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Landing Pattern Police

 

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ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Jan 1, 2007, 4:50 PM
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Landing Pattern Police Can't Post

Et all... reading to two threads going in the Incidents forum regarding the Dec 30 and Dec 31 fatalities at Eloy as well as the The 'Oh no its cool, I'm a really good skydiver' attiude thread leads me to pose this question...

Sure, a lot, most, maybe all DZs out there probably have some sort of "policy" or "guidline" or "rules" applying to things like landing patterns, hook turns & experience levels to land at the studen't vs. "experienced" landing areas... for example, at my home DZ its supposed to be a left hand pattern at the experinced pit, land into the wind, if no wind, first person down sets the direction rule... but how many DZs / DZOs / S&TAs out there actively enforce such regs?

In other words, anyone out there in the verse actually ever experience anyone ever really being "busted" for a "landing pattern" violation or landing area infraction?? ... i.e. grounded for the day, getting put on a 30 day board, 86'ed???

... or is it all just lip service and the problems continue??


UDSkyJunkie  (D 25746)

Jan 1, 2007, 5:08 PM
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seen rules enforced twice: once at rantoul, they had an arrow that pointed in the landing direction.

The other was at Eloy... they have one landing area for north-south, and another for east-west, and you have to land parallel, not corner to corner. I've seen the S&TA get on people for it, and I was once pulled aside by an airspeed member and politely reminded of the policy. They also said to use a left-hand pattern if the landing area is to your left, and a right-hand if it's to the right, so you never cross over the centerline. Eloy's was the best system I've seen.

Outside of that, I've never seen anything but a free-for-all.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Jan 1, 2007, 5:18 PM
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Re: [UDSkyJunkie] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

So the enforcement was a stiff talkin' to by the S&TA and/or a highly experienced / highly recognized member of the DZ; granted this is the exactly what the first step should be, but what do you think would have happened next (if anything) if their warnings hadn't been listened to is what I'm curious to hear is such cases... as in, does any discipline really ever happen?


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 1, 2007, 5:41 PM
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

Our CI will relocate your arse (for a long walk back to the hanger) if you are an up jumper and doing somthing stupid under canopy, if you repeat stupidity he will ground you.... I like our CISmile


Edit to add, he has relocated one of the DZOs beforeSly


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jan 1, 2007, 5:42 PM)


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Jan 1, 2007, 5:43 PM
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Re: [Squeak] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

Blush ... okay, I'll show my lack of understanding of "down-under-skydiving-lingo"... errr... CI????


MagicGuy  (D 30470)

Jan 1, 2007, 6:09 PM
Post #6 of 44 (2337 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen people get talked to about landing patterns. If you want to do right handed patterns (at my DZ it's always a left hand pattern for the experienced landing area) or sachet on final, don't land in the experienced area.

I've also seen people do things like hang out downwind and then do a 180 into the wind for final. Not even a pattern, and it can confuse everyone else who are watching for people to do their pattern. In fact, one time I was starting my downwind and this guy who was just messing around under canopy and unaware of his surroundings. By the time I was doing my crosswind, the guy just completely 180s out of nowhere and starts heading right towards me. Scared the shit out of me. When I confronted him on it, he had nothing to say. I let the S&TA know about it.

Following the landing pattern, to me, is one of the most important parts to being safe under canopy. If you have a mal on opening, at least you generally have time to chop. A collision with another jumper at 200 feet.. well, you know the rest.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 1, 2007, 6:19 PM
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Blush ... okay, I'll show my lack of understanding of "down-under-skydiving-lingo"... errr... CI????

Chief Instructor, all instructors work under them at the DZ, in most places the DZO ans CI are the same, in some places, the DZO understand the conflict of interests and have a seperate CI . this is what our DZ has.
The CI is the go to man for all things Student based and safety, he also acts as DZSO (ST&A).
Student operations cannot proceeed without a CI


1snowangel  (D 27651)

Jan 1, 2007, 7:48 PM
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

Eloy had a guy that would police it nonstop, if you didn't go by the rules, he would hop on his bicycle, and meet you out in the landing area. We saw this happen on numerous occasions. I WISH we had someone to do the same in Raeford. On any given day, any given load, you will see canopies coming in every which way...I never felt so threatened while under canopy until we made RPC our home DZ. ....but they still let free fliers out first too...Crazy


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 1, 2007, 8:15 PM
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

I got a tough talking from the S&TA at Perris my first time there.
Mike Swanson was first canopy down, and he'd landed downwind with a light breeze blowing.
I landed opposite (3rd jumper down) and most everyone else followed me, excepting a swooper who was right behind Mike.
When I pointed out to the S&TA that I'd landed into the wind and the other two had landed downwind, his exact words were "Sometimes you gotta take one for the team, or else land way away from the grass."
He was mostly chewing my ass because according to him, I set the wrong landing direction for everyone else.
He was right, the rule is first canopy down, so I guess I should have landed farther out. Frankly, I wasn't prepared for the first canopy to be a downwinder due to my jump experience at the time. Now I know better.
Anyway, I was told if I did it again, I'd be grounded for the day.

