could also be his intention isnt to jump it yet, my plan originally was to buy the rig i eventually wanted to settle on while i could afford it but not jump it until i was able. the other plan was to buy a rig with a smaller canopy and put a bigger one in it and either sell the original smaller one or keep it until i was ready to downsize
Find out what DZ he jumps at, call the DZ and talk to the DZO, S&TA and/or head instructor. If the buyer won't give that info out or says "well, I don't have a home DZ" then I wouldn't sell the gear.
I went through the same thing when selling my canopy a few months ago. I talked to people who jumped at the DZ, the DZO and S&TA. Unless I personally know the person I want refrences when selling a canopy or a container to fit small canopies.
if i am selling gear (in the future), it is my responsibility if the person I sold my gear to, femurs or even dies? I am having trouble wrapping my mind around this. Yossarian makes a good point, but I venture to take it one step further. I am selling a product, they are interested in paying me for it. I fail to see where my responsibility lies in all of this. But, I haven't been around for long and I have yet to be in a position as the seller. I would love to hear some responses to this with an open mind.
I am selling a product, they are interested in paying me for it. I fail to see where my responsibility lies in all this. Part of the problem with all the canopy related injuries and deaths in recent years is that too many inexperienced jumpers are buying and using canopies they're simply not ready for. SOMEBODY is selling them these canopies. Your argument is purely economical, it overlooks any ethical obligation you have to the buyer and our sport.
Would you sell a machine gun to a 12 year old kid ? Why not, if you've got one for sale, the kid has the money and wants one ? Without opening the gun ownership can of worms, I think most reasonable people would have to think about a 12 year old with a machine gun, while selling the same kid a .22 if he shows you a NRA gun safety course card could be quite reasonable.
It's always possible that anybody can get killed skydiving. And somebody could fly my 210 Pilot into the ground and kill themselves too. But it isn't nearly as likely as it could be with a sub 150 ft. fully elliptical, or even cross braced canopy. These "kids" (and some of them should be old enough to know better) need to cool their jets and take the time to learn how to fly canopies safely. A 27 year old "kid" with just a few hundred jumps killed himself this fall making a front riser turn below 100 ft. on a 135 ft. elliptical canopy. How would you feel if YOU had sold him the canopy ?
There ARE plenty of qualified jumpers out there who can handle any canopy you might care to sell. And you DO have an ethical responsibility to sell only to people who can present some evidence or references to their skill and ability. Otherwise, you're selling a machine gun to a 12 year old.
(This post was edited by tbrown on Jan 10, 2007, 10:54 AM)
>if i am selling gear (in the future), it is my responsibility if >the person I sold my gear to, femurs or even dies?
No. At most, you are responsible for determining that the person is getting a canopy/reserve that is suitable for their experience level. What they do with it is up to them.
>I am selling a product, they are interested in paying me for it. I >fail to see where my responsibility lies in all of this.
That would be true if this were Ebay. But it's skydiving. And you may discover that the person who wanted that Stiletto 99 because no one who knew them would sell it to them are friends with your best friend - and your best friend is going to be devastated when the buyer kills himself on it. That's the sort of direct effect you may see.
This is still a relatively small community, and we pride ourselves on looking out for each other. Which makes transactions like that a bit more complex, but helps everyone in the end.
Case in point - I once had a Crossfire 1 99 that I didn't like. I tried to sell it via classifieds. I got about 20 replies, and I asked them for references. Most of them refused, or never wrote me back. Finally I got a reply from a guy in Russia who pointed me to a rigger in Washington. I called him, he said "Oh yeah, I jumped with that guy in XXXX. He has a Stiletto 99; landed it pretty well as I recall." I sold it to him, and he seemed happy with it.
Took maybe an extra 5 days, but at least I know it was going to someone who would be likely to be able to fly it.
I understand. And I agree that we should maintain a community mentality on here and be mindful of each other. I guess if the person is serious about buying gear, they should be able to provide a reputable reference to back up their claims of experience. As for the manufacturers, I thought they do not sell HP canopies without reference? Im not sure here, but I don't believe any Joe Blow can call them up and order a sub-100 canopy.
As for the manufacturers, I thought they do not sell HP canopies without reference? Im not sure here, but I don't believe any Joe Blow can call them up and order a sub-100 canopy.
That's the theory, and in my experience it's worked that way in practice too. My dealer checked me out before selling me a Spectre 190, and I've had extensive conversations with Brian Germain before purchasing a Samurai 170 and 135.