Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Magnetic Riser Covers

 

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gontleman

Feb 10, 2007, 10:22 PM
Post #1 of 70 (5988 views)
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Magnetic Riser Covers Can't Post

Watching the PIA video with Bill Booth it would seem that the biggest improvement he showed off was the magnetic riser covers. My question is two-fold.

When could we expect something like that to become the next "standard"?

Would it be conceivable to retrofit rigs without them?


Squeak  (E 1313)

Feb 10, 2007, 10:23 PM
Post #2 of 70 (5960 views)
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Re: [gontleman] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSVRSIicQDk


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 10, 2007, 10:27 PM
Post #3 of 70 (5949 views)
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Re: [gontleman] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill said it was not possible (or maybe he said "unlikely") to retrofit.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 10, 2007, 11:17 PM
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Re: [DSE] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually there is going to be a retrofit available for sigmas.


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 10, 2007, 11:49 PM
Post #5 of 70 (5918 views)
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Re: [gontleman] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When could we expect something like that to become the next "standard"?

When no one can make a riser cover that stays closed.


gontleman

Feb 11, 2007, 12:02 AM
Post #6 of 70 (5912 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
When could we expect something like that to become the next "standard"?

When no one can make a riser cover that stays closed.
Maybe I'm misreading your response.

I'm under the impression that the magnetic covers are to compensate for the problem of riser covers NOT opening.


peckerhead

Feb 11, 2007, 12:20 AM
Post #7 of 70 (5905 views)
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Re: [gontleman] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

It sounds like velcro that doesn't wear out.

Unsure

Most of the new innovations in the last 10 years seem to be a mad rush to accomodate the freeflyers and swoopers that keep inventing new ways to kill themselves.

In days gone by the traditional way to die was because the parachute did not open.

Now, we die AFTER the parachute opens.

Mad






Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Feb 11, 2007, 5:13 AM
Post #8 of 70 (5812 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When no one can make a riser cover that stays closed.

An issue that the magnetic covers also addresses is tuck tab riser covers not coming open properly. Velcro riser covers come open with about 5 lbs of force - tuck tab riser covers, because of their high level of security (on most rigs) can take much more, or - even worse - release asymmetrically.

There is a retrofit kit for the Sigma; I'm not sure about sport or student containers.


RMURRAY

Feb 11, 2007, 5:16 AM
Post #9 of 70 (5811 views)
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Re: [gontleman] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Watching the PIA video with Bill Booth it would seem that the biggest improvement he showed off was the magnetic riser covers. My question is two-fold.

When could we expect something like that to become the next "standard"?

Would it be conceivable to retrofit rigs without them?

RWS licenced the technology so I suppose anyone could. I hope it does become a standard - never liked tuck tabs....

rm


(This post was edited by RMURRAY on Feb 11, 2007, 5:16 AM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Feb 11, 2007, 6:29 AM
Post #10 of 70 (5772 views)
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Re: [gontleman] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would it be conceivable to retrofit rigs without them?

I PM'd Mr. Booth and asked him that question. His reply was that it was possible, but that it wasn't "as clean" as the factory original. He said they were working on making it better.


pilotdave  (D License)

Feb 11, 2007, 7:27 AM
Post #11 of 70 (5733 views)
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Re: [gontleman] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

I left my vector 3 at the UPT rigging shop in deland a couple weeks ago to get the riser covers replaced (which they're doing for free, under warranty, on a 3 year old rig). Had a problem with the stiffener in the riser covers cracking. Anyway, I aksed about getting magnetic riser covers instead and was told it would require building a whole new yoke... not really a viable option.

Dave


tdog  (D 28800)

Feb 11, 2007, 7:35 AM
Post #12 of 70 (5722 views)
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Re: [RMURRAY] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
RWS licenced the technology so I suppose anyone could. I hope it does become a standard - never liked tuck tabs....

rm

Here is the patent
http://appft1.uspto.gov/...;RS=atair+AND+magnet

The "inventor" is Daniel Preston, Atair Aerospace.

