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Wing Suit Instructor Ratings: Split from Z-Flock Thank You

 

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Buried  (D License)

Dec 17, 2006, 7:23 PM
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Wing Suit Instructor Ratings: Split from Z-Flock Thank You Can't Post

congrats on your good time there! i hope you gave chuck a hard enough time and show back up at zflock.

BTW jeff isn't an BMI or PFI. just proves that you dont need to pay $ in order to be an "instructor" WinkTongue.



edit for thread title ~TA


(This post was edited by TomAiello on Dec 19, 2006, 10:07 PM)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 19, 2006, 6:31 PM
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Re: [Buried] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BTW jeff isn't an BMI or PFI. just proves that you dont need to pay $ in order to be an "instructor

Jeff instructs on Tony Suits only here at Z-hills. He's a fantastic wingsuit flyer, but does not have any instructional ratings whatsoever.

Edited to add: I have offered to train Jeff on the BMI course for free; he hasn't taken me up on the offer. I don't think anybody needs to be "instructing" anyone without any "real" ratings. As USPA doesn't require a BMI or PFI rating to "coach" wingsuting, then Jeff is fine as far as the organization is concerned.

Anyone wanting to come to Z-hills and get a BMI rating, feel free to contact me. My other "real" credentials are listed in my profile.


(This post was edited by SkymonkeyONE on Dec 19, 2006, 6:43 PM)


voodew1  (D 25988)

Dec 19, 2006, 6:38 PM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread could bring back memoriesCool


jakee  (C License)

Dec 19, 2006, 6:51 PM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think anybody needs to be "instructing" anyone without any "real" ratings.

He designs his own wingsuits, couldn't he just make up his own rating now?

(Seems to be how everyone else did itTongue)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 19, 2006, 7:19 PM
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Re: [jakee] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

You believe that? Jari H.M. Kuosma had been an AFF-I for some time before he considered creating a BMI rating so that others could effectively and safely teach others to fly his company's new product. Actually, the first BMI courses were terribly primitive. Plenty of folks early on "proved themselves" informally to get the rating. It was myself and Scott Campos who put the program into a logical sequence and testing process that made it the course it is today. Yes, I believe Jeff has every right to instruct qualified students to fly Tony Suit products. I have seen plenty of his FJC's. Hell, he's one of my best friends! We fly together almost everyday. He teaches a fine course, though he would be far better received if he would get off his ass and get some other ratings or just sit still long enough for me to rate him.

What does any of this have to do with James bringing himself here to the Hills on holiday and having a smashing time with the flock? James is a great guy and I was pleased to have met him and flocked with him many, many times. What was it, James? 28 flocks in less than 10 days? Never mind those other jumps you made with the stinky freeflyers!Tongue

Go fast, take chances, and for God's sake don't wear a helmet!

Chuck
BMCI-4


Buried  (D License)

Dec 19, 2006, 7:42 PM
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Re: [jakee] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't think anybody needs to be "instructing" anyone without any "real" ratings.

He designs his own wingsuits, couldn't he just make up his own rating now?

(Seems to be how everyone else did itTongue)

exactly!

ratings can mean sh*t when teaching (not just in skydiving). it's the person. they should be able to provide the student all the information necessary in order for them (the student) to be safe for themselfs and others.

Sure there is structure involed, but what is to say that I or Jeff (or others) cannot provide that structure which will allow/provide for a student to be sucessful at WS flying. NOTHING. I know AFF-I's that can't teach sh*t or leave things out all the tme.

Do ratings help? sure.
Are they necessary for teaching [wingsuiting]? NO.
Why don't we just start ratings for RW, FF, hybrid, skyboarding instruction, heck, lets to it for BASE and make it easier for the masses so that the students have confidence that when they leave it they wont go inCrazy.

