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Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings?

 

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badlock

Jan 25, 2007, 12:23 AM
Post #1 of 66 (3044 views)
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Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? Can't Post

I often read in the forum that Racer owners told their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings available.
Even one meant that the Skyhook wouldn't be faster.
I'm wondering if they are right and why this could be true.
In my opinion there's no reason why a Racer should have faster reserve openings than other rigs.
For example - I don't think that the pop top construction makes a big difference because the PCs of ordinary "flap containers" have reached the clean air within a 1/10 of a second.
On the other hand, there are some other pop top rigs on the market, for example the Reflex or the Tear Drop (Classic 2-Pin, 1-Pin, Superfly, Viper...).
Why should they deploy slower??

My guess is that this whole Racers-are-the-fastest-theory is a mix from marketing claims (the Jump Shack commercial from the "Break away" video) and rumors.

Or what do you think?


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 25, 2007, 12:38 AM
Post #2 of 66 (3017 views)
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Re: [badlock] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Its because there's no flaps over the reserve PC. As for the Skyhook, it would only be faster if you had a main canopy over your head in some fasion. A skyhook chop is really impressive, very fast, very neat.

There have always been gimmicks to sell rigs. Do a search about the Reflex catapult system, for instance. Or soft housings, reverse risers, etc.

Quote:
My guess is that this whole Racers-are-the-fastest-theory is a mix from marketing claims (the Jump Shack commercial from the "Break away" video) and rumors.

Ding. We have a winner. The design either passed the TSO or it didn't. If it passed it has to open in a certain amount of time and/or altitude. No system in the world is going to let you chop at 100ft and make it through ok.


BlueSBDeath  (D 10160)

Jan 25, 2007, 2:47 AM
Post #3 of 66 (2973 views)
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Re: [badlock] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Very old test data, and the myth that we Racer jumpers love to be controversial Wink

Stay Safe,

Arvel


parafredo  (D 639)

Jan 25, 2007, 4:40 AM
Post #4 of 66 (2926 views)
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Re: [BlueSBDeath] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's put it this way.Would you jump a sorcerer basejump rig with a racer pilot chute to replace the initial design to make the second chute open faster?I don't think so...Skyhook IS the system


Miami  (D 17626)

Jan 25, 2007, 5:32 AM
Post #5 of 66 (2890 views)
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Re: [BlueSBDeath] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...and the myth that we Racer jumpers love to be controversial Wink

Now that is our winner for sure!Tongue

In reality though no container it going to affect how fast the reserve opens (considering normal deployments of course)...that is left to the design and packing of the canopy itself. What a container can affect is how fast the reserve bag gets off the canopy to allow it to open. The racer has no flaps for the reserve pc to push through so it should therefore carry more momentum on the launch...making it faster. Cool


RMURRAY

Jan 25, 2007, 9:28 AM
Post #6 of 66 (2758 views)
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Re: [parafredo] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's put it this way.Would you jump a sorcerer basejump rig with a racer pilot chute to replace the initial design to make the second chute open faster?I don't think so...Skyhook IS the system

simple/elegant design, lightweight, proven. that is what racer is. skyhook will save your ass if you are close the the ground. Fred, is there no loyalty in this sport?

rm


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jan 25, 2007, 11:20 AM
Post #7 of 66 (2696 views)
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Re: [RMURRAY] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
simple/elegant design, lightweight, proven. that is what racer is. skyhook will save your ass if you are close the the ground. Fred, is there no loyalty in this sport?
It's so funny. Everyone has its own proven theory why their rigs are faster in reserve deployment. Strong/QuasarII: we have spring loaded reserve covers... Cool


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 25, 2007, 1:42 PM
Post #8 of 66 (2627 views)
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Re: [Miami] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The racer has no flaps for the reserve pc to push through so it should therefore carry more momentum on the launch

The racer reserve PC doesn't have flaps to push out of the way, but it does have to pull the loops out through the thickness of the rig. This is usually a trivial amount of force, but not always.


