Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Is this legal?

 

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lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Dec 6, 2006, 2:37 PM
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Is this legal? Can't Post

This was posted in the bonfire

Quote:
last year, i single handedly taught my best freind how to skydive, i put him in my rig, gave hiom ground school, faked a logbook, then rented him student gear and did a 3way with another freind of mine. he did perfectly and now has 40odd jumps with no 'formal' training

The jumper has 3 years in the sport at approx 100 per year. Am I wrong for being disgusted at this?


wmw999  (D 6296)

Dec 6, 2006, 2:42 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

USPA regulates the teaching of skydiving, not the FAA. It's legal. Probably not real bright, and not real up-front, but legal.

Go look up in the Trivia column how Bill Booth made his first jump.

Wendy W.


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Dec 6, 2006, 2:44 PM
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Re: [wmw999] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
USPA regulates the teaching of skydiving, not the FAA. It's legal. Probably not real bright, and not real up-front, but legal.

Thats horrible. A forged logbook could get the pilot, and DZ in major trouble.

I can understand the old days things being different but this is a different day and age and its just pitiful to me that this happened.


tdog  (D 28800)

Dec 6, 2006, 2:46 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is also posted in the SL vs AFF thread.

Completely legal.

As long as the jumper wears a dual canopy rig, and the reserve was packed by a certified rigger (and some other gear related stuff) - anyone can leave the plane...

The FAA = laws.

The USPA = suggestions.

Now - if there was an incident, the FAA might make new laws.Tongue That is why the USPA makes rules to keep the sport safe enough that the FAA can let us self regulate.

Now - the jumpers and DZs in question could lose their USPA memberships, but that has never stopped people before from jumping.


(This post was edited by tdog on Dec 6, 2006, 2:50 PM)


wmw999  (D 6296)

Dec 6, 2006, 2:47 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

The pilot is responsible for making sure that people have legally-packed reserves in their containers, and that there is clearance to jump where they're going to. There is additional stuff about not being knowingly stupid, but in this case it wasn't knowingly.

There are many dumb things that people are allowed to do.

Wendy W.


tdog  (D 28800)

Dec 6, 2006, 2:49 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Thats horrible. A forged logbook could get the pilot, and DZ in major trouble.

Well - not really the pilot - so as long as the gear was legit.

The DZ could lose their group membership, perhaps, if USPA thought they really were negligent.


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Dec 6, 2006, 2:50 PM
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Re: [tdog] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Completely legal

Bothersome to me.... maybe Im just different though.

Quote:
The FAA = laws.

Ill get flamed for this, but I think there should be laws about our instruction. Were not playing scrabble. Unimpressed

Quote:
The USPA = suggestions

They suggest them for a reason.

Quote:
Now - when theres an incident, the FAA might make new laws.

Fixed it for you as I think thats the case. When is relative though.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Dec 6, 2006, 3:39 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but I think there should be laws about our instruction

Not flaming, just asking you to think about it a little bit more.

Do you want an FAA person (or worse yet, a committee), who may be well-trained in aviation, but not well-trained in skydiving, making decisions about how we ought to be trained? There is no guarantee (and in fact, it will probably be highly unlikely) that there will be people within the FAA knowledable enough about skydiving to make reasonable regulations about what we should and should not do in our training (and I also want to make sure we know we're talking about regulations, not laws ... last thing we need is an act of Congress telling us how to instruct).

Skydiving is a very very small part of the overall aviation infrastructure. If the FAA were to take it on, the level of attention it would recieve would be minimal at best. We would likely end up with a highly draconian set of regulations about instruction, or the FAA would just decide "y'know, it's not worth the effort, let's just outlaw sport skydiving altogether."

We're not running around as outlaws. It's in everyone's best interest to create a community standard. That's what USPA does, and it's one of the things that contributes to the (relatively) bulletproof nature of skydiving waivers.

Self-regulation just makes sense for everyone involved. The USPA knows and the vast majority of skydivers know that it is our best interest to be highly responsible about self-regulation because to be anything less could be the death of the sport.

I doubt that the threat of legal action is going to stop the Calvin19s of the world.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Dec 6, 2006, 3:49 PM)


icevideot  (D 23833)

Dec 6, 2006, 3:51 PM
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Re: [NWFlyer] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"y'know, it's not worth the effort, let's just outlaw sport skydiving altogether."