I do hope that if you do consider 'teaching' others you know your stuff and have some experience with it, but that doesn't require ratings. Would someone rather learn from someone with 100 jumps, but happens to be a [newly appointed] BMI, PFI or many of the other qualified people who dont ask for much other than having someone join the flock.

and as said, not like the USPA (or other organizations?) recongnize the rating anyhow. I'm just going to create a structured program called WSI and offer it for 5$ to anyone who wants it. Will all pass? no. so be prepared to divvy up more than $5 if you fail! Jeff you in? I'll offer you the "rating" to you for free too!



Quote:
Edited to add: I have offered to train Jeff on the BMI course for free; he hasn't taken me up on the offer. I don't think anybody needs to be "instructing" anyone without any "real" ratings. As USPA doesn't require a BMI or PFI rating to "coach" wingsuting, then Jeff is fine as far as the organization is concerned.

Anyone wanting to come to Z-hills and get a BMI rating, feel free to contact me. My other "real" credentials are listed in my profile.

Will you do a couse for me for free too? I dont want to waste 300$ on BS. I'll even forego any birdman discounts on suits and "kick-backs" i mean commissions on sold BM suits.

-----------------------------




BTW first WSI ratiing course will be held at Zflock 3.0. Contact me for detailsTongue


if a mod wants to spin this off into another thread, go for it. just dont delete it


Buried  (D License)

Dec 19, 2006, 7:46 PM
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Quote:
he would be far better received if he would get off his ass and get some other ratings or just sit still long enough for me to rate him.

doubtful. i think his skill, and 'learnt' knowledge speak enough for himself.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 19, 2006, 9:31 PM
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Re: [Buried] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

You're funny, Zach. Think what you like, but ask the "previously shit-upon" Texas boys what they think about ratings. I promise you that Jason Weisberg (AFFI-I, PFI, etc) will tell you that ratings are in fact important. Yes, you can get away with doing plenty of shit without a rating, and you might even think yourself righteous for flaunting your "lack of rating". Reading any of the clearly mental-ward-bound "Calvin19" posts make that clear. Still, If you are just out there inventing your own shit without any concept of teaching structure, then you are going to come across as a laughing stock, no matter what your own flying ability might be. I have failed plenty of people in the BMI course who could fly, yet not teach a ground course. Or, conversely, who could teach a ground course, yet could not get within 100 feet of an evaluator. That, of course, only applies to wingsuit courses which have an air evaluation.

If you show up here with the right qualifications (read: real ratings, like my AFF, tandem, SL ratings, and my PRO ticket), then yes, I might run you through the course for free (actually, my cost). Personally, I don't really want to train guys that don't have other ratings these days; It "cheapens" the course. I relish the opportunity to train guys with "names" (like I had as early as 1999) who I can guarantee with go out and train others in a truly professional manner. Early on, BirdMan qualified a few people that had plenty of wingsuit experience to pass the course, yet had no clout at their home DZ's upon return. That was simply a product of having to get people in the field who could at least do the basic training to get experienced skydivers with more than 500 jumps safely in the air. These days, If you have no real ratings, and are not a dealer for the company I evaluate for (BM), then no, you are not going to get rated for free, if at all, even with proven airskills. I don't even want to train you If you don't. If you think it's cool to train people to fly wingsuits at your home DZ and your DZO is cool with it, then go on with your bad self. Just don't think you're ever going to get any real love from the guys that started this shit or the other "real" instructors on your DZ.

Pleasure? Pain! Pleasure? Pain!

Choose your medicine.

Chuck
BMCI-4


(This post was edited by SkymonkeyONE on Dec 19, 2006, 9:35 PM)


Professor  (D 26067)

Dec 19, 2006, 9:49 PM
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Re: [Buried] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
doubtful. i think his skill, and 'learnt' knowledge speak enough for himself.

No, they don't, and that's the problem. Prospective students don't know how capable a prospective instructor is. You and I can jump with someone and make a judgement on their flying skills, and you and I can observe someone teaching an FFC and make a judgement on their teaching ability, but someone who has never jumped a wingsuit before, and may not have tons of skydiving experience in general, can't make those calls. They have to go on credentials, be it either an endorsement from experienced jumpers, or a rating.