BlueSBDeath  (D 10160)

Jan 25, 2007, 4:46 PM
Post #9 of 66 (2552 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
trivial amount of force

Apparently you have never pulled the reserve of a very tightly closed Racer, my "last hope rope" goes from my reserve handel to my foot Tongue

Stay Safe,

Arvel


parafredo  (D 639)

Jan 25, 2007, 5:48 PM
Post #10 of 66 (2519 views)
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Re: [RMURRAY] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fred, is there no loyalty in this sport?

Yes,you are right about the racer because I owned one and I did 3 resreves ride on them,2 on racer tandem.They work just perfect and fast but not as fast like the Skyhook.That was my point and there is no doubt about this.I have nothing against the racer,just a fact.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 25, 2007, 5:52 PM
Post #11 of 66 (2517 views)
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Re: [BlueSBDeath] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
trivial amount of force

Apparently you have never pulled the reserve of a very tightly closed Racer, my "last hope rope" goes from my reserve handel to my foot Tongue

Stay Safe,

Arvel

I was referring to how much force it can take to pull the loops through the rig when the PC is deploying, not the pull force of the ripcord.


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Jan 25, 2007, 8:06 PM
Post #12 of 66 (2481 views)
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Re: [parafredo] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

While I have never seen it, I have heard from people that have worked about Jump Shack's "Lariat" which is similar to the principles of the skyhook to my understanding.

From what information I have received about it, I believe it is a noose type system that tightens down on the freebag bridle and uses the main as the pilot chute. I may be wrong about this and if there is anyone out there that has concrete information about this please correct me.

This system since it works in a similar manor as a skyhook should be able to extract the reserve canopy just as fast.

This is a option on rigs but you have to ask for it as it is not on the order form. Speculation here, but hearing what the creator is like, he probably thinks that his system is superior the way it is or has some kind of information as to why it is not openly offered.

I am a racer but I do like the idea of the skyhook. I do not see anyway that pilot chute could extract a canopy as fast as static line could but this other system that they have if I have my information about it correct, would be comparable.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Jan 25, 2007, 8:14 PM
Post #13 of 66 (2478 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The design either passed the TSO or it didn't. If it passed it has to open in a certain amount of time and/or altitude.

Ummm... where's Sparky when you need him... or CMan... or MRigger... anyway... I've had way too many beers right now to go diggin' through the TSOs... while I don't disagree that all rigs out there HAVE passed the TSOs... I'm not sure if there is or isn't a, "The reserve gotta open in a certain amount of time" spec in the TSOs or not... someone please enliten me if there is or isn't.



Quote:
No system in the world is going to let you chop at 100ft and make it through ok.

Ummm... okay, corner case I know, but there are military systems that will, under certain conditions, but that, as they say, is a different story. Wink


(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Jan 25, 2007, 8:15 PM)


everymansaved  (C License)

Jan 25, 2007, 10:30 PM
Post #14 of 66 (2438 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
simple/elegant design, lightweight, proven. that is what racer is. skyhook will save your ass if you are close the the ground. Fred, is there no loyalty in this sport?
It's so funny. Everyone has its own proven theory why their rigs are faster in reserve deployment. Strong/QuasarII: we have spring loaded reserve covers... Cool

Ahh, someone beat me to it. I thought of that as quite the gimmick when I saw it.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
Moderator
Jan 26, 2007, 1:16 AM
Post #15 of 66 (2417 views)
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Re: [Miami] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The racer has no flaps for the reserve pc to push through so it should therefore carry more momentum on the launch...making it faster. Cool

That would only be true if other rigs used the same reserve PC or spring. A 44 magnum round fired through a cardboard box has a lot more energy than a .22 fired through a hole in the box.

t


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Jan 26, 2007, 1:32 AM
Post #16 of 66 (2413 views)
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Re: [badlock] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Racer is uglyTongue...
But deamn comfortable...
but uglyBlush


