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Line over

 

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starzwithaz  (A License)

Jul 5, 2001, 10:06 PM
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Line over Can't Post

Would like some input as to what you would do in a similar situation.

Jump 22, major Line over, spin started slow (Sabre 260) and progressed into a serious G force spin. I was completely aware and ready to react. I pumped the breaks one time...nothing happened,,,,pumped them again......nothing... another short bang ......looked up still spinning. At this point I could feel the G forces in my leg straps. My altitude was 2600 AGL at this point and I said to myself "I do not want my first reserve ride" and pulled one more time really hard (the fourth time).

Thank God the line over came across the top of the canopy and I was flying straight.

This happened to be a coach jump with Sky-U. His opinion was ,you watched your altitude and cleared your malfunction...."good job".
The trainer at the school said..."you should have cut away immediately, because you have no idea how much damage the line caused when it strafed across the top of the canopy".

What would you have done?
Starzwithaz



lazerq3  (C -34113)

Jul 5, 2001, 10:23 PM
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

First off I'll say nice job for keeping your cool and working the problem!!!!!Second, for me and this is just me I would have given the riser (or that line)that the line group was in that was causing the line over a couple good tugs to try and clear it. Again for me if I'm pulling at 3000ft, my dissicion altitude or hard deck is 2000ft. So depending on the mal,in this case a line over I would have worked it to 2000ft and then no matter what if I'm not in absolute control....CHOP CHOP PORK CHOP!!!!HOwever if the line over caused a severe spin right from the start say 2500ft I would chop it right away!!!! But eitherway some people will agree with your chioce and some will disagree but you make the over all call and you walked away from this one. Agian nice job. I would look over the chute or have a rigger check it out though for damage!

jason



DZBone  (D 14358)

Jul 5, 2001, 10:26 PM
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have cut it much earlier, but it sounds like your approach worked. You had the time, it was still controllable, why not?

The only thing you might want to consider is how much time you would have before getting so out of control that a cutaway would either be not possible, or toss you silly. Some folks have redded out at these Gs also, which is something to take into account.

Nice work, tho.



what42  (Student)

Jul 5, 2001, 10:28 PM
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure what you should have done but when I had 2 canopies out I learned something. Everyone will have a different opinion on what to do but the only one that matters is you. They aren't up there with the situation. You're the best person to make that call.

Wesley
--
I'll see you at 13,5 amongst the clouds.


spectre230
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Jul 6, 2001, 12:12 AM
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lazerq3  (C -34113)

Jul 6, 2001, 12:29 AM
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would chop as soon as I saw the line over.A line over can rip a canopy to shreds when you try to clear it.It is most often caused by a packing error.Who packed the main for you?
OOOOOH!!! good point... better to pay for a 40$ repack (or what ever you pay) than a 600$ to whatever 1000$ chute from ripping it!!!!Of coarse there it is again ...your chute, your life, your decission. Make it a good one!!Wink

jason



Zennie

Jul 6, 2001, 8:02 AM
Post #7 of 37 (3509 views)
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

FWIW, I don't have a problem with what you did.

I've talked to my instructors before about lineovers and they all try to clear 'em... usually with success.

The big considerations are altitude & how bad your canopy was spinning. Your altitude seemed OK, so the big question would be how bad the spin was. You definitely don't want to wait until the forces prevent you from reaching your handles. So I'd prolly try to clear it until I reached my hard deck or I started feeling the canopy going into a hard spin.



------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jul 6, 2001, 8:26 AM
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

My tiny little main? I would have had to chop immediately. A larger demo parachute or something? I would have cut the line with my hook knife and probably landed it.

Chuck



GeekStreak  (Student)

Jul 6, 2001, 8:37 AM
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad you made it through. It sounds like you were very aware and did the right thing or you wouldn't be around to post. Smile

I think I would have done it differently, though. I was taught to chop a line-over mal. I would have cut ASAP. $$ is never a consideration in the air and I would hate to be in a G spin and not be able to reach/find handles (as I have read about here and elsewhere).

Just my $0.02 Smile

1111,
GeekStreak


Grogs  (D 24265)

Jul 6, 2001, 2:01 PM
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, as we tell first-jump students... here's the book answer, but... your butt's swinging under that parachute, not mine, so it's your decision (usually during one of the 'controversial' topics like horseshoes or 2 canopies out). Having said that, I think that was pretty heads up of you. I probably would have seen the line-over and chopped it, but I have seen my DZO trying to work a line-over out on a 105 (not long and not successfully I might add) so you're certainly not alone in what you did.