Sounds a lot like what the park service did with BASE jumping. I agree with you completely that as long as we can be self governed by USPA it is in our best interest to try and comply.


freakflyer9999  (D 99999)

Dec 6, 2006, 4:25 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is what the FAA has to say about the subject in their Advisory Circular 105-2c.


B. Initial Training. The FAA encourages beginning parachutists to seek instruction from a parachuting instructor recognized by the USPA. Initial training sets the foundation for the skydivers continued education and advancement.



tdog  (D 28800)

Dec 6, 2006, 4:32 PM
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Re: [freakflyer9999] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is under the "4. SAFETY SUGGESTIONS" category...

Hence we are full circle to my first post :
USPA = Suggestions...


BTW... I agree, while legal, maybe not smart - especially the deceptive practice of lying to everyone.


(This post was edited by tdog on Dec 6, 2006, 4:35 PM)


recovercrachead  (Student)

Dec 6, 2006, 4:40 PM
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Re: [icevideot] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

WFFC 97 Jumper named is the Bandit Jumping a monark 190. Had to pull at 4000' boggie rules. JUMPS..
1. One Jumper AFF style with jumper with 150 jumps, down landing
2. Two jumpers, 150+250 jumps Aff style, crosswind landing
3. Same as #2 but there was a camera man with 70 jumps, landed into the wind
4. 10 way out of the casa
5. Three way out of the Connie
6. Helicopter
7. Biplane, stand up landing
15. Crew
25. Total malfuction
Somewhere between 60-100 bridge day.


MarkM  (C 35089)

Dec 6, 2006, 5:44 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can understand the old days things being different but this is a different day and age and its just pitiful to me that this happened.

I always wondered why this is a different age and day. Has the human race gotten all grown up in the last 50 years? No more of those silly stupid antics like barn storming, strapping rockets to your body or shooting yourself out of a cannon?

If so, that's sad.


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Dec 6, 2006, 6:40 PM
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Re: Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer, I see your point but I would think that if there became laws about our training the FAA would seek counsel from USPA. Do we need it? Im not sure, I do know that this incident to me should be felt outragous and obvilously its not a self policing sport if this poster can not be held accountable. This isnt a game, this is a sport that can kill. Driving, we have legal mins to ensure that we are capable to drive. Yet legally anyone can decide they want to jump out of a plane, operate their own wing and pose a safety risk to me, and everyone else in the sky, as well as the wuffos, animals etc on the ground.

Quote:
I always wondered why this is a different age and day. Has the human race gotten all grown up in the last 50 years?

Because in this day and age we know the stories of the older generations that did this shit for the first time. We have pioneers in our sport. We have a "guide" of others trial and errors that show what should be done, what is possible, what isnt possible etc etc .... I dont think some hot shot 200 jump wonder is the person that should be able to try to make "history" by NOT being an instructor, and teaching someone and then lie to the dropzone, the pilot and the others on that load. The only reason they did this was to save money, this wasnt Calvins way to be a pioneer, this wasnt paving the road for the sport. This was wreckless , possibly deadly and flat out wrong. He trained someone on the ground, and the mans first jump was a threeway.... the other jumper was not away of this mans lack of experience. I cant believe I am the only one upset over this. Ill respectfully back out at this point.

This is a sorry excuse for self policing if this is what people can do, can admit to, and can get away with.


yamtx73  (B 29458)

Dec 6, 2006, 6:57 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, it's perfectly legal... keep in mind there are dz's out there that aren't USPA group members.
Is it smart? No

Is it moral? I'll leave that up to you to decide for yourself....


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Dec 6, 2006, 6:59 PM
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Re: [yamtx73] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yes, it's perfectly legal... keep in mind there are dz's out there that aren't USPA group members.

But dont those still have training requirements?

Quote:
Is it moral?

I truely feel this is horrific, but its not up to me.


yamtx73  (B 29458)

Dec 6, 2006, 7:02 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Yes, it's perfectly legal... keep in mind there are dz's out there that aren't USPA group members.

But dont those still have training requirements?

Quote:
Is it moral?

I truely feel this is horrific, but its not up to me.

I'm sure they have training requirements but don't know from personal experience. Faking a log book and doing a "3-way" RW jump with your buddies kinda gets around that though..


