Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Wave off vs 5 5 signal

 


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jul 10, 2001, 7:22 AM
Post #1 of 23 (2114 views)
Shortcut
Wave off vs 5 5 signal Can't Post

Just looking for feedback regarding AFF and the Wave off vs 5 5 signal, and when to incorporate it into the dive. Should we start at level 1 or wait and why?



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jul 10, 2001, 8:21 AM
Post #2 of 23 (2088 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

The 5 5 wave should probally be in the second jump. In the first jump I've seen lots of students brain lock and stare at the atlimeter and the JM has to dump for them. My adding another step to and already complex jump for a first timer, it could serve to just conufuse them. On the other hand, the 5 5 signal shows the student ti totally aware of their altitude. Hard call...

Whoa... That was cool!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 10, 2001, 8:03 PM
Post #3 of 23 (2018 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Progressive Freefall program we start students waving off - during PFF Level 1 - because that is what they will be doing in the long run. Granted, many students forget to wave off on Level 1, but at least they are waving off by the time they finish their fifth level.



Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jul 10, 2001, 8:11 PM
Post #4 of 23 (2016 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

Just relalized a typo in my post... it should say By adding not My. I'm not an AFFJM. But I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night Smile Seriously... I've seen it taught both ways and both ways work.

Whoa... That was cool!


mountainman  (A License)

Jul 10, 2001, 10:52 PM
Post #5 of 23 (1998 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

I just did my AFF Level I jump about two weeks ago and we learned the wave-off. I saw a video of the 5-5 and it just didn't seem like a very good indicator that you are about to pull. I don't know about you, but I'm not watching the fingers of the person a couple hundred feet below me. BUT, if I saw their arms crossing about them, I would suspect something.

Now, true, some people forget to wave off on Level I (my wife, for instance). But hey, she knew right when she pulled that she forgot. She actually gave the pointer finger to the instuctors (the hang signal the instructors give to pull) right before she did. At least she remember to signal SOMETHING before she dumped.

I guess my final thought is that, IMHO, waving off is more effective and not any harder than 5-5 during AFF or anything else, probably.

Our humble corner on the web... <A HREF="http://home.woh.rr.com/brandonandlaura/" target="_new">HERE</A>


lazerq3  (C -34113)

Jul 10, 2001, 11:22 PM
Post #6 of 23 (1995 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I understand is that when I went through my training the 5-5 siganl was to let the instructors know that you knew your altitude and was ready to start your pull sequence. Yes this is not a good signal when jumping with other jumpers however I feel that other jumpers should not be jumping next to or above a student unless he/she is a J/M instructing that student or is aware that it is a student jumper.

jason



PalmettoTiger

Jul 11, 2001, 7:53 AM
Post #7 of 23 (1969 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not an AFFJM. But I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
That reminds me of a book I bought recently. I think it should be sponsored by Holiday Inn Expresses worldwide - sold in the lobby, featured in the commercials, the whole deal!
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811825558/qid=994862460/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/002-5499867-7595232" target="_new">The Worst-Case Scenario Survival Handbook</A>

Everything in there is actually pretty well researched, although after reading the section on "How to survive if your parachute fails to open," I have my doubts if it's really going to help me out. The advice (courtesy of Joe Jennings, BTW) is to signal to a fellow jumper who hasn't pulled yet (problem #1 - a good track will put you too far away to communicate), have them approach you (problem #2 - do you really want to come near me when I have a tangle of bridles and PCs behind me?), and then hook your arms through his/her MLW and hold onto your own chest strap as your new best friend deploys.

But anyway, the book is thorough (they go on to talk about wingloading problems with your impromptu tandem, your landing options, and gear checks to prevent this in the first place). I assume that the rest of the advice is just as well researched (it all makes sense to me), and it's a pretty funny read. Might be a good gag gift for someone who winds up in freaky situations all the time.

Blues, squares,
PTiger

"Beer: the OTHER other white meat."