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Jul 6, 2001, 7:18 PM
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In reply to:
What would you have done?
It would depend on what type/size of canopy I was jumping and what my altitude was.. If I have time, I'll try to clear it by pumping the brakes.. If that doesn't work, pull out one of my 3 handy dandy hook knives and cut the offending line.. If the line is WAY in, I would probably skip the pumping and just cut the line so as to prevent more damage to the canopy..

If the canopy is spinning fast enough that I can't effectively work, or my altitude is not sufficient, I'd chop it and not think twice.. I do, however, prefer NOT to test my reserve unless ABSOLUTELY, 100% necessary.. If I can safely solve the problem without chopping, I'll do it..

Mike



spectre230
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Jul 6, 2001, 11:37 PM
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cloud9  (D 27635)

Jul 7, 2001, 4:59 AM
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In reply to:
Another thing to think about.You are open at 3000',you decide to land it,and at less than 1000'the line cuts through a cell.What then?
I think we kinda what if things to death. What if you chop it and the reserve malfunctions? You have to deal with the cards your dealt each jump.

You jumped, you lived, you learned. Good job!




Michele  (B 26874)

Jul 7, 2001, 7:35 AM
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I have held off til now, because I wanted to see what everyone else said. They are far more experienced than I, (most everyone is.....). And everything I may say is subject to the axiom: your life, your chute, your choice.

When I had my mal (AFF 3), I cut away. I was high enough to fight it out with my canopy, but that never crossed my mind. Why? Because I was spinning. Hard. Scared me to see the ground gyrating under me. The decision for me was easy - centrifugal force made it for me.

After that jump, did I have second thoughts about the cut away? Of course. Did I replay that over (and over and over) in my head? You betcha. Did anyone fault me for getting a good, safe canopy over my head? Nope, not a one. Have we figured out what exactly happened to cause it? No. I was (and still am) too inexperienced to be able to totally identify what was wrong, and anything determined now I feel may be colored by retrospect and additional education (although we figure it was either a line over and/or an unstowed brake line, or both). Since my mal, I have had many people at my dz tell me they fought something down too low, and feel as if they should have cut away. What boggles my mind is some of the reasons I was given for NOT cutting away: "It's several jump tickets to replace the pillow", "my girlfrind was watching and I didn't want to scare her", "well, it didn't occur to me until I was at about 1500 feet". "I knew I had a Cypres, so I wasn't worried". Granted, their problems weren't spinning, and they all survived to tell the tale.

But these reasons!

My life is not measured by how much a pillow costs. My life is not counted in how many scares I avoid giving my family (I still haven't told my Dad about this). And I am not waiting for a Cypres to fire (it didn't even occur to me that there was one until someone reminded me hours after the event). My choice was based on getting home safely.

I am not saying I made the best choice, or the one you should have made. But I am saying to all those who lurk, read, and wonder: don't let ego or money cost you your life. Please.

Ciel bleu -
Michele



GeekStreak  (Student)

Jul 7, 2001, 10:15 AM
Post #15 of 37 (3392 views)
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In reply to:
My choice was based on getting home safely.

<snip>

... I am saying to all those who lurk, read, and wonder: don't let ego or money cost you your life. Please.
As usual, Michelle, you said it best Smile!!

1111,
GeekStreak
M-00001


Zennie

Jul 7, 2001, 10:40 AM
Post #16 of 37 (3390 views)
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In reply to:
I am not saying I made the best choice, or the one you should have made. But I am saying to all those who lurk, read, and wonder: don't let ego or money cost you your life. Please.
Definitely agree with you. But not all of us would work the lineover first for financial or ego reasons. For some of us, it is for safety reasons that we're reluctant to just chop and go to reserve right off the bat.

I'm with Aviatr in my philosophy. My reserve is my absolute last resort. It's my last chance. There's no other backup. I'm only going to deploy it if there's no other option available to me.

So if I deploy my main into a lineover, and I'm not going into a spin. I'm going to try to clear it. I'll try working the brakes first to pop it out... which works a lot of the time (according to folks who have had this happen). If that doesn't work I'll cut the brake lines and come in with rear risers.

Only if I go straight into a spin, or if the above two measures don't work am I going to get rid of my main. Again, not because of ego or money, but because I believe it's safer to try and land my main. If something else happens (God knows what) I'll still have my reserve available to me.

Each person has to do what is right for them. I view the cutaway/reserve like an ejection seat. I'm not going to do it unless I'm in an unrecoverable situation. If I am, damn straight I'm gonna use it.


