Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
*HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

autoset  (Student)

Jan 7, 2007, 1:49 PM
Post #1 of 52 (3394 views)
Shortcut
*HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read Can't Post

Okay I'm a bit obsesed with safety as you may know from my other posts. This issue specially caught my attention when I read the news one day about a woman who fell out of her harness in her first tandem. Horrible.


I'm taking AFF classes at my local DZ and their student rigs (even harnesses for tandems) DON'T have the vital back strap which prevents the student from falling out of the harness when the parachute opens, therefore I'm always worried when jumping with their rigs that I may fall out if I have a premature opening and my body (legs specially) are not in the proper position.

----Pictures----

EXAMPLE of what could happen:
http://img166.imageshack.us/...6/8427/ghjhgjmn3.jpg


This is the back strap I'm talking about, and everybody should have:
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/9555/gjjgwk7.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6167/gjgjfy8.jpg
http://img489.imageshack.us/...9/1300/ufgyuulb8.jpg


And this is what rigs at my DZ look like:
http://img329.imageshack.us/...29/5095/fghfhkp5.jpg
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/6200/jgjgdf8.jpg
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/5296/obzw6.jpg


Now, because I'm not jumping anymore without a strap that protects me from falling out and a back strap like the shown in the pictures before are permanently built-in the harness, I'm developing a portable strap which can be connected to most rigs and also be removed whenever you want, Please see picture to understand how it works. (Warning: I'm not a good drawer)

http://img186.imageshack.us/.../7772/fdydfhfki1.png
http://img489.imageshack.us/...7632/ghjghjkgxy0.png


Well, whats your opinion on this whole issue?


(This post was edited by autoset on Jan 7, 2007, 1:51 PM)


Andy_Copland  (A 105852)

Jan 7, 2007, 2:01 PM
Post #2 of 52 (3369 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right, you could fall out Shocked

Jump or dont jump mate, this sport isnt 100% safe.

Edit: Look at my jump numbers, i dont know shit. But i have been to a few DZ's and never seen back straps. Lots of DZ's are making "HUGE" mistakes


(This post was edited by Andy_Copland on Jan 7, 2007, 2:02 PM)


skydog  (D 567)

Jan 7, 2007, 2:20 PM
Post #3 of 52 (3337 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Elegant solution to a non-existent problem.

I may be wrong, but I have never heard of anyone, apart from the tandems, falling out on deployment.

Bryn


Andy_Copland  (A 105852)

Jan 7, 2007, 2:22 PM
Post #4 of 52 (3332 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydog] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

I wanted to say that but wasnt 100% on my facts.

To the original poster: Its the same story of go talk to your instructors mate, good luck Smile


jakee  (C License)

Jan 7, 2007, 2:23 PM
Post #5 of 52 (3329 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm taking AFF classes at my local DZ and their student rigs DON'T have the vital back strap which prevents the student from falling out of the harness when the parachute opens, therefore I'm always worried when jumping with their rigs that I may fall out if I have a premature opening and my body (legs specially) are not in the proper position.

Talk to your instructors.

Student and sport parachute rigs are not tandem harnesses. The vast, vast majority of student and sport rigs in service today do not have a back strap. I've never seen a rig with a backstrap. The closest you'll get to it on most modern gear is a leg strap bungee to keep the leg straps from slipping down the thigh. If you are worried, talk to your instructors. If there's something you need clarified, talk to your instructors. Hell, just talk to them anyway, they'll appreciate the companyWink


pinkfairy  (C 85665)

Jan 7, 2007, 2:30 PM
Post #6 of 52 (3314 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, don't listen to me, I'm just a newbie myself,

but this has been discussed a lot on the forum here. do a search on "falling out of rig".

I suggest you talk to your instructor. He'll be able to explain it to you.

By all means, read up on the dangers of skydiving, and learn about what can keep you safe, but don't forget to have fun.

Blues!


MakeItHappen

Jan 7, 2007, 2:49 PM
Post #7 of 52 (3276 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, whats your opinion on this whole issue?

I think you need to reread the article you got those pics from.
Can you fall out of a properly fastened harness?

.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2007, 2:50 PM
Post #8 of 52 (3272 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

The issue is present, but just the horizontal strap is not an ideal solution. One of the tandem fatalities occured even with a strap in place. Stong has implemented a new design on their tandem harnesses that eliminates the issue.

Before you do anything like this please consult your local instructors and riggers. There is a lot of things that need to go into designing and testing of any modifications to a rig. Depending on the design of what ever you are making you may make the situation worse by leading to a failue at another point in the harness. Material selection, stitch pattern and even hardware choises all are important to think about and unless you have a lot of experience in rigging already it is best to work with an experienced rigger that is firmiliar with some of the more detailed parts of harness design.

From the instructor side this type in incident has only occured in Tandem harnesses so they may be extremely unlikely to allow you to use a home made piece of rigging because it may interfere with the learning method they are using. On AFF jumps some rigs are set up for either side JM deployment and this webbing may interfere with the reserve side or something.

