumps of +100-ways, that the safer bet is to look where you are going


Not like that makes you an expert or anything, but I was wondering, how many jumpers on those bigways at brake off turn 180 and track off then BR just before dumping. For that matter I recall seeing a video from the 400 way, you have to look close to see it, but every single skydiver on that jump did a BR during the break off, I heard it was a manditory in order to be on that jump, one must be a good at tracking barrel rolls or no invite. You must suck real bad at TBR's, isn't that why you didn't get slot on the 400 way?.Tongue

And people wonder why I might pull so low.


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 16, 2007, 7:55 AM
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Re: [skr] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it makes more sense for everybody
to watch where they are going.

I agree! Besides, there are better ways to see what is over you


kallend  (D 23151)

Feb 16, 2007, 8:10 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Concerning the comments about freefliers: was barrel rolling advised during break-off from the vertical world record 53 way? Do the best freefliers do it?

It seems a bad idea to me for belly flying. Improving tracking skills would be a far better way to reduce risk.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 16, 2007, 9:01 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

I barrel roll when i am done tracking, when I would put on the breaks, I roll and glance at the air above meand stop the track completely when i am back on my belly and then wave.

I personally just like it better than the looks left and right over my shoulders. It doesn't effect my tracking distance, cause that is what is most important. In the end it is the high man's responsibility to be aware that you are pulling. But in my skydiving, I try to leave the least up to chance as possible, if I can take the respoinibility upon myself, I usually try to. But thats just me.


wildcard451  (D License)

Feb 16, 2007, 9:29 AM
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Re: [aguila] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think it makes more sense for everybody
to watch where they are going.

I agree! Besides, there are better ways to see what is over you

How do you see above you without looking above you?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 16, 2007, 9:56 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're the fastest flattest tracker out there; why would you need to look for others over you?


aguila  (B 1009)

Feb 16, 2007, 12:09 PM
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Re: [wildcard451] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I think it makes more sense for everybody
to watch where they are going.

I agree! Besides, there are better ways to see what is over you

How do you see above you without looking above you?

with a wide angle wrist mirror. It is safer .


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 16, 2007, 1:32 PM
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Re: [kallend] Barrel roll during track? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do the best freefliers do it?

Yes they do. Not all but many do.

During big way head down dives for instance. They break off in stages just like belly big ways.

The outside turns 180 to face outward and moves to track away on their backs. Soon after roll over and belly track away. Then the next group and so on. Many barrel roll at the end and many do not.
---------

For most of the dives I do now adays, it simply depends on if there is a reason I may be concerned about what might be above me.


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