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Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book?

 

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ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Oct 31, 2006, 6:26 PM
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Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? Can't Post

Et all,

To start out, I'll be honest and say I spun this off from this...

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

... thread.

NickyD and Bill have said some good things there, IMO, that we shouldn't divest ourselves by saying that folks killing themselves under modern high-performance canopies by hooking themselves in and dieing isn't a skydiving problem; my words for what I think they were trying to say, in part.

Depending on who y'all consider my peers, I haven't been in the sport for a very long time or you could say I have. But anyway, when I got into it back in 93/94, the "hot" canopies were Sabre's, Stilettos and BatWings (and I'm sure there were others to who's names escape me), but the guidance I got from instructors, up-jumpers and the local gear store was that when getting off of student status that the best thing for newbies to do was to downsize from the Manta 288s we were jumping as students to an F111 canopy loaded at about 1:1, no more, put several hundred jumps on it, then maybe we'll let you try a Sabre. Furthermore, I recall hearing talk that gear stores wouldn't even sell you or let you demo a Stiletto unless you had a thousand jumps or very close to it. Back then, the majority of deaths each year were "No Pull", "A Cut-away & No Reserve Pull" or "A Cut-away & a Reserve Pull Too Low To Do Any Good" and the term "Fatal Forties" still applied.

AADs and the proliferation of high-performance canopies have changed that to most deaths are "People Flying Perfectly Good Canopies into the Ground and Killing Themselves".

Heck, I still do a double take when I see someone at the local DZ that I know has only a few hundred jumps jumping a Stiletto or Kitana or hearing someone talk of their "first new rig" and they're getting a Sabre2 to put it it, no matter what the wing-loading. Things sure have changed even during my time in the sport.

Lots of folks will harp on education education education; that canopy piloting classes and maybe even ratings required to pilot high-performance canopies are the answer. Certainly none of that can hurt, but I'm sure someone will be quick to point out you cannot force education on everyone and others will poo-poo more regulation from the USPA along the lines of "Canopy Licenses" for lots of reasons.

However, keeping high-performance canopies out of the sport's modern day "novices" certainly would change the face of the yearly fatality stats.

Also, as callous and morbid as it may sound, possibly putting together something like a "bounce book" for hook-turns may effect a change to. With as many video cameras as there are floating around at DZs these days, you have to know there are many many clips of folks hooking themselves in; either shot ground to air or from a camera the victim wore themselves. Possibly we'd serve ourselves as a community a service if we sucked it up and put emotion aside "not to diss our friends who were "great guys", but hooked it and got hurt or killed" and posting or showing such things around the DZ to show folks what happens when someone hooks it and screws it up. Kind of like those old movies they used to show in drivers-ed in High School what happens when you drink and drive... i.e. those old bloody movies of car wrecks where they're scrapin' drunk drivers guts and brains up after a wreck.

I don't know what the answer is, but dismissing it all as "just another hook turn fatality" or "nothing to learn here" isn't the answer.


(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Oct 31, 2006, 6:31 PM)


Ron

Oct 31, 2006, 8:46 PM
Post #2 of 34 (2851 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem is that most people will not admit they could be next. The dangerous ones think they are not dangerous, and will not listen anyway.They think they are faster, smarter, and way more skilled than those "fools" that hooked in.

And when you try to explain that to them, they claim you don't know their mad skills.

BillV had a good quote about how Jesus himself could tell them they are dangerous and they would claim he didn't know their skills.


peckerhead

Oct 31, 2006, 10:44 PM
Post #3 of 34 (2818 views)
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Re: [Ron] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just prefer to jump at non-swoop dropzones and when I do I stay away from the zoomies and land out if necesary.

Not my thing and I don't need to see the carnage.






kelpdiver  (B 7)

Oct 31, 2006, 10:50 PM
Post #4 of 34 (2813 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure that anything short of eyewitness viewing makes remotely the same impression.

Honestly, I'm recovering from a shouler injury that's fairly akin to a femur in scope and I'm not sure that such a book would make any impression on me if I were interested in a fast tiny canopy. It's just a picture, right?