The best thing you can do at this point in your student program is to step away from a computer and go sit and talk to your instructors. Express to them your thoughts and concerns and work with them directly to address your fears. The internet is great since it can answer almost every question you could have on the sport but the other edge is that it can raise a lot of unneeded fears because of the information overload.

You are more likely to do something under canopy and hurt yourself then you are to fall out of a rig unless it is completly misfitted for you.


Loonix

Jan 7, 2007, 2:57 PM
Post #9 of 52 (3258 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now, because I'm not jumping anymore without a strap that protects me from falling out and a back strap like the shown in the pictures before are permanently built-in the harness, I'm developing a portable strap which can be connected to most rigs and also be removed whenever you want, Please see picture to understand how it works. (Warning: I'm not a good drawer)

http://img186.imageshack.us/.../7772/fdydfhfki1.png
http://img489.imageshack.us/...7632/ghjghjkgxy0.png


Well, whats your opinion on this whole issue?

First of all, don't listen to me becuase blabla, and talk to your instructors, but you asked my opinion, so here it is:
Modifying the equipment you use would in my opinion be more dangerous than jumping it as it is.

You may not see any dangers about this modification, and I don't either, but none of us knows that. The current rigs have proven over time to be safe (as far as _I_ know, nobody have died on sport rigs due to falling out on opening-shock), and changing something COULD potentially lead to unforeseen results, which in turn.... etc.

I'm not saying sport rigs are PERFECT today, but you are a student, and not in the position to judge this. Neither am I. There are other dangers, very real ones, that you should probably pay attention to rather than this.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jan 7, 2007, 3:22 PM
Post #10 of 52 (3218 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

"A little information is a dangerous thing." So is a computer hooked to the internet.Mad

Every rig you jump and you see jumped essentially has the back strap your talking about, but it also hold the main parachute! The container serves that function on real rigs. Tandam passenger harnesses, with out a container, need to have the strap added. At the article on Jan's website notes, you can fall out of almost any container if you open in an inappropriate position. But stop worrying about it and think about your skydiving.

As to your solution, NO load bearing harness that I know of has a crotch strap. I think the first time it's tight and the harness stretches you will give up your chance of procreating.Shocked Actually there is a harness that has a straight crotch strap like that. It's used to fly actors for shows like peter pan. It's heavily padded with wool fleece, never takes more than one g, and is usually used by females or kids. And that was 20 years ago, not still sure it's used.

There are much better solutions and I didn't look but believe its shown on Jan's website. But leave harness design and rigging to the professionals.


payback462

Jan 7, 2007, 3:55 PM
Post #11 of 52 (3173 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

wow, you totally designed a taint strap, i think i would pay money to see your face on deployment with that thing in action. talk about ultra atomic wedgie


Gene03

Jan 7, 2007, 4:24 PM
Post #12 of 52 (3137 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh but they do have a horizontal backstrap. It's just built into the container.
As far as leaving it to the pros... they weren't pros when they started building rigs. A lot of mistakes were made during the learning curve however.
I'd still take Terry's advise and leave it alone.
Don't give up on what you think may be a good idea. that's how progress is made. Think it out and run it by your instructers, hell who knows what you might come up with.
Prudence and knowledge is paramount.


(This post was edited by Gene03 on Jan 7, 2007, 4:36 PM)


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Jan 7, 2007, 5:20 PM
Post #13 of 52 (3081 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Get a rig that fits you and a bungee for the leg straps.

Falling out of harnesses comes from improper adjustment, and/or body types that might not fit the proper criteria for skydiving.

Get a rig that fits, you won't fall out.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 7, 2007, 5:47 PM
Post #14 of 52 (3055 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Get a rig that fits you and a bungee for the leg straps.

Falling out of harnesses comes from improper adjustment, and/or body types that might not fit the proper criteria for skydiving.

Get a rig that fits, you won't fall out.
Unless yo want to.Wink


MB38  (A 48618)

Jan 7, 2007, 6:25 PM
Post #15 of 52 (3014 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Do a search for belly straps and their relationship to tightening up the "hole."


SWATcop  (B 17052)

Jan 7, 2007, 6:27 PM
Post #16 of 52 (3011 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I think its a non issue but you might find this interesting. I have jumped them on military free fall rigs with no problems, you won't get one on student gear though.

http://www.dropzone.com/...g=bellyband;#1100466


(This post was edited by SWATcop on Jan 7, 2007, 6:31 PM)


porpoishead  (B 30018)

Jan 7, 2007, 9:06 PM
Post #17 of 52 (2902 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay I'm a bit obsesed with safety as you may know from my other posts.
_________________________________________________


seems the only thing you havent brought up is whuffo yall jump out them planes.



I'm taking AFF classes at my local DZ and their student rigs (even harnesses for tandems) DON'T have the vital back strap which prevents the student from falling out of the harness when the parachute opens, therefore I'm always worried when jumping with their rigs that I may fall out if I have a premature opening and my body (legs specially) are not in the proper position.
____________________________________________________

what dropzone? where? who are you? what is your area of expertise in these matters that you bring up? vital ones, especially in harness moifications.

please fill out your profile...


did I mention whuffo!!!