Premier TomAiello  (D 22400)
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Dec 19, 2006, 10:07 PM
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Re: [Buried] Wing Suit Instructor Ratings: Split from Z-Flock Thank You [In reply to] Can't Post

I've split this discussion off of the Z-Hills Flock Thank You thread.


Premier TomAiello  (D 22400)
Moderator
Dec 19, 2006, 10:12 PM
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Re: [TomAiello] Wing Suit Instructor Ratings: Split from Z-Flock Thank You [In reply to] Can't Post

Three thoughts:

1) Ratings don't necessarily make you a better instructor, but they do help you to convince people who don't know about your discipline that you've put in the effort to teach well (and safely). That can help you convince a DZO (or whoever) to let you teach on their turf.

2) Following a standardized instructor certification doesn't necessarily generate a better instructor or curriculum. It's very possible that someone could have extensive teaching experience from something totally unrelated (being a SCUBA instructor, or an instructor pilot, or heck, an actual school teacher) and translate that into a very effective self-designed curriculum.

3) If you're serious about providing good instruction, taking at least one of the various instructor courses offered ought to be a minimum first step. Taking such a course is by far the easy--not the hard--way to get started. The hard way is to start from the ground up and develop the entire curriculum and teaching methodology yourself.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Dec 19, 2006, 11:57 PM
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Re: [TomAiello] Wing Suit Instructor Ratings: Split from Z-Flock Thank You [In reply to] Can't Post

More of a personal issue...

4. If you're teaching someone to fly wingsuits without a rating, and something goes wrong, and the family sues you (its still the USATongue) you're probably in a load of trouble, as you didnt have the correct ratings to be teaching that person..


MarkM  (C 35089)

Dec 20, 2006, 12:04 AM
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Re: [mccordia] Wing Suit Instructor Ratings: Split from Z-Flock Thank You [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
More of a personal issue...

4. If you're teaching someone to fly wingsuits without a rating, and something goes wrong, and the family sues you (its still the USATongue) you're probably in a load of trouble, as you didnt have the correct ratings to be teaching that person..

Well, if that's a case you're worried about, I'd also make sure I was teaching students on the manufacturer's gear I was rated for.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Dec 20, 2006, 4:18 AM
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Re: [jakee] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

 
He designs his own wingsuits, couldn't he just make up his own rating now?

(Seems to be how everyone else did itTongue)
I don't have my own brand of wingsuit but if I did nobody is going to have a peeps say as to whether or not my instructional program meets any quantifiable specification other than myself overall. The DZOs,DZMs, S&TA can do as they ( and should) please and make sure my hypothetical course meets the needs of the applicant. And this was not a calvin 19 post!

Actually its a shame of a burdened placed upon someone who just wants to perfect the product and make it user friendly.

I think of all of the volumes of information that Robie has published, some of it rudimentary and some of it for the advanced wingsuit pilot and he still can't get people to stop thinking of wingsuits as expensive camera suits that you fly for max time in instead of distance speed and effective glide. I would expect more from from all of those highly rated,qualified and experienced wingsuit specific instructors out there.


voodew1  (D 25988)

Dec 20, 2006, 4:38 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're funny, Zach. Think what you like, but ask the "previously shit-upon" Texas boys what they think about ratings.

We are still shit upon -- but we 'may' be better protected in case of some sort of accident.

In reply to:
Or, conversely, who could teach a ground course, yet could not get within 100 feet of an evaluator. That, of course, only applies to wingsuit courses which have an air evaluation.

Some of us made our own teaching curriculum which involves that non required air coaching on the first jump -- but we just do it so it costs the student moreShocked....not really we usually pay our own slot 'cause thats how we roll down in Texas

In reply to:
I have failed plenty of people in the BMI course

Lot of good that did you they just went some place else and paid someone else for the rating -- you know I am right

In reply to:
If you think it's cool to train people to fly wingsuits at your home DZ and your DZO is cool with it, then go on with your bad self. Just don't think you're ever going to get any real love from the guys that started this shit or the other "real" instructors on your DZ.