[edited to add:]
At our DZ, we had a swooper run into another skydiver in the D-license area/south area, and so the DZO sent him home for the day. Our DZ restricts swooping to one area only (same area the tandems land, but no one is landing after the tandems).


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 1, 2007, 10:18 PM)


scratch69  (F 1)

Jan 1, 2007, 9:01 PM
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In other words, anyone out there in the verse actually ever experience anyone ever really being "busted" for a "landing pattern" violation or landing area infraction?? ... i.e. grounded for the day, getting put on a 30 day board, 86'ed???

... or is it all just lip service and the problems continue??

There are a few DZ's out there that I've been to that have designated landing areas for certain experience levels and for things like swooping. This has always made sense and I have never seen a problem with this. Most DZ's, though, are in fact a "free-for-all" and the answer to your question is NO, there is no proper reprimand. I know this first hand from my earlier days when I did break the rules of landing pattern, and nothing was done about it. This was unintentional, I should add. As a new jumper going to new DZ's, I always found it hard to figure out their particular rules on the LZ, so mistakes were made, thankfully no major ones.


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

Jan 1, 2007, 9:33 PM
Post #11 of 44 (2208 views)
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Re: [scratch69] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

At Byron, we have tough love police. Nobody gets away with anything. If you fuck up, no matter what your experience level, you will get a talking to. Do it again, and you risk being grounded. Then if you are really messing it up, you'll be asked not to jump there anymore.

Skydive San Diego seems to be the same. The DZM will chew you a new one if you break a rule. I haven't seen him ground anyone yet, but I've only been down here since July.

What kind of punishment where you looking for?


scratch69  (F 1)

Jan 1, 2007, 9:49 PM
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Re: [GravityGirl] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'll address Tom's potential mistakes in a moment, but let's look at the other side of the equation as well. HP canopies are not going away. They will be at your DZ. They will be at boogies. We really need to segregate the landing areas to address this. I get pissed when I'm in the slow lane of the freeway and some asshat cuts me off doing 90 mph. But I also get pissed on the freeway when some asshat pulls into the fast lane doing 50 mph. But we have designated lanes on the freeway. Imagine how many traffic accidents there would be if there were no rules for passing lanes and slow lanes on the freeway.

Perhaps we could use our collective efforts to develop a more sophisticated landing pattern. One that takes into account the extreme differences in canopy speeds. I would hate to try to land a piper cub at LAX without air traffic control.

GravityGirl :
I just wanted to say that your comment in the incidents thread for Dec.31Eloy is bang on. I hope it didn't get lost in the fray. Sorry for hijacking your thread for this Zig. I'm not really interested in going near that incidents thread. It is way too heated, even for me. We learn from fatalities, and these last two were huge. I think a lot of positive will come out of it in the end.


shall555  (D 7231)

Jan 1, 2007, 9:51 PM
Post #13 of 44 (2193 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Heh. At our DZ, a bad approach decision gets the raised eyebrow + stern lecture treatment for the first screwup.

More than one and I think they take ya out behind the hangar for a "Come to Yahweh" meeting...

It's not usually a problem at our low-traffic club, though.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 1, 2007, 10:05 PM
Post #14 of 44 (2188 views)
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Re: [scratch69] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I think a lot of positive will come out of it in the end.
I hope so but I doubt it, they are not the 1st 2 people to die in this same mannerUnsureUnimpressedthe lessons spoken about on the other incidents are being repeated today, and still epople are doing the same shit


DJmikeD  (B 49757)

Jan 1, 2007, 10:58 PM
Post #15 of 44 (2171 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

My last jump I had this situation. As I maid final approach I looked down with next to no wind from the north. I did see that most were making a left handed patturn landing to the south. I maid a righ handed patturn as I did the entire day landing to the north. Once I touched down I got a little talking to by one of the camera flyers and simply asked why I did what I did. I told him it was because the wind was out of the north. He then told me that there was no wind and I should have followed the rest of the divers with their pattern. I maid the mistake of assuming that the guy in front of me was going with the wind to exstend his swoop. Another instructor came to me and talked a bit more about the situation and explained why we have the rule because of the Tree line to the north. He then told me that this time it was not that big a deal because I was the last one in but I should always assume there is someone right behind me comming in as well.


jshatzkin  (A License)

Jan 2, 2007, 7:40 AM
Post #16 of 44 (2029 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

Most DZ's I have been to (6 total) are really good at enforcing the landing pattern rules. However, there was one particular DZ I visited in the Northwest that scared me. When I asked to see an ariel map and asked about landing patterns, I was told, "We are laid back here. The landing area is huge." That should have been my first clue. Especially since I had just finished a great canopy control and landing course by Scott Miller.