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Jan 7, 2007, 9:14 PM
Post #18 of 52 (2894 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
Okay I'm a bit obsesed with safety

Suggestion: Skydiving is not for you, try bowling.......Crazy



Be safe
Ed


irishrigger  (D 297)

Jan 7, 2007, 9:27 PM
Post #19 of 52 (2883 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

its good of you to ask questions regarding this issue with harnesses.i have only ever heard of 3 people falling out there harness.tragicly,there has been 2 tandem passangers in the last year.but that was not because of the gear,it was down to human error.
the only other one i know about is a lady in namibia,africa.again that was human error.she was very small(5'0i believe) and jumped a rig with a harness made for 6'4.and in conjunction with her jumpsuit(spandex) she did mangage to fall out backwards after a hard opening due to a packing error.everyone of these was human error,and not the fault of the gear.
most student equipment these days is designed with adjustable main lift webs so that the student fits the harness correctly.your instructor can show and explain it you if you ask him/her.
next time you are at the DZ,have a closer look at the euipment and see how it is designed to stop people falling out of it.every rig has diagonal backstrap as well as a laterals.
the incidents you mentioned were extreme cases where human error was the main factor,so even dow you raised a valid point,its not a problem and you should enjoy your future jumps.Smile


(This post was edited by irishrigger on Jan 7, 2007, 9:30 PM)


two40  (Student)

Jan 7, 2007, 9:28 PM
Post #20 of 52 (2881 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

is your design a women only solution? i'd hate to have a hard opening with that thing. man ouch!


dorbie

Jan 7, 2007, 9:38 PM
Post #21 of 52 (2867 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay I'm a bit obsesed with safety

A good attitude in skydiving IMHO.

In reply to:
...their student rigs (even harnesses for tandems) DON'T have the vital back strap which prevents the student from falling out of the harness when the parachute opens

I was going to say well spotted but you've gone and mined images from several threads on the subject, so I guess you've seen the extensive discussions there.

In reply to:

http://img489.imageshack.us/...7632/ghjghjkgxy0.png


Well, whats your opinion on this whole issue?

I don't think you can make a modification to a rig like that, what happens if your bridle slips through whatever you add or there is some other untested consequence like asymmetric loading during opening or interfering with the normal operation of the adjustable harness connections, or wear on the webbing. Nice idea but that's a harness, they are tested in ways you can't imagine, don't screw with it, at least not until you get your master rigger's certification.

You've presented some great reasons to adjust & fasten a correctly fitting rig, and to deploy on a good stable arch, so stick with that and talk to your instructors.

I think it's unlikely you'll have a problem, if you look at the details that emerged from the incidents with the people slipping from tandem harnesses they were improperly tightened, or in fact not tightened at all in conjunction with physical disability or unusual body shape. Tragedies, but not of the sort you're likely to repeat jumping student gear. You might be better worrying about other factors, there's no shortage of things that can kill you skydiving.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 7, 2007, 11:20 PM
Post #22 of 52 (2796 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Well:

1) I'm an instructor, and I wouldn't let you use that on a student jump. I doubt any instructor would. It would sure suck to discover an interesting new failure mode with your homebrew strap at 4000 feet.

2) you may be confusing several rigging issues here. In one of the pictures you show a tandem harness with a backstrap; the lateral strap and container do that job on a regular rig.

3) if the gear makes you uncomfortable, ask your instructor about it. If it still makes you uncomfortable, don't jump!


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 7, 2007, 11:28 PM
Post #23 of 52 (2787 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

Am I wrong in believing it's illegal for a non-rigger to modify a rig? Wouldn't the pilot be in potential jeopardy if someone jumps a non-TSO'd device?


icevideot  (D 23833)

Jan 8, 2007, 6:56 AM
Post #24 of 52 (2636 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

You have received a lot of good points here but as someone pointed out, you did some research already to find those images. As an instructor I would not allow you to modify or add to the equipment. I would introduce you to our rigger and let you discuss your ideas with him and I would talk to you as well. As far as AFF goes, as long as you arch is there any chance of falling out?

I would advise you to think about why you are asking this question. Are you really afraid of the gear or are you looking for a reason not to continue jumping. The only reason to pursue skydiving is because you want to so badly that you will dedicate the time and funds and neglect other stuff in the process. You don't have anything to prove here. Make your own decisions and I hope you are happy with them.

Cheers, Robin.


bch7773  (C License)

Jan 8, 2007, 9:28 AM
Post #25 of 52 (2479 views)
Shortcut
Re: [autoset] *HUGE mistake I'm seeing in the rigs at my DZ, even in the students rigs* Suggest you to read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, whats your opinion on this whole issue?

calm down!!!, talk to your instructors, and jump.


First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Gear and Rigging

 


Search for (options)