Oct 14, 2006, 1:40 PM
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Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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Old argumant I had with a cameraman, came up again in conversation. Spot was a touch long, he was jumping an F-111 canopy and probably should have opened a touch higher...or given em a signal to pull a little earlier for him. He ends up landing off and I took my student back to the landing area. He then gets torked cause he doesn't get the landing shot. (Same thing coulda happened if he was flying a ground hungry hankerchief, had a sniveling opening...)
My viewpoint, why take an out landing and needlessly risk my student. I know the landing area is nice and safe...and adjacent area, being less well maintained is a bad choice. Obviously you have to be prepared for an out landing, but that don't mean you take it every chance you get. Also at some DZ's landing out is just the same as landing in...just a further walk.
So, do you land with your cameraman or play it safe?
slotperfect (D 13014)
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Oct 14, 2006, 2:30 PM
Post #2 of 29
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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I assume you are talking about a tandem?
Operating on that assumption:
1) My priority is the safety of the student. I always land on the DZ if I can make it. 2) I take care of my camera flyers. If the spot is long, I let them know in free fall (the old "look down" signal) and then pull high so they can get the opening shot and still make it in. 3) On the *rare* occasions that I land out with a tandem (can't make it back), I land with my camera flyer, because he has found the best place for me to land the tandem. It's a teamwork thing. 4) The landing video is important, but not more important than the student's safety.
Oct 14, 2006, 2:43 PM
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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If conditions are good and the area is a safe one then why not land off with your videao guy/gal to get the landing for them, i dont really see it as a problem if its safe to do so. on the other hand if it is a biggish operation and you dont want to land off whats to stop another camera guy/gal to get te landing and pass it on??
Oct 14, 2006, 7:14 PM
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Re: [birddog] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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And if your tandem student injures themsleves in that off field landing, which, no matter how good you may be, you cannot 100% prevent the possibility of, then what?
If a tandem instructor can make it back to the DZ, and chooses to land off to land with his video, he (or she) needs to reevlauate being a tandem instructor.
Our job is STUDENT SAFETY first and foremost. Landing off, in the event of a student injury is less safe than landing at the DZ. It absolutely increases the time it would take for emergency medical persons to reach your student if needed, and you can never predict when or if it will ever be needed.
Tandems are about what is in the best interest of your student's SAFETY and WELL BEING, NOT their video.
Oct 14, 2006, 8:44 PM
Post #7 of 29
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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Pretty much same feeling here... Student to DZ if at all possible. The camera is secondary and not your concern as a TM as the passangers safety should come first. Landing off opens up some unneeded risks.
Now from a camera point of view I would hope another camera on the load would help a btother out if they could.
Oct 14, 2006, 8:50 PM
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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IMO, tandem and video are a team effort if you want a good product. If the spot is alittle long, it takes the TI's effort to pull alittle higher, so the camera flyer can also. TI's that hose the video and dont pull higher to ensure the video can make it back, are fucked up. If the camera flyer had every opportunity to pull higher on a long spot, then it's his fault. The TI and student should always make every effort to land in a safe spot, and that is most likely at the DZ landing area.
Oct 15, 2006, 2:02 PM
Post #9 of 29
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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My view as a vidiot and not a TM.
The saftey of the passenger is paramount. If I am going to land off, the last thing I expect is the TM will also land off. Despite this, they have done this.
For me as a vidiot, it is not neccessary. I have enough landing shots from a distance where you cannot see who has landed.
I have mixed videos where the canopy has changed color three times and passenger was still so pleased with the result they have sent me presents in the post.
The videos guys do their job and the TM's do theirs.
Oct 15, 2006, 2:36 PM
Post #10 of 29
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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I'd rather just do hand-cam. That eliminates any safety issues that come with outside video. But, since that's not the topic of this thread.......
Usually I'll land out with the video if they have selected an acceptable landing area. It's not my first and only skydive. It is my customer's and they paid good money for that video. The way I figure it is if I can't safely land out in a field or a graveyard or wherever I probably can't land safely on the dz either. Obviously if the video person lands safely in the sewer pond I'm going to choose an alternate safe landing area. But, then again, I do have a strong desire to never land in a sewer pond.
Oct 15, 2006, 3:17 PM
Post #11 of 29
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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I just had this happen. I let the student decide weather she wanted to land by the camera or where the spectators could see her. She picked landing by her family.
Oct 15, 2006, 8:22 PM
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Re: [aironscott] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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I'd rather just do hand-cam
I've never seen hand-cam video that even remotely compares to outside video as far as quality. At best it's OK and at worst it makes me literally sick to watch because of all the close, shaky shots.YMMV
Oct 16, 2006, 2:08 AM
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Re: [LawnDart21] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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Quote:
Landing off, in the event of a student injury is less safe than landing at the DZ. It absolutely increases the time it would take for emergency medical persons to reach your student if needed, and you can never predict when or if it will ever be needed.