Thats what I find wrong --- why hate the guy thats trying to promote what we all love -- just because he doesn't have some letters -- how about make sure he is being complete in his training and offering some sort of 'deal' when he has the money to take the courses needed or to help a brotha out and give him the course and tell him/her to pay me when you can ------ I bet you get money wicked fuckin quick that way

Zach I am so glad you have taken over where I left off - keep up the good fight, but know that Chuck is not the enemy -- now Ed on the other handSly -- but not Chuck

Sincerely 'and I quote from the past'
That fucker Jason from TexasTongue

only a few will get that oneLaugh


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Dec 20, 2006, 5:09 AM
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Re: [Professor] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

  They have to go on credentials, be it either an endorsement from experienced jumpers, or a rating.
Chuck makes a reference to the early hasty days of the BMI and the desire not to cheapen it again. There was a time when that rating didn't mean much ( at least around here, not sure it does yet) in fact it proved for some comical bonfire conversation and even more hilarious flying if you were lucky enough to have some select BMIs grace your flight plan.

Now I know I give BMIs a hard time but officially some are some of my very best friends, and they can take it. Eddy P is a phenomenally generous guy very well rated , well respected. Greg F flew with us for years even back in the pirate instructor days and most of can't touch his flying. And I pick on Chuck but the truth is I respect him he is generous with his resources and booze. He is a very fun guy and skilled flyer.

But I like to pick on the BM brand of I for every incident, event or negative encounter in regards to BMIs not just locally but the ones we hear about from all over the world. I can count more than a few and know there are those that we never hear about. IMO the BMIs have PR issues that the other brands don't have. And hopefully in time this will change. Things have been quiet for now but for all the of the rated frauds and hacks that are still lurking we will keep our ears and our cameras opened, on and focused just for you.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Dec 20, 2006, 5:38 AM
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Re: [VectorBoy] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

I was not trying to be "brand specific" here. I simply used BM and the BMI rating as it is what I personally do. I own a Vampire too, but don't train students on it. Ultimately, I just think it's smartest to be the most-qualified instructor you can be. If that means that Tony Suits is going to create their own instructor program, then that's fantastic. I was sitting right there next to Jeff and Flora as they were producing their first flight manual. I gave them all my BM stuff as reference so that they would not have to start from ground zero. It's not rocket science; the fundamentals of flying a wingsuit, no matter which wingsuit, are all the same. The only thing Jeff and Flora had to expound upon was the different way the suit is rigged and the different wing cutaway systems on their suits.

Some might read it that I was bagging on Jeff and his ability; that's not the case. He's a great wingsuit pilot/cameraman/instructor. He just needs some ratings. That's nothing I don't say to his face all the time, so if any of you construe that as "shit talking" then I don't care.

At this point, I am not sure another brand-specific wingsuit instructor rating is needed. Still, if Tony Uragallo and Jeff Nebelkopf want to create one I will gladly help them out with their POI. That's how I roll down here in Z-hills. There is lots and lots of wingsuit love here.

Chuck


jakee  (C License)

Dec 20, 2006, 5:47 AM
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In reply to:
You believe that?

No not really, it was just a joke!
I was lucky to get my FFC at the same time some experienced birds were getting BMI ratings from Jari so I've seen that its taken seriously.

Having said that, if you want to be serious how much would it take for jeff or tony to set up their own rating. Plagiarise the BMI/PFI course (not that I would condone that), add in tony suit specific EPs and bingo! Like you said, whether or not it would be a 'real' rating only depends on if people accept it as one.

Anyway, 30 flocks in a week and a bit? I got to get me to Z-Hills one of these days!


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Dec 20, 2006, 5:57 AM
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 I didn't take it as you were bagging on Jeff or anybody else to include Matt. And I know you hold instructorship in high regard and want the most in its quality.