Sorry, it's not very constructive.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 31, 2006, 11:30 PM
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone keeps selling these canopies to low timers and DZ's keep letting the low timers jump them. I've been to enough funerals but I'm sure I'll be going to more. Unsure


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 31, 2006, 11:34 PM
Post #6 of 34 (2804 views)
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Re: [peckerhead] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just prefer to jump at non-swoop dropzones and when I do I stay away from the zoomies and land out if necesary.
We have a swoop area and the landing area is huge anyway.


peckerhead

Oct 31, 2006, 11:54 PM
Post #7 of 34 (2797 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

Far out man!

Do you have a low pull area too?


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 1, 2006, 12:13 AM
Post #8 of 34 (2793 views)
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Re: [peckerhead] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you have a low pull area too?
Nope. No need for that.

We respect rules and don't like to file incident report of low pulls.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Nov 1, 2006, 6:37 AM
Post #9 of 34 (2680 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

<on topic>

I have seen "The Bounce Book" have a positive impression on low-pullers and / or jumpmasters who chased a student well below the hard-deck. For hook n' swoops gone wrong, I'm not just talking stills, I'm talking video, if available, both from ground-to-air and if the hook-ie had a camera on, that video too. There's got to be more video of these incidents floating around out there then what surfaces.

Go to Jay's AFF course or to get a Tandem JM cert and he's got a collection of AFFs gone bad and Tandem landings gone bad where the JM gets injured. He shows it to y'all and then asks you to consider if you really want to do this.

Folks up thread have said a lot of things that I'd expect like there's always the element that won't listen or think it won't happen to them or they're too good to mess up. True enough. I've said and thought the same and probably will again, but consider some of the others out there... those under the influence of this type... they just might be swayed by something like this rahter then just writting them off too.


peek  (D 8884)

Nov 1, 2006, 7:38 AM
Post #10 of 34 (2642 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also, as callous and morbid as it may sound, possibly putting together something like a "bounce book" for hook-turns may effect a change to.

I think it's a great idea, but skydiving is way too politically correct for that. People would be whining about how it is not respectful to the deceased.

If I had the resources I would love to make a radio controlled life-sized dummy with a high performance canopy to hook-in right in front of everyone.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 1, 2006, 7:57 AM
Post #11 of 34 (2622 views)
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Re: [peek] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I think it's a great idea, but skydiving is way too politically correct for that.

So what? If you maintain the book, they can whine but can't do anything about it.

Consider the Wall of Pain at the Ranch. Very politically incorrect - but it's still up.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Nov 1, 2006, 8:02 AM
Post #12 of 34 (2616 views)
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Re: [peek] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it's a great idea, but skydiving is way too politically correct for that. People would be whining about how it is not respectful to the deceased.

Skydiving "too politically correct"... not sure about that... people whining... yeah, that I can see.

But anyway, that's part of the problem. How many times have you seen threads in the incident forum with people getting all worked up over "you can't say that" because they're trying to defend their friends from being "picked on".

Certainly we shouldn't be disrespectful of slanderous of anyone or anything involved in an incident, but we need to get over the emotion of it when it comes to the investigation, analysis of the cause & affet and conclusions... in short, sometimes the truth hurts.

Does anyone have pics of the wall of pain at The Ranch?


piisfish

Nov 1, 2006, 8:03 AM
Post #13 of 34 (2613 views)
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Re: [billvon] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Consider the Wall of Pain at the Ranch. Very politically incorrect - but it's still up.
can you tell more about the Wall of Pain ??


NickDG  (D 8904)

Nov 1, 2006, 9:38 AM
Post #14 of 34 (2553 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's a good idea. As for being respectful, it depends how you write it. But, I'd say besides the who, what, and where, of it, the numbers would do all the talking . . .

These people fade too quickly into the past under the catch-all of, "just another hook turn." A list, and a photograph, makes it real and it forces people to confront the issue.

But, come up with another name. "The Bounce List" wouldn't be my first choice.

Maybe call it, "In The Corner . . ."

NickD Smile
BASE 194


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Nov 1, 2006, 10:05 AM
Post #15 of 34 (2534 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But, I'd say besides the who, what, and where, of it, the numbers would do all the talking . . .

These people fade too quickly into the past under the catch-all of, "just another hook turn." A list, and a photograph, makes it real and it forces people to confront the issue.

128 entries in this book (75 with names, 18 with pictures)

Even when people live, it can be pretty disturbing


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Nov 1, 2006, 10:05 AM
Post #16 of 34 (2534 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

>can you tell more about the Wall of Pain ??