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


Zennie

Jul 7, 2001, 10:44 AM
Post #17 of 37 (3390 views)
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In reply to:
Another thing to think about.You are open at 3000',you decide to land it,and at less than 1000'the line cuts through a cell.What then?
I wouldn't still have a lineover at 1000. I'd have a landable main at 1800 or it's going bye-bye. 1800 is my hard deck.


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


starzwithaz  (A License)

Jul 7, 2001, 10:52 AM
Post #18 of 37 (3390 views)
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point!!!
If the line-over had not cleared on the fourth tug/hail mary, I would have said "Bye Bye" to my main. My immediate response after it cleared was "Thank God I don't have to chop" I then did my control check, control check, control check. I was just under 2000 AGL and flying great.
I had no idea how badly my legs were shaking until I stood up on them.

Thanks Spectre230 and everyone else for all your input. This is a awesome Forum for sharing leg shakers.
Starz

Blue Skies and Sandy Beaches
DSF


Michele  (B 26874)

Jul 7, 2001, 6:59 PM
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Zennie, you have made me think. I read your response, and at first it pissed me off. Why? Because I thought you were criticizing me about my decision to cut away, that perhaps I should have fought it (which is something that I do think about); and about what I had posted about pride and wallet. And it is because I so respect you that I refrained from immediately responding.

I was not being critical of any of the postings here. I was being critical of those people who weigh the financial costs of cutting away, actually thinking "nope, will cost me $". It's this type of thinking that, I feel, may get a person into more trouble rather than eradicate/temporize the problem. The person who was worried about scaring his girlfriend has about 25 jumps - and his death would have scared her more.

I completely agree that using the reserve is the last resort; but not using it *because* it may cost you a few jump tickets is ridiculous. My personal situation had become untennable; I was face down, spinning, and I had zero control - nothing in my hands, nothing in reach, nothing I could do. I was spinning so fast that when I cut away, according to someone who watched it from under canopy, I went sideways during freefall, arching and free spinning while I pulled the silver. (I don't recall this whatsoever.) His exact words? "You got flung away from your main, and I held my breath until you whipped it out".

I realize that I am not angry at you. No reason to be. I guess I am upset because I have fought second guessing myself, and don't want to feel that I should have done something different. I have been so concerned about repeating this mal (did I do something to cause it? Did I complicate things? Did I make the right decision, did I do right? Huh? What could I have done differently?) that I had a talk with a good friend of mine who jumps, and he pointed out that it had not happened prior to, nor since, the mal, and that it seems to be just one of those things. I am still insecure about my capabilities, even though the empirical data would suggest that I am capable in handling myself.

Maybe in about 50 (or 100 or 500) jumps, I will be more competent to control the situation. By then, I will have more education and technical expertise under a canopy, and will be able to get control of this type of thing. But maybe, if this happens again to me, I will make the same choice. I'll let you know then.

But you will never hear me say "I cut away too low because I didn't want to spend the $50 to replace the pillow". Then again, you may never hear it from someone who thinks that, either; they may not be here to say it.

Ciel bleu -
Michele



<FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by michele on 7/7/01 07:01 PM.</EM></FONT>


Zennie

Jul 7, 2001, 7:51 PM
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In reply to:
I read your response, and at first it pissed me off. Why? Because I thought you were criticizing me about my decision to cut away, that perhaps I should have fought it...My personal situation had become untennable; I was face down, spinning, and I had zero control - nothing in my hands, nothing in reach, nothing I could do. I was spinning so fast that when I cut away, according to someone who watched it from under canopy, I went sideways during freefall
Man, between you and Merrick, I seem to be pissing everybody off lately. Frown

Your situation, and the one we're discussing here are completely different. This is all situational. That's what I'm trying to get across.

If I were in your situation I would have done exactly the same thing. You were in a hard spin. You can't work that. Adios main! Hello reserve!

Please, don't second-guess yourself. You did the right thing (given what I've read).

I'm only pointing out that a lineover that's not spinning, that's under control, is not necessarily an immediate cutaway situation. Some are fixable. Some are not. Your situation was unfixable so you did the right thing... you got rid of it.

Don't beat yourself up. I should know, I'm just now getting over beating myself up over a close call I had 30 jumps ago. You seem like a very knowledgable, heads-up skydiver. You encountered a problem, you executed your emergency procedures. You're here to talk about it. That's what counts.