The abstract is:

Quote:
A fastening system particularly suited for removably securing a first component of a parachute system to a second component. The fastening system includes a first and at least a second magnetic element secured to the first and second components of the parachute system. At least the first magnetic element is adapted to create a magnetic field that attracts the second magnetic element. In the preferred embodiment, both the first and second create magnetic fields which attract each other and may include permanent magnets or temporary magnets. Alternatively, the magnetic elements may include electromagnets connected to a power source. Optionally, a power controller adjusts the strength of the magnetic force generated by the magnetic elements.


So, it appears that the patent holder patented the idea of using magnets anywhere in a parachute system.

Imagine using a magnet to hold in a hook knife... I just made that up, but it is under the patent... I kind of feel Atair went a little far patenting the use of magnetic force in skydiving equipment instead of patenting a specific design.

This patent appears not to have any of the R&D work. Meaning, it is my understanding Mr. Booth's team had to do all the work, such as testing which magnets are too strong or not strong enough - both for the application, and for side effects such as altering other equipment or avionics of the aircraft.

So, this opens a whole new ethical question in our world... Manufacture #2 comes out. Tears open a RWS rig and gets the spec on the magnets Mr. Booth used. Then they copy the pattern of fabric (at least mostly). Who should the royalties go to??? Well, it appears Atair.

This is why I am a 100% RWS, oops, I mean UPT, fan. Sure, Mr. Booth did not invent everything, but the stuff he did invent seems to be on almost every rig out there today. The problem with other companies patenting blanket ideas in our small market is that it removes the motivation for creative people like Mr. Booth to come up with new ideas if he cannot earn royalties to pay for his R&D and testing... Imagine if someone patented the idea of using "metal rings" in skydiving before Mr. Booth had the three ring idea... It was not the rings, but the design that made them work, that was innovative...

My personal beef.... I honestly don't know (and shouldn't really know) the behind the scene finances and contracts with everyone involved. Atair, if ethical, would share the winnings with Mr. Booth since he made the Atair patent work....

EDIT... P.S. Atair patented the idea of using magnets to hold toggles to risers too, in the fine print, filed in 2006. Part of patent law requires the design not to be implemented by someone else before the patent is filed... Since my Gin Bolero Paraglider had magnetic toggles in 1999, this is not a new idea, and anyone who wishes to implement this in our parachutes, should not have to pay royalties because of previous use and design in the market place...


(This post was edited by tdog on Feb 11, 2007, 7:48 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 11, 2007, 9:59 AM
Post #13 of 70 (5637 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

>When no one can make a riser cover that stays closed.

That's not the problem Bill was trying to solve. Magnetic riser covers:

1) open reliably and easily; this may reduce the incidents of rogue openings that cause injury

2) will re-close themselves if they are accidentally opened (say on exit due to incidental contact)


gontleman

Feb 11, 2007, 10:20 AM
Post #14 of 70 (5616 views)
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Re: [tdog] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as the specs on the magnets go, I believe in the video he flat-out says that they are using 35 gauss magnets or something close to that. Of course... how many it takes to make 5 lbs of pull force is just a matter of seeing one of the rigs with it.


(This post was edited by gontleman on Feb 11, 2007, 3:21 PM)


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Feb 11, 2007, 12:31 PM
Post #15 of 70 (5562 views)
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Re: [peckerhead] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It sounds like Velcro that doesn't wear out.