Grogs  (D 24265)

Jul 11, 2001, 9:13 AM
Post #8 of 23 (1959 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just relalized a typo in my post... it should say By adding not My. I'm not an AFFJM. But I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night Smile Seriously... I've seen it taught both ways and both ways work.
Hehe, that reminds me of a funny story too. A friend of mine was making his *first* skydive as a tandem master with a paying customer. The girl was nervous and kept asking him how many times he'd done it before and he kept answering back 'I've got about 850 skydives' The funniest thing was that when they landed, she told him she was going to come back and do it again, and that she'd ask for him by name because he was 'such an experienced tandem instructor'

As for the wave-off signal, I personally like it. It gives the JM's a little heads up that the guy or girl isn't totally brain locked. They don't always pull just because they wave off, but there's a pretty good chance they will. It also seems to make it a little more unlikely the student will get massively unstable while pulling with a BOC system - the left hand is already up by the head when they go to reach. Finally, I like it because it's something they should get in the habit of doing on every single jump, so why not start right at the beginning. I don't really think it's that much extra to remember. But those are just my opinions. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Wink



chicagoskydiver  (B 24599)

Jul 11, 2001, 10:18 AM
Post #9 of 23 (1952 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Grogs. The wave off isn't really any more to remember than a 5-5 signal, and the wave off is what will always be used throughout their skydiving career, so why not teach it from the very beginning? Why teach something that they're going to abandon after 2 jumps? Might as well teach it from the first tandem.

Hackey


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jul 11, 2001, 11:42 AM
Post #10 of 23 (1939 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that we shouldn't teach something we are going to take away but the problem of stability has been brought up and that the student would become more unstable at pull time with the wave off. Any thoughts on this.

I liked the Holiday Inn comment.



skymedic  (C 33561)

Jul 11, 2001, 11:47 AM
Post #11 of 23 (1936 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

They shouldnt be that unstable on a level 1 or 2 aff considering they have two JM's attached to them(unless they lost one on exit)....

Marc


Michele  (B 26874)

Jul 11, 2001, 12:00 PM
Post #12 of 23 (1934 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

I was not taught the 5 5 signal, just the wave off. And in asking around, that is one of the signals most first timers remember. In my first time in ff, I was overloaded, and only remembered to prct at about 6k and then wave off - very funny vid - all at once (touch, touch, touch, wave pull). My jms were wonderful, and were ready for anything. Which, with me, could have happened....

I like the wave off; but I keep putting my left hand on my head, which makes me spin.

Just my opinion.
ciel bleu-
Michele



chicagoskydiver  (B 24599)

Jul 11, 2001, 1:11 PM
Post #13 of 23 (1927 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

As for the stability issue, there's no way a wave off will cause instability on a tandem, and at for at least the first two student jumps you are in the grasp of at least one jumpmaster. I have a hard time seeing a wave off causing a stability problem there. I started waving off on my AFP level two, but it could have been from the very beginning. Still, it is certainly early enough in the program to have it engrained by the time you get off student status.

Hackey


miked10270  (D 10270)

Jul 11, 2001, 2:30 PM
Post #14 of 23 (1914 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi there,

2 things strike me in this post...

Firstly, Wave off Vs alti wave...

PERSONALLY(!!) I am in favour of teaching "wave-off" ONLY as a direct precursor to deployment (as a warning). While I appreciate that in most AFF programmes this would be done at 5,500' it is surely not meant to convey "Hey guys (&gals)... Guess what... We're at 5,500' AGL"... It's meant to convey to those who may be close & above "I'M GOING TO DEPLOY" (so get out of the way!!!!!).

As the skydiver progresses, qualifys & lowers his deployment height then 5,500' tends to lose significance (except to me... that's usually when I complete the first point of 4-wayLaugh).

In effect, my position is that I expect an air signal to signify something significant (like "break-off" or "deploying NOW") and not as an indicator of a non-significant altitude which I would hope I was aware of anyway.

Mike D10270.



miked10270  (D 10270)

Jul 11, 2001, 2:34 PM
Post #15 of 23 (1913 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh yeah...

Second thing...

P-Tiger. If you're worries about surviving "the worst, then check out http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/103/freefall/

Mike D10270.



PhillyKev

Jul 11, 2001, 7:39 PM
Post #16 of 23 (1896 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, MikeD....your link goes to a page that gives you the following error..