And again, if you don't feel comfortable working a mal, by all means cutaway and deploy your reserve. I'm not saying that's wrong. This sport is very situational and dependent on comfort levels. There is no right or wrong way of doing things (other than not pulling -- I think we can all agree on that). Look at the debates on RSLs and Cypres.

I just see this as an information exchange. That's all. Please don't be offended. This is how we all learn. You have no idea how much I've picked up from reading the debates on this board.

------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


starzwithaz  (A License)

Jul 7, 2001, 8:19 PM
Post #21 of 37 (3366 views)
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I do not believe anyone experiencing a mal is thinking about money. SO....... can we drop (no pun intended) that one?
Michelle,
I do not know the details of your spin.It sounds like you were stiff/not relaxed. A completely relaxed body in a relaxed/arched position should not spin, unless you were thrusted from a chop. Even then you would eventually fall stable, given you have the altitude to recover.
I think one of the most unnatuaral things a human can do is relax in a emergency situation. It's a known fact that your vision can decrease, your dexterity (mental and physical) becomes limited in these scenarios. You pulled and lived to talk about it...GOOD JOB!!!
My Sky-U coach always stressed breathing and relaxing. I remember the first time I flipped (oops)onto my back. There I was starring at the blue sky when I wanted to be looking at the farm land below. I was scared to death. I arched with my back to the relitive wind and (what seemed like an eternity)came back belly to earth in a matter of seconds.

Have a great rest of the weekend :)


Nerves of steel and stay relaxed

Blue Skies and Sandy Beaches
Starz


Michele  (B 26874)

Jul 7, 2001, 8:39 PM
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Zennie,

You wrote "the one we're discussing is different". The original post opens with:

Jump 22, major Line over, spin started slow (Sabre 260) and
progressed into a serious G force spin. I was completely aware and
ready to react...."

How is this different? Perhaps the thread had gotten "diffferent", but the original situation seems pretty similar, other than he had something in his hands, and I didn't. I was posting in response to the original post, rather than the topic it may have become.

And I am not - repeating here, NOT - offended; I value the information and the discussions on these boards. I learn something vitally important everyday (such as morphine makes Doasfu very sleepy...). I look to you guys to help me, and teach me, and hold my mental hand. You all are doing something right, and I can only learn from you.

As to me second guessing myself, well, that is the story of my life (rueful lol). I try to not let it get to me too much, but I am jumping tomorrow and am nervous and anxious about it; and so most likely your post triggered a more emotional response than normal.

The young man who was worried about his $$ is a sweetheart, and I want to see what sort of man he grows into; and it bothered me greatly to hear someone say that, so casually and unconcernedly. And my ass wasn't hanging from his harness.

(And just for the record, there is a photo of a line over in the cut away section of our harness room. If we students see it, we are absolutely supposed to cut away). As someone with only 5 jumps, I have no understanding, no real concept, of what to do. I am learning, slowly but surely, about how to take care of myself.

And I value everyone's opinion, and treasure those which make me think. I am a woman, though, and reserve the right to get emotional occasionally for no apparent reason.........

Ciel bleu, and thanks for your response.
Michele



starzwithaz  (A License)

Jul 7, 2001, 9:34 PM
Post #23 of 37 (3358 views)
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Re: Line over [In reply to] Can't Post

You are still On-Line????
GO TO BED!!!
Have a great time jumping tomorrow.
Where do you jump. I am a S.F.V. boy. Graduated from Chatsworth High. Just curious if you do Elsinore or Perris.
Starz

Blue Skies and Sandy Beaches
Starz


Michele  (B 26874)

Jul 8, 2001, 6:41 AM
Post #24 of 37 (3350 views)
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Send me to bed at 8:39 p.m.??????? On a Saturday night? Alone? Geez!

I am in AFF at Perris, so if you're ever there, let me know!!

Ciel bleu-
Michele



DZBone  (D 14358)

Jul 8, 2001, 9:43 AM
Post #25 of 37 (3344 views)
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In reply to:
I do, however, prefer NOT to test my reserve unless ABSOLUTELY, 100% necessary.
Your choice, but I think this is a dangerous approach that will lead people to put off an important decision until too late. Things happen VERY fast up there, and the ground waits for no one.

I take a more conservative approach: try once, try twice, then chop. I have confidence in my reserve, more so than I would a damaged or not-fully-there main. Even my round reserve, whatever winds, etc. won't come into my mind. If I feel I can't land it, I suspect it might become unlandable in the near future, and I have done what I can (TWO attempts only), its gone.

I figure that what the thing is there for! I haven't spent $50 every 120 days just for it to take up space in the container.

But that's me.

Carl




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