RMURRAY

Jan 26, 2007, 3:25 AM
Post #17 of 66 (2386 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The racer has no flaps for the reserve pc to push through so it should therefore carry more momentum on the launch...making it faster. Cool

That would only be true if other rigs used the same reserve PC or spring. A 44 magnum round fired through a cardboard box has a lot more energy than a .22 fired through a hole in the box.

t

true. rigs with all those flaps to push through need a stronger heavier PC spring. even with the strongest spring in the Mirage it did not launch the PC out to the end of the bridle like my racer...of course that does not mean the racer will get the reserve open faster...I wonder why you need to have a reserve over your head in 100 ft - why would you need to cut away so low - oh yes, so we can all be reckless and (maybe) get away with it...

rm


badlock

Jan 26, 2007, 4:13 AM
Post #18 of 66 (2373 views)
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Re: [RMURRAY] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wonder why you need to have a reserve over your head in 100 ft - why would you need to cut away so low

Are we talking about two different problems?
The advantage of the Skyhook is very simple: You're under a fast spinnging #*!!Crazy canopy spiraling to the ground FAST. Altitude unknown.
Two scenarios are imaginable:

1.: You can cut away, tumble a little bit thru the sky and then, when you're a little bit stable, pull your reserve (hint: You've lost a lot of altitude)

2.: Plan B (with Skyhook): One grip and the S#*t is over.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcilWotCsCs


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 26, 2007, 6:26 AM
Post #19 of 66 (2332 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, the TSO spec says a reserve canopy must "open" in 300 feet or less. Open might not mean fully inflated also in their terms. This distance is the same from a terminal deployment or from a cutaway.


Miami  (D 17626)

Jan 26, 2007, 6:57 AM
Post #20 of 66 (2317 views)
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Re: [Tonto] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The racer has no flaps for the reserve pc to push through so it should therefore carry more momentum on the launch...making it faster. Cool

That would only be true if other rigs used the same reserve PC or spring. A 44 magnum round fired through a cardboard box has a lot more energy than a .22 fired through a hole in the box.

Without a doubt! Some of those reserve PCs have such a huge beefy spring it's a wonder they don't fall past you like an anvil after firing the reserve!Tongue My racer though...nice light little spring that hardly has to do any work to fire to the end of the bridle, then lots of drag to get the bag off the canopy in a hurry.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 26, 2007, 6:59 AM
Post #21 of 66 (2316 views)
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Re: [badlock] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1.: You can cut away, tumble a little bit thru the sky and then, when you're a little bit stable, pull your reserve (hint: You've lost a lot of altitude)

Why would you waste time tumbling? That's just silly, pull the reserve instead.


jcecil

Jan 26, 2007, 10:04 AM
Post #22 of 66 (2218 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a video talking about the history of the skyhook at skydivingmovies.com, it shows video of two guys that cut away at around 100 feet testing the skyhook, and both survive no problem. One of the test jumpers even had time to unstow his brakes and flare. If I remember right, they had packed their reserves slider down like a base jump, but still damn impressive.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Jan 26, 2007, 10:13 AM
Post #23 of 66 (2210 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, the TSO spec says a reserve canopy must "open" in 300 feet or less. Open might not mean fully inflated also in their terms. This distance is the same from a terminal deployment or from a cutaway.

Blush DOH! I knew that... a long day to the end of a long week yesterday & too many beers while surfin' DZ.com.

Anyway, Sparky sent me this too...

AS8015-b

4.3.6 Functional Test (Normal Pack All Types):

For all 4.3.6 tests the maximum allowable opening time for parachute canopies with a maximum operating weight of 250 lb (113.4 kg) or less, is 3 s from the moment of pack opening. For parachutes with a maximum operating weight of greater than 250 lb (113.4 kg) the maximum allowable opening time shall be increased by 0.01 s for every pound of maximum operating weight in excess of 250 lb (113.4 kg).

4.3.6 (Continued):

Alternatively altitude loss instead of time may be measured and the maximum allowable altitude loss may be calculated as follows.