That same jump, I was executing a nice left hand pattern into the wind when out of nowhere, someone hook turned, dropping major altitude, and was poised for a head-on collision with me at 300 ft. He literally came out of nowhere, because my head is always on a swivel when I land. I started to steer to the right, per SIM, and he started steering toward his left. I was terrified and froze. At the last second, we swiped by each other. Scariest skydiving experience I have had. On the ground he said "Wow, that was close. You turn to the left right?"

I was appalled. Obviously a series of mistakes could have left 2 people dead. The worst thing was that the owner and S&TA were watching and never mentioned a word. I will never skydive there again.

I have been to Eloy, and I agree that they have and enforce the best landing rules I have seen.

Edited to Add:
Even then, there are sometimes incidents as we have seen this past weekend. It is crucial to always review your landing pattern PRIOR to loading the plane. As Scott Miller said,...we are good at planning and executing our freefall dives, but not enough people plan and execute a good landing plan. Too many people wait until their chute is opened to decide how and where they will land.


(This post was edited by jshatzkin on Jan 2, 2007, 8:04 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jan 2, 2007, 8:51 AM
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Re: [DSE] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Mike Swanson was first canopy down, and he'd landed downwind with a light breeze blowing... the S&TA .. his exact words were "Sometimes you gotta take one for the team, or else land way away from the grass.".

If a DZ has the policy that everyone follows the first one landing, I think the policy should also require landing into the wind. Just like "spotting for the load", you need to "land for the load" in this case and not force newbies (later exits and slower canopy descent rates) to do downwinders - if you can't hack that, then you should do your downwinder elsewhere.

I'd rather see the ST&A chew out the downwinder and send him to a different landing area, than those that are trying to land 'safe'.

We don't need people racing down to be the first one down just because they need their swoop and don't like to walk a bit farther. I can see policies like this driving just that behavior.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jan 2, 2007, 8:55 AM
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Re: [jshatzkin] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
there was one particular DZ I visited in the Northwest that scared me.

I've only been really disturbed at one midwest DZ (not named here). The local "swooping experts" would come into the "experienced landing area" (again, the short walk) from all directions. At this 4-way meet, I saw 3 canopy collisions (during the surf), 4 tree strikes. They had 2 trees they used as 'gates', on 4 separate occasions, I saw the 'swoopers' abort to the turf because two jumpers would try to swoop the gates from the opposite directions.

When I asked about canopy training, the manifest noted that this was done and pointed at two guys. The same guys committing most of the offenses above.

We started out landing in the so-called 'experience' landing area, but quickly moved away in the interests of self preservation.

Too bad, too. It was a really fun DZ and the people were very nice.

and, NO, I won't name the DZ


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jan 2, 2007, 8:56 AM)


jshatzkin  (A License)

Jan 2, 2007, 9:10 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with ya, I won't name the DZ either, but I refuse to jump there again.

I certainly am a LOT less experienced than you, so am not neccessarily arguing your other post when you stated
Quote:
I'd rather see the ST&A chew out the downwinder and send him to a different landing area, than those that are trying to land 'safe'.

However, I have received training from Arizona Airspeed and been to a great canopy control course. Both say that in most cases you don't die or get seriously injured from a downwind or crosswind landing, however, people do die and collide from making low turns to "land into the wind". Some people become so focused on "landing into the wind" that other safety measures are compromised. That is why you must choose the landing pattern prior to the jump. Choose it landing into the wind and if the wind changes before you land, oh well. So you might get dusty or embarassed. Some canopy control courses have you purposely execute crosswind and downwind landings. This is just what some very experienced and reputable people have taught me. I am curious to hear other opinions.


Amazon  (D License)

Jan 2, 2007, 9:49 AM
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Re: [GravityGirl] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah... I got a talking to once at this place called Byron....Angelic

At Eloy for this boogie there were people of ALL experience levels from ALL over the world... the staff were constantly on the PA system telling people about the RULZ.... That being said.. I saw more stupid landing tricks there this time by people than I care to see.... I really wish my oh so proper sensi had taught us how to swear in Japanese. I solved my landing issue by just letting the individuals land to the south in the main landing area or one of them just to the north of it. I got into brakes and just sank it in to the desert outside the landing area. Had I landed as I COULD have I would have been landing to the east from over the tetrahedron as the RULZ dictate for a crosswind landing.