Consists mainly of pictures of people about to hit, hitting, and in ambulances. I haven't been there in a while, so I'll defer to a Ranch jumper who has seen it more recently.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Nov 1, 2006, 10:11 AM
Post #17 of 34 (2529 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not sure that anything short of eyewitness viewing makes remotely the same impression.

Honestly, I'm recovering from a shouler injury that's fairly akin to a femur in scope and I'm not sure that such a book would make any impression on me if I were interested in a fast tiny canopy. It's just a picture, right?

Sorry, it's not very constructive.

Right idea. I think a video of hook turns gone bad should be made available and shown to everyone that is downsizing or deciding they are good enough to do hook turns.

It would have more impact on people if they can see the blood and guts and bones sticking out, not to mention that neat sound it makes when someone hits the ground real hard.

Judy


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 1, 2006, 12:04 PM
Post #18 of 34 (2462 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Right idea. I think a video of hook turns gone bad should be made available and shown to everyone that is downsizing or deciding they are good enough to do hook turns.

None would believe until it happens with him/her.
I did not either.

I had a jump where I messed up my setup, I utilized the famous "I can do that" attitude. I have aborted, but I hit the ground with my left knee. I had the effect of my brake stub after that and getting up 2-3 meters.
I was over our swoop area. The surface was soft and I was walking away without even a scratch.

Pictures do not work. Take a positive attitude and make some canopy simulator. Even injuries can be simulated depending on the surface, position and energy of the impact.


Tornolf

Nov 1, 2006, 5:37 PM
Post #19 of 34 (2352 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

Carnage video? Don't show it to everybody, it lessens the effect. Show it to those who want to see it or those who need to. Last time I saw a carnage compilation was because I wanted to, and the effect was extremely powerful because I viewed it so seriously.


Dean358  (D 28881)

Nov 2, 2006, 10:24 AM
Post #20 of 34 (2194 views)
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Re: [billvon] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>can you tell more about the Wall of Pain ??

Consists mainly of pictures of people about to hit, hitting, and in ambulances. I haven't been there in a while, so I'll defer to a Ranch jumper who has seen it more recently.

Indeed, that is a very good description Bill. There also seems to be a foundness for, shall we say, "close ups." Sorry to inform you though that the so called "great hall" is going to be torn down starting this weekend. Not sure if the Wall Of Pain will be reposted in Billy's lovely new hanger, but I hope so.

Cheers,
Dean


AFFI  (D 25538)

Nov 2, 2006, 10:48 AM
Post #21 of 34 (2179 views)
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Re: [Tornolf] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Carnage video? Don't show it to everybody, it lessens the effect. Show it to those who want to see it or those who need to. Last time I saw a carnage compilation was because I wanted to, and the effect was extremely powerful because I viewed it so seriously.

How can I get a copy of the carnage vid you saw?

-


brettski74  (C 3197)

Nov 2, 2006, 12:08 PM
Post #22 of 34 (2145 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
128 entries in this book (75 with names, 18 with pictures)

Even when people live, it can be pretty disturbing

FWIW, I wasn't planning to start swooping for a long time, but I was thinking about maybe a Safire2 169 or similar in the next 6 months. I'd read only about a third of the way through that first list and I found myself rethinking that. There's no rush, and I can happily wait until I've got 200 or more jumps before making that decision.

Maybe making the carnage more accessible won't work for everyone, but reading through that list made me think - and hopefully the right thing.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Nov 2, 2006, 2:30 PM
Post #23 of 34 (2096 views)
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the sound makes more of an "impression" than the visual.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Nov 2, 2006, 2:34 PM
Post #24 of 34 (2094 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think the sound makes more of an "impression" than the visual.

Agreed. There's something uniquely visceral about the sound of bones snapping.


jerry81

Nov 2, 2006, 3:19 PM
Post #25 of 34 (2071 views)
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Re: [bob.dino] Do we need a Hook Turn -- Bounce Book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think the sound makes more of an "impression" than the visual.

Agreed. There's something uniquely visceral about the sound of bones snapping.
I think than might depend on the individual. I've been less than 10 feet away twice and I can't for the life of me remember much more than a thud when the person hit. But visually, it's burnt into my memory for good...


(This post was edited by jerry81 on Nov 2, 2006, 3:20 PM)


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