In reply to:
The Page You Requested Barely Even Exists

Possible Causes For This Error:

Poor spelling
Lack of basic typing skills
General incompetence
Bad luck
Ancient curse
Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle
HTTP/1.0 404 "Object does not exist" — Sartre (1945)
While that's pretty funny, don't think it's what you were going for Smile

cielos azules y cerveza fría

-Kevin


miked10270  (D 10270)

Jul 12, 2001, 3:27 PM
Post #17 of 23 (1854 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Philly (Why have you chosen a username referring to a popular -in the (Y)UK- brand of over-processed soft cheese?),

Yeah... I pasted the link over from Modern Humorist - what a bunch of witty $hits they are!!

I suppose I'll just have to paste the article itself, so here goes:

"Admit it: You want to survive an airline disaster. You aren't looking for a disaster to happen, but if it does, you see yourself coming through it. The good news is that you're not out of touch with reality—you can do it. Sure, you'll take a few hits, and you can count on some sweaty flashbacks later, but you'll make it. You'll sit up in your hospital bed and meet the press. If you are considerate, you will keep God out of your public comments, knowing that it's unfair to sing His praises when many of your fellow passengers lack the means to offer an alternative view.

Let's say your jet blows apart at 35,000 feet. You exit the aircraft and begin to descend independently. Now what?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two Obstacles: Height and Acceleration
First of all, you're starting off a full mile higher than Everest, so after a few gulps of disappointing air you're going to black out. This is not a bad thing. View it as a brief respite from the ambient fear and chaos. At about 15,000 feet, you’ll come to and begin the final phase of your descent, which will last about a minute. This is a time of planning and preparation. Look around you. What equipment is available? Look carefully. Perhaps a shipment of folded parachutes was in the cargo hold, and the blast opened the box and scattered them. One of these just might be within reach. If so, grab it, put it on, and hit the silk. You're sitting pretty.

Other items can be helpful as well. Think of the maple seed as it gently wafts to earth. Can you find a proportionate personal vehicle—some large, flat, aerodynamically suitable piece of wreckage? Yes? Mount it and ride. Remember: Molecules are your friends. You want molecules of solid matter hitting atmospheric molecules in order to reduce your rate of acceleration: thirty-two feet per second per second.

Just how fast are you going? Imagine standing atop a train going 120 mph, and the train goes through a tunnel but you do not. You hit the wall above the opening at 120 mph. That's how fast you will be going at the end of your fall. Make no mistake: You will be "motoring."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every Cloud You Plummet Through Has a Silver Lining
Much will depend on your attitude. Don't let negative thinking ruin your descent. If you find yourself dwelling morbidly on your discouraging starting point of seven miles up, think of this: Twenty feet is the cutoff for fatality in a fall. That is, most who fall from twenty feet or higher die. Twenty feet! It's nothing! Pity the poor sod who falls from such a "height." What kind of planning time does he have? Think of the pluses in your situation. For example, although you fall faster and faster for the first fifteen seconds or so, you soon reach "terminal velocity"—the point at which atmospheric drag resists gravity's acceleration in a perfect standoff. Not only do you stop speeding up, but because the air is thickening as you fall, you actually begin to slow down. With every foot that you drop, you are going slower and slower. There's more: When parachutists focus on a landing zone, sometimes they become so fascinated with it that they forget to pull the ripcord. Since you probably have no ripcord, "target fixation" poses no danger. Count your blessings.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trees: Not All Are Alike
Once you have mastered your fears, you will think: trees. It's a reasonable thought. After all, doesn't the soothing "Rock-a-Bye, Baby" tell a tale of survival? You will want a tall tree with an excurrent growth pattern—a single, undivided trunk with lateral branches, delicate on top and thicker as you cascade downward. A conifer is best. The redwood is attractive for the way it rises to shorten your fall, but alas; the redwood's lowest branches grow dangerously high from the ground. Having gone 35,000 feet, you don't want the last 50 feet to ruin everything.

The perfectly tiered Norfolk Island pine is a natural safety net, so if you're near New Zealand, you're in luck. When crunch time comes, elongate your body and hit the tree limbs at a perfectly flat angle as close to the trunk as possible. Think!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Snow: Nature’s Icy Pillow
Snow is good—soft, deep, drifted snow. Snow is lovely. Aim for snow. Remember that you are the pilot and your body is the aircraft. By tilting forward and putting your hands at your side, you can modify your pitch and make progress not just vertically but horizontally as well. As you go down 15,000 feet, you can also go sideways two-thirds of that distance—that's two miles! Choose your landing zone. You be the boss.