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Dec 6, 2006, 7:04 PM
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Re: [yamtx73] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm sure they have training requirements but don't know from personal experience. Faking a log book and doing a "3-way" RW jump with your buddies kinda gets around that though..

Thats what bothers me most. Not only should that have legal ramifications but just on the level of the risk he posed to other people. How can we trust people in this sport.... the next time someone tells you they have X amount of jumps, how do you know they are being truthful? Unsure


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 6, 2006, 7:05 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Lisa, the difference between being a "rated" AFF instructor for a decent chunk of the older instructors out there and being "unrated" is paying some money to the USPA each year. To keep your ratings you only have to teach a FJC class and do 1 jump and have the S&TA sign you off. I've seen jumpers across the country go up on AFF jumps even though they have been "unrated" just because they didn't send in their renewal fee.

How is someone that does 1 AFF jump a year but pays their dues a safer instructor then someone that did 200 AFF jumps last year but never sent in their money and then had their rating lapse?

There are lots of different instruction programs out there, I know of 3 different ones at the 3 closest DZ's to me.


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Dec 6, 2006, 7:07 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Lisa, the difference between being a "rated" AFF instructor for a decent chunk of the older instructors out there and being "unrated" is paying some money to the USPA each year. To keep your ratings you only have to teach a FJC class and do 1 jump and have the S&TA sign you off. I've seen jumpers across the country go up on AFF jumps even though they have been "unrated" just because they didn't send in their renewal fee.

How is someone that does 1 AFF jump a year but pays their dues a safer instructor then someone that did 200 AFF jumps last year but never sent in their money and then had their rating lapse?

There are lots of different instruction programs out there, I know of 3 different ones at the 3 closest DZ's to me.

Thats different then the person we are talking about, who has not had instuctor rating and only had 200ish sport jumps.... no training whats so ever, no trials teaching, did not take the person out and even see their stability before putting them on a threeway....


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 6, 2006, 7:09 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, you'll love the program the Air Force does... Approx 30-40 hours training on the ground teaching how to skydive, packing etc then a solo unassited freefall from 8500 feet if I remember right. Its Sink or Swim for the cadets with no one there to save them from the first step out the door.

I kinda like the program and have heard great things from some AF officers that took it.


tdog  (D 28800)

Dec 6, 2006, 7:13 PM
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Re: [lisamariewillbe] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

lisamariewillbe,

Before you start asking for Laws and Regulation by the Government...

I have to ask you - how many incidents occurred because "approved" training procedures were not followed?

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Lets say - you got the FAA to write a law that says "All skydivers will be trained by the USPA ISP and with an appropriately rated instructor."

Show me from the incident reports, who's life that would have saved...

Once you show me the evidence your laws are needed, I will support your laws.Smile

Remember, our sport can be just as dangerous as Kite Surfing, Surfing, Scuba Diving, or Motorcycle racing... Does the government write a law that says, to Scuba, you need to be trained by XYZ? How about laws to "protect" riders on race courses? Lets not make our sport more "special" to the government than other active sports.


(This post was edited by tdog on Dec 6, 2006, 7:15 PM)


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Dec 6, 2006, 7:15 PM
Post #23 of 124 (3289 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im just saying...

1. The person giving his friend training had approx 200 jumps in 2 years

2. No formal instructors or coach course

3. Forged a logbook to cheat the DZ

4. Brought a completle wuffo on a threeway without informing the other participant of the fraud.

I think it says alot about our sport that this is accepted as much as it is.


lisamariewillbe  (A License)

Dec 6, 2006, 7:19 PM
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Re: [tdog] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Okay. Theres really nothing I can say, this apperently is an accepted practice and I am glad I found it out now, that way I am even more aware. Im aware now, thanks all.


mark  (D 6108)

Dec 6, 2006, 7:25 PM
Post #25 of 124 (3277 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Is this legal? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To keep your [AFF] ratings you only have to teach a FJC class and do 1 jump...

It's 15 jumps. Still not much.

In reply to:
How is someone that does 1 AFF jump a year but pays their dues a safer instructor then someone that did 200 AFF jumps last year but never sent in their money and then had their rating lapse?

Well, there is something to be said for attention to detail. That very active instructor must have missed the part on the front of the annual membership renewal form that says $20 (200 jumps = 10 cents a jump) to renew ratings. Or did the membership lapse, too?

Mark


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