It was a fairly busy dangerous sky for a boogie.... being in the RIGHT does not neccisarily save your ass....I went with safe.... and a few mumbled japanese words as I walked back past this individual.

I figured the best course of action was to bring it up with their coach so she could fluently inform them of my feelings.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 2, 2007, 10:30 AM
Post #21 of 44 (1899 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

>If a DZ has the policy that everyone follows the first one landing,
>I think the policy should also require landing into the wind.

In strong winds I agree. But in light winds, I think it's more important to set one specific direction than to figure out which way the wind is coming from. Keep in mind that at many DZ's (like perris) the winds can change directions three times within a minute. In cases like that I think it's better to set the direction in the "standard" direction (north, at perris) than to try to puzzle out what the winds are doing.

In other words, the primary rule should be follow the first person who lands. A secondary rule is that the first one down should follow the tetrahedron/streamer/windsock if there is enough wind for it to be obvious.

>I'd rather see the ST&A chew out the downwinder and send him to a different landing area . . .

Well, I think the S+TA should chew him out if he lands downwind in a strong wind, but should chew out the guy landing opposite a lot more strongly. Landing downwind can stain your jumpsuit; landing against traffic can kill two people.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 2, 2007, 11:11 AM
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Re: [billvon] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, just for point of info, the tetra was pointed in the direction I landed. There wasn't enough wind to have moved it. Additionally, I was landing in the direction of the flags, which were barely fluttering.
I was in the wrong, and know it, but also didn't care for the "take one for the team." When I brought up that the downwinder could have been a showoff daredevil (which Mike isn't), he responded with...well...we've got all this large area away from the grass.
that's a fair enough response regardless of how experienced or not, the first jumper may have been.
If nothing else, I learned how to land downwind with a 4-5 mph wind blowing as a result.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jan 2, 2007, 12:41 PM
Post #23 of 44 (1839 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems that your response agrees with me once you understand my point. I do want everyone to follow the first jumper's lead and have a single landing direction. I just think the first jumper shouldn't intentionally downwind it (in the main landing area) since they are setting landing direction for everybody at that point, not themselves.

I just think that "take one for the team" should apply more often to the first one down (with that set of rules), not the entire rest of the load. (I guess in my world, both jumpers should have done something different, the downwinder for 'forcing' the entire load to follow suit, the other jumper for not following the rule once stuck with a poor landing direction)

With streamers, pennants, wind socks, etc, it's not hard to determine wind direction, even in light winds. And when the winds are light, it matters less.

edit: note I'm talking in general, in this specific instance, I really have no info on whether the first down could tell the wind direction or not. At our DZ, we set landing direction on days that are 'very' light and variable. Otherwise, it's very easy to see the ground winds.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jan 2, 2007, 12:46 PM)


sagan  (D 29467)

Jan 2, 2007, 5:46 PM
Post #24 of 44 (1726 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

I just think the first jumper shouldn't intentionally downwind it (in the main landing area) since they are setting landing direction for everybody at that point, not themselves.
Interesting you mention that as I just observed that very behavior for the first time at a boogie this past week. The response from the first person down was "well I was the first one down". The response for the second person was, "yea but you also hooked a 270 to do it."

I hung in brakes and watched the melee. I think 8 landed north and 6 landed south. The only thing good about it was that it seems like everyone recognized this on their base before turning final and spread out appropriately. For the record I landed north, but a hundred yards out of the way from either group. -- I rather walk a little bit after every jump instead of being close and not being able to walk anymore.

(This one couldn't have been solved as easily by telling everyone on the load to land north btw as there were two loads that were landing and the group of north and south was mixed between both.)


recovercrachead  (Student)

Jan 2, 2007, 6:15 PM
Post #25 of 44 (1712 views)
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Re: [sagan] Landing Pattern Police [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate the" follow the first guy rule" . Fuck that. I was taught to land in the wind and thats the way I will land. Its a bad rule.

My last jump at DA RANCH on a plane load of 16 we had 5 different landing directions. The ranch is horrible for there canopy flying patterns, small landing area, and gust winds but somehow we remain safe.
But the first guy down is usually "some guy" who is hot dogging it and doesn't care which way he lands or wants to do a downwinder. The first guy can be an idiot so everyone else must follow. Not me, I will land to the side but Im going to land in the wind and tell u to go fuck yourself if you have something to say because you should be talking to "that guy".


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