No so. It will be interesting to see how Bill's new "Magnetic Riser Covers" fair over time. Not that it should surprise someone that rigs need some periodic maintenance from time to time... i.e. Velcro wears out and needs to be replaced... i.e. The plastic in tuck-tabs sometimes cracks and needs to be replaced... permanent magnets can loose their magnetism.


skyblu3  (C 29727)

Feb 11, 2007, 12:48 PM
Post #16 of 70 (5551 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know much about these magnets other than what I saw on the PIA interview video. However, what crosses my mind is the following: imagine an otter load full of jumpers all wearing rigs with magnetic riser covers. How will that affect the avionics, Cypres's, pacemakers, etc.. Mad


Yossarian  (C 105227)

Feb 11, 2007, 1:13 PM
Post #17 of 70 (5538 views)
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Re: [skyblu3] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

cant imagine it'll do the magnetic compass any good, the pilot will wonder why hes always going south! Tongue


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 11, 2007, 1:26 PM
Post #18 of 70 (5530 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

These, I was told by Bill, will not lose their magneism. They are rare earth magnets, not metal ones. They are basically powder held together by epoxy and are said to hold their magnetic power for the life of the magnet.


gontleman

Feb 11, 2007, 1:42 PM
Post #19 of 70 (5524 views)
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Re: [skyblu3] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know much about these magnets other than what I saw on the PIA interview video. However, what crosses my mind is the following: imagine an otter load full of jumpers all wearing rigs with magnetic riser covers. How will that affect the avionics, Cypres's, pacemakers, etc.. Mad

Bill Booth addresses the Cypres concern as well as pacemakers. Supposedly he had the riser covers at a DZ where a man with a pacemaker took them and put them right next to his pacemaker and suffered no ill effects. I forget what all was said regarding the Cypres. If it won't mess with a pacemaker when a guy puts it as close to his as possible... I doubt it will mess with avionics.


(This post was edited by gontleman on Feb 11, 2007, 1:43 PM)


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Feb 11, 2007, 2:44 PM
Post #20 of 70 (5485 views)
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Re: [gontleman] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As far as the specs on the magnets go, I believe in the video he flat-out says that they are using 80 gauss magnets or something close to that. Of course... how many it takes to make 5 lbs of pull force is just a matter of seeing one of the rigs with it.

35 gauss magnets for the covers.Wink

80 gauss: Bill's quote for screwing up a credit card from the Mythbusters.

DSE's quote was 70+ gauss to screw up the tape.


gontleman

Feb 11, 2007, 3:20 PM
Post #21 of 70 (5466 views)
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Re: [Samurai136] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
As far as the specs on the magnets go, I believe in the video he flat-out says that they are using 80 gauss magnets or something close to that. Of course... how many it takes to make 5 lbs of pull force is just a matter of seeing one of the rigs with it.

35 gauss magnets for the covers.Wink

80 gauss: Bill's quote for screwing up a credit card from the Mythbusters.

DSE's quote was 70+ gauss to screw up the tape.
Knew I should have re-watched it as I was typing Cool That was just the number that stuck in my head. Good save Wink


Premier GraficO  (D 16514)

Feb 11, 2007, 3:23 PM
Post #22 of 70 (5460 views)
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Re: [gontleman] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

ok... pacemakers, and AADs aside... what about cameras? High powered magnets like that would erase DV tape faster than greased moose poop.

Can't exactly just leave your camera helmet anywhere near your magnet-rig...

I'm just posing the scneario....Mad


Yossarian  (C 105227)

Feb 11, 2007, 3:40 PM
Post #23 of 70 (5444 views)
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Re: [GraficO] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

to be fair i think mr booth will have thought these things through at some point in the process of r&d. i am intrigued more as to why these side effects dont occur as opposed to worrying if they will


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 11, 2007, 3:47 PM
Post #24 of 70 (5431 views)
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Re: [GraficO] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

Watch the video posted in the PIA Video thread in General Skydiving forum. ===> Here

People may have thought about that one already. :)


Premier GraficO  (D 16514)

Feb 11, 2007, 3:50 PM
Post #25 of 70 (5427 views)
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Re: [Yossarian] Magnetic Riser Covers [In reply to] Can't Post

personally I've never had a problem with tuck tabs and I don't think I would order magnetized riser covers just because they're the new poop. My Infinity rigs have done just fine without them. Bill V's comments about hem self-adhereing in a nudge makes sense... but as a camera guy... I don't even want to think about magnets around my cameras in any configuration.

I saw Bill at PIA and was more intrigued by his yoke-mudflap padding config than his magnets


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