For all 4.3.6 tests the maximum allowable altitude loss for parachutes with a maximum operating weight of 250 lb (113.4 kg) or less is 300 ft (91.5 m) from the altitude at pack opening. For parachutes with a maximum operating weight of greater than 250 lb (113.4 kg) the maximum allowable altitude loss shall be increased by 1 ft for every pound of maximum operating weight in excess of 250 lb (113.4 kg).

NOTE: Altitude loss measurements must be measured along a vertical trajectory only. However, the deviation from the vertical produced by a gliding main parachute descending with a vertical velocity of less than 20 FPS (6.1 m/s) shall be acceptable.

4.3.6.1 Direct Drop Tests:

There shall be a minimum of 48 drops with a weight not more than the maximum operating weight. There shall be a minimum of 6 dummy drops at the maximum operating weight. The airspeed at the time of pack opening shall be as outlined in the test table. The airspeeds are in
KEAS (km/h). The parachute canopy must be functionally open within the time obtained in 4.3.6 from the time of pack opening.


4.3.6.2 Breakaway Drop Tests:

Eight drops shall be made by a person weighing not more than the maximum operating weight by breaking away from an open and normally functioning main parachute canopy with a vertical velocity of less than 20 FPS (6.1 m/s) at the time of breakaway and actuating the reserve pack within 2 s of the breakaway. If a reserve static line is part of the assembly, no less than 4 of the breakaway drops shall be made with the reserve static line actuating the reserve pack.The parachute canopy must be functionally open within the time +2 s, or altitude, obtained in 4.3.6
from the time of breakaway.

-----------------

Quote:
Without a doubt! Some of those reserve PCs have such a huge beefy spring it's a wonder they don't fall past you like an anvil after firing the reserve!

No, no Miami, the "theory" behind those types of "huge beefy springs" on some systems is not to launch the pilotchute away from the jumper, its to launch the jumper away from the pilotchute / bag... Tongue

Just Kidding!

Angelic


(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Jan 26, 2007, 10:17 AM)


NancyJ  (D 7675)

Jan 26, 2007, 10:50 AM
Post #24 of 66 (2194 views)
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Re: [badlock] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not just one factor (the pilotchute being externally mounted for example), that affects speed of reserve deployments.

In the case of the Racer, it's the fact that the reserve container opens more freely and completely, has no boxed corners where it counts, has a very bullet-shaped reserve deployment bag, and has a higher drag pilotchute. "Higher that what?" you may ask.

Well, in wind tunnel tests, conducted at the NASA Ames Research Facility, the Racer pilotchute demonstrated an 84% drag efficiency. Other pilotchutes that we brought along, and also tested averaged between 40-60%. We used NASA's finely calibrated load cell that was mounted in the tunnel.
The Racer pilotchute "stops" better - has greater "snatch" - however you want to say it. It doesn't "slip" through the air as much, in other words.

BTW, we happened to be able to conduct these tests in the NASA wind tunnel, because were testing John Sherman's patented variable speed midair refueling drogue that he designed at the bequest of the Marine Corps. The same refuleing drogue can be used to fuel fast flying jets or slow flying helicopters, and still maintain a constant drag. It's quite a remarkable device...

But with regard to the speedy reserve deployments, yes the weight of the spring, the type of mesh that's used in the pilotchute, the ease of bag extraction, etc... They all contribute.

However, the proof is in the pudding. Go to the Jump Shack website to see repeatable 2-second reserve deployments. It's funny, when Jump Shack first advertised that fact that Racers could consistently produce 2-second reserve deployments, the critics said, "It was irresponsible to advertise such a thing, because it would encourage people to pull low." I'll say it right now - don't pull low.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 26, 2007, 11:08 AM
Post #25 of 66 (2185 views)
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Re: [badlock] Why do Racer owners think their rig would offer the fastest reserve openings? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I'm wondering if they are right and why this could be true.

Ask Bill Booth about the racer vs vector drop tests they did years ago. It's informative _and_ a great story.


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