If your search discloses no trees or snow, the parachutist's "five-point landing" is useful to remember even in the absence of a parachute. Meet the ground with your feet together, and fall sideways in such a way that five parts of your body successively absorb the shock, equally and in this order: feet, calf, thigh, buttock, and shoulder. 120 divided by five equals 24. Not bad! Twenty-four miles per hour is only a bit faster than the speed at which experienced parachutists land. There will be some bruising and breakage but no loss of consciousness to delay your press conference. Just be sure to apportion the 120-mph blow in equal fifths. Concentrate!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heroes Who Fell to Grace
Think of others who have gone before you. Think of Vesna Vulovic, a flight attendant who in 1972 fell 33,000 feet in the tail of an exploded DC-9 jetliner. She landed in snow and lived. Vesna knew about molecules.

Think of Joe Hermann of the Royal Australian Air Force, blown out of his bomber in 1944 without a parachute. He found himself falling through the night sky amid airplane debris and wildly grabbed a piece of it. It turned out to be not debris at all, but rather a fellow flyer in the process of pulling his ripcord. Joe hung on and, as a courtesy, hit the ground first, breaking the fall of his savior and a mere two ribs of his own. Joe was not a quitter. Don't you be.

Think of Nick Alkemade, an RAF tailgunner who jumped from his flaming turret without a parachute and fell 18,000 feet. When he came to on the ground and saw stars overhead, he lit a cigarette. He would later describe the fall as "a pleasant experience." Nick's trick: fir trees, underbrush, and snow. But in one important regard, Nick is a disappointment. He gave up. As he hurtled to German soil, he concluded he was going to die and felt "a strange peace." This is exactly the wrong kind of thinking. You cannot plan aggressively while experiencing "a strange peace."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To conclude, you must resolve to survive the second your jet explodes. Here are some encouraging words you can repeat on your way down.

"Keep a-goin'." —Frank L. Stanton

"Failure is not an option." —Ed Harris, as the guy in "Apollo 13" who says, "Failure is not an option"

"Hope is the thing with feathers
That perches in the soul
And sings the tune without the words
And never stops—at all." —Emily Dickinson"


Mike D10270.



PhillyKev

Jul 12, 2001, 3:43 PM
Post #18 of 23 (1851 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Philly (Why have you chosen a username referring to a popular -in the (Y)UK- brand of over-processed soft cheese?)
It and I happen to be named after where we both originated. Philadelphia, PA...a/k/a Philly.

mmmmmmmm.....Cream Cheese. But if you really want a taste of Philly you need to try a cheese steak and a hoagie. They're nature's perfect foods. Oh, and let's not forgot scrapple. We just don't believe in wasting any part of the pig...it's all edible Wink

cielos azules y cerveza fría

-Kevin


DZBone  (D 14358)

Jul 12, 2001, 3:44 PM
Post #19 of 23 (1851 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

That's classic!




riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 12, 2001, 10:34 PM
Post #20 of 23 (1829 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

To prevent the stability problem, PFF Level 1 students are taught to wave-off from the elbows outboard. With their shoulders, upper arms and elbows stationary, they rarely wobble.
Later on, when they do completion dives with coaches, they arm taught to do full-arm wave-offs.



pyke  (D 26387)

Jul 19, 2001, 10:04 AM
Post #21 of 23 (1777 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As the skydiver progresses, qualifys & lowers his deployment height then 5,500' tends to lose significance (except to me... that's usually when I complete the first point of 4-way).
yeah!!! Somebody who relates to my way of doing RW!!!Laugh

miked - gotta love ya!!

Kahurangi e Mahearangi,
Pyke Tongue
NZPF A - 2584
USPA C- ?????


ClayFowler  (A 36447)

Jul 19, 2001, 10:29 AM
Post #22 of 23 (1775 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

 Before you go trying that wrap your arms through the MLW thing you might wanna read the posts on the infamous..MR. BILL DIVE....sounds like it didnt work out too good...LOL



ClayFowler  (A 36447)

Jul 19, 2001, 10:49 AM
Post #23 of 23 (1773 views)
Shortcut
Re: Wave off vs 5 5 signal [In reply to] Can't Post

 F. U! I'm at work and now people are staring at me because I am laughing histerically at the article! It is a good laugh though......




Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)