This entirely depends on the terrain you're landing at and the DZ. At my DZ this would not be a significant difference.
Oct 16, 2006, 5:47 AM
Post #15 of 29
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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As a tandem cameraman only, i can only give my POV but i would never expect my TI to land out with me, as others have said, the safety of the student always comes first.
My TI and i work as a team in the sky, i check the spot on climbout and during the skydive he gives me signals to say the spot is deep, etc. If it is deep we end the skydive slightly earlier so we both make it back.
I have landed out on one occasion after a near mal but another camera dude has covered the landing for me and i have done the same for camera friends of mine.
Oct 16, 2006, 7:11 AM
Post #16 of 29
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Re: [USPA] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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Quote:
This entirely depends on the terrain you're landing at and the DZ. At my DZ this would not be a significant difference.
If your student is injured on an off field landing (which no TI is good enough to 1000% gaurantee it would never ever happen), you are increasing the response time for medical attention by landing off, regardless of what terrain your DZ may have.
Oct 16, 2006, 9:21 AM
Post #18 of 29
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Re: [LawnDart21] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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I will only respond 1 more time, because this is a useless discussion. I will say again, on my DZ this will not be a significant difference and I know a number of DZ's in The Netherlands which this would be no difference at all. The terrain may be easier to reach for the ambulance then the DZ.
Don't forget, the world is bigger then the USA. (In The Netherlands, wherever you land a paramedic is ready to treat you within 15 minutes (it's law and they're very strict about this).
Oct 16, 2006, 10:11 AM
Post #19 of 29
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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Teamwork is why he's mad, not landing off. I've worked with some good camera people and either way this would have not been a big deal. What makes it big is when one or both people don't respect each other and try and work together as a team. Different agenda's, don't tell me what to do attitudes, and then black and white arguments that have no grey. You were scared for your students safety, ok, he will understand this if he respects you. If he thinks your not a very good tm he won't, or doesn't. Good communication between team players rarely results in petty stuff, and can handle the big arguments without blowing apart the team. This is a small one, easily preventable with communication, remember dude, you guys are both really important for about 7 minutes, talk it out before hand.
Oct 16, 2006, 6:16 PM
Post #21 of 29
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Re: [USPA] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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Don't forget, the world is bigger then the USA. (In The Netherlands, wherever you land a paramedic is ready to treat you within 15 minutes (it's law and they're very strict about this).
That's 15 minutes from the time that you call them. If you and your tandem passenger pound in 1km from the DZ, how long might it be before someone realises that there's a problem? If your camera-guy is trying to stabilise two injured people he's not running for help...
Oct 16, 2006, 10:59 PM
Post #22 of 29
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Re: [JJohnson] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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As a camera guy I have told all my TM's that if for some reason I land off to always take the passanger home. I would hate to think that something bad would happen to a passanger or one of my brothers trying to get a landing shot. If I end up missing it, I just interview them when I get home. It's as simple as that. Besides... :) It's a lot easier to find a ride home for one person. ;)
Oct 17, 2006, 1:53 AM
Post #23 of 29
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Re: [bob.dino] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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untill about 2 km out we can still see from our hangar. If it's further out, the tandem couldn't make the DZ if the camera couldn't. Also The Netherlands is very densly populated, when we land out we usually have people around us (non jumpers) within 2 minutes.
Oct 17, 2006, 1:58 AM
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Re: [mattaman] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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That's so true. Now both a vidiot and a tandemmaster. It's something you do together for a paying customer. I hate it when tandemmasters make a jump on their own, with just an anoying weight in front of them. Making a big show for the video, so they have all the attention and not the passenger. I even had a tandemmaster who didn't even care to land next to me on the DZ, but just landed 200 meter next to me, so he didn't have to walk to the car (and wasn't interested in spotting me)
Oct 17, 2006, 7:59 AM
Post #25 of 29
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Re: [speedy] Land off w/ camera or head back to DZ?
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I have had it the other way around.
Once I landed on the DZ but the tandem I was filming didn't make it back.
and no, he didn't have a reserve!
I've had one of those myself! ;-) ...
Speaking as a camera flier, i would never expect the TM to land out with me either.. though if we are both hosed, i'd look for an out field suitable for BOTH of us...
Speaking as a TI.. we give our camera fliers signals toward the bottom of the dive for short, overhead the spot, and long. That way no surprises when they flip over after filming the opening. If neither of us are going to make it then I'll land off with my camera as long as long as the spot is safe for the student.
I agree that the two should work as a team, covering each others ass during different parts of the skydive
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