I was simply pointing out that in some regions there is a belief that the Shenanigans of a few BMIs didn't jive with a "positive" promotion of the whole wingsuit experience, which really is one of their primary tasks. Some could be regarded less than safe as advertised. This tarnished the badge. Its a PR thing, it can be turned around, but time will tell.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 20, 2006, 6:31 AM
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Re: [Buried] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

Jeff has first dibs on the WSI program. I have some rudimentary drawings and notes he made TWO YEARS AGO regarding this very topic - including the drawing on my fridge in the bus!. WSI is something he has stated he wants to create within the USPA ratings system. The brand specific training and ratings don't mean too much given how they were "cheapened" over the last few years as you all have mentioned in this thread. Some of them seem to have simply been given to a few without ANY intruction/teaching skills/flying skills at all. Given all that Jeff has done for all of us, WSI 1 should be his...IF like Chuck says he puts the effort into getting some ratings.
COME ON JEFF!!!! The people you need to help you accomplish this are all around you this time of year!
Cool


mccordia  (D 94775)

Dec 20, 2006, 6:47 AM
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Re: [normiss] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The brand specific training and ratings don't mean too much given how they were "cheapened" over the last few years as you all have mentioned in this thread.

Dont you mean the opposite?
training and ratings have improved dramaticly the last few years. Especialy when it comes to safety, and the lessons learnt in the field..
If any, its the people with ratings from before that time that are 'cheapening' the current system...

The people currently training new PFI/BMI's are doing top notch work as far as Ive witnissed...

The programs that are currently here (not looking at the specific suit rigging) already ARE suitable for wingsuiting as a whole..and its mostly the people complaining who are looking at it way to brand-specific...


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 20, 2006, 7:02 AM
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Maybe my experience IS with the old-school types then...and I must add that the PFI's that helped me get started were very thorough. BUT - I have personally witnessed the "I" rating given away to some I thought almost dangerous in the sky. I don't see that the brand specific portions are infact very different from each other much like Chuck said - just the specifics regarding the suit you're jumping.
I personally believe and support ratings systems completely...which is part of why I don't understand the need for brand specific ratings....unless we were to approach it like tandem ratings...one USPA rating along with brand specific rating to address the uniqueness of the brands.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Dec 20, 2006, 7:40 AM
Post #23 of 54 (1288 views)
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In reply to:
Zach I am so glad you have taken over where I left off - keep up the good fight, but know that Chuck is not the enemy -- now Ed on the other handSly -- but not Chuck

Sincerely 'and I quote from the past'
That fucker Jason from TexasTongue

only a few will get that oneLaugh

This thread should be marked as repost, or in Bonfire. It's all shit thats been worn out before. If skydivers are going to instruct other skydivers to fly wingsuits, have a plan, teach them safely and throughly. If you do have a rating or not, and something happens, your probably going to get sued by the relatives anyway, it's the US. Crazy

And Jason, as far as me being the enemy. It's early, how about a big ol' cup of shut the fuck up? Wink


Be safe
Ed


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Dec 20, 2006, 7:53 AM
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And Jason, as far as me being the enemy. It's early, how about a big ol' cup of shut the fuck up? Wink


Be safe
Ed
Jason is just seeing if you'll bite. He would normaly be teasing Chuck at this point but wants Chuck to feel at ease when he approaches Jason about some PFI coaching for his V-1 the next time they hook up at the peanut.Cool Jason will need some few extra bucks to pay for his Silestone counter which will be his ticket to boogie freedom. Shocked


Premier TomAiello  (D 22400)
Moderator
Dec 20, 2006, 7:57 AM
Post #25 of 54 (1265 views)
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Re: [VectorBoy] Z-Hills Flock - THANKYOU [In reply to] Can't Post

All (just replying to the last post),

I've moved the discussion of socialist bicycles to Speakers' Corner, where it belongs. Let's keep that stuff out of here.

Thanks!


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