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When they say toggles together durning flare!!!

 

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Bill_K  (D 30260)

Sep 25, 2006, 2:09 PM
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When they say toggles together durning flare!!! Can't Post

They really do mean it, EVEN in a cross wind landing. Blush

Take these pictures as a warning and example of what happens when you reach while still at 8 or 9 feet and get dumped and drug... thankfully nothing by a few bruises and scrapes to show for this.

Anyway, just a good reminder to pay attention to the basics... Smile

Oh and I was doing my first free fly jump and was only wearing shorts. My jump suit would have saved the scrapes, but not the bruises. Shocked

I had started my flare while about 30 degree's into a cross wind and instead of just keeping going through and down, I reached with my right. The wind was coming from the left front. Next thing I know, wam and drag... CrazyBlushUnimpressed

Several that saw it though did say that it was pretty funny to watch. Cool
Attachments: leg_01.jpg (98.1 KB)
  leg_02.jpg (102 KB)
  leg_03.jpg (69.5 KB)


mik  (D 11111)

Sep 25, 2006, 2:23 PM
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Re: [Bill_K] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Freeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !!

Glad you are ok...


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Sep 25, 2006, 2:34 PM
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Re: [mik] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Freeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !!

It was more of a first FreeFlying attempt... Wink But hey I did try, and will again. I did pull off a free tumble with a nice spin from on back while trying to get stable for a few thousand feet, hit 171 mph at some point. Shocked After a few rotations without being able to get back up into a sit I rolled to my belly without even thinking about it. I mean, one second I'm on my back and the next I was stable on my belly. Amazing how much some of that AFF training comes back and kicks in.

In reply to:
Glad you are ok...
Thanks!! Smile


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Sep 25, 2006, 2:41 PM
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Re: [mik] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Freeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !!

Glad you are ok...

dude I started at 21 jumps

D


brabzzz  (C 103268)

Sep 25, 2006, 3:32 PM
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Re: [dharma1976] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

The sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! Tongue

Yep - a jumpsuit would have saved you some grief. I stopped jumping tevas after it occured to me that good trainers were cushioning the landings SOOOOO much more.

Could have been worse though...naked jump!Smile


DJL  (C License)

Sep 25, 2006, 3:39 PM
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Re: [dharma1976] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Freeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !!

Glad you are ok...

dude I started at 21 jumps

D

Haa!! My log book entry for jump #12: "Tried sitting thing."


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Sep 25, 2006, 4:53 PM
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Re: [DJL] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

What I did not say in the first post is that this 'free fly' attempt was on jump #39 and that I did 5 of those belly things afterward through out the day...

It did not hurt to walk on so I figured that I was probably safe to go for it. I stopped the sit flying attempts so that I could use my jump suite to protect the leg from anymore rash though. Blush

Now I gotta go read more about this free flying thing... Smile


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Sep 25, 2006, 7:51 PM
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Re: [Bill_K] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My jump suit would have saved the scrapes,

Dude, with your vast experience, you don't need to jump in anything more than a jockstrap and flipflops. Don't weenie out now. Hang in there, you'll toughen up. Pirate Hell, what are you going to do when you're hooking in swoops with that new Velo in another 10 - 12 jumps. Wink

Kevin K.


(This post was edited by kkeenan on Sep 25, 2006, 7:56 PM)


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Sep 25, 2006, 8:14 PM
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Re: [kkeenan] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My jump suit would have saved the scrapes,

Dude, with your vast experience, you don't need to jump in anything more than a jockstrap and flipflops. Don't weenie out now. Hang in there, you'll toughen up. Pirate Hell, what are you going to do when you're hooking in swoops with that new Velo in another 10 - 12 jumps. Wink

Kevin K.

Kevin,

I don't know you from Adam, but that made me laugh like hell dude... thanks for the smile!! Laugh What is the saying about experience, it comes from bad choices and those from lack of experience... oh heck I don't remember... thanks again for the laugh... no jock's here though. The Doke's of the world can have those. Wink

BK


FrogNog  (C 34484)

Sep 25, 2006, 11:43 PM
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Re: [Bill_K] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to see the pictures aren't radiographical.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Sep 26, 2006, 1:15 AM
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Re: [Bill_K] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
dude I started at 21 jumps

In reply to:
The sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin!

In reply to:
Haa!! My log book entry for jump #12: "Tried sitting thing."

In reply to:
'free fly' attempt was on jump #39

Quote:
"good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment"

I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good?





phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Sep 26, 2006, 1:46 AM
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Re: [Bill_K] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Try to fill up your bag of experience before your bag of luck get empty.Pirate


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Sep 26, 2006, 5:40 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good?

I don't get it.

Most DZ's have basic freeflying as part of their student progression...?

_Am


brabzzz  (C 103268)

Sep 26, 2006, 6:31 AM
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Re: [AndyMan] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Not in the UK.

Still can't see what the problem is with someone trying freeflying at 20 jumps. As long as they're going solo with good kit, who cares if they decide to do some flailing rather than belly flying?


(This post was edited by brabzzz on Sep 26, 2006, 8:20 AM)


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Sep 26, 2006, 8:13 AM
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Re: [brabzzz] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

A quick reply to the free flying.

First I bought a brand new Mirage M3 recently so that I would have a free fly friendly rig. I also liked the saftey and idea of having a newer rig so I bought one.

Second I got 30 minutes of coaching on the ground before I got on the plane and the coach jumped after I did and stayed clear of me and gave me more coaching when we got on the ground.

Lastly, I don't have a free flying suit, just an RW suit so for me to try free flying it's shorts and a baggy sweat shirt for now. Smile

BK


(This post was edited by Bill_K on Sep 26, 2006, 8:14 AM)


jakee  (C License)

Sep 26, 2006, 12:01 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
"good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment"

I see very little good judgment or expereience being used here. The first thing that comes to mind is luck. Would you rather be lucky or good?

Really? I don't really see how the solo sit flying contributed to the accident, but what I do see is a suitably loaded, docile 7-cell canopy choice that may well have prevented this from being any worse.


Hey Bill, man does that look like its going to sting! Glad you're okSmile


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Sep 26, 2006, 12:08 PM
Post #17 of 42 (2431 views)
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Re: [Bill_K] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

>When they say toggles together durning flare!!!

"Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is.

At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline.


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Sep 26, 2006, 12:28 PM
Post #18 of 42 (2414 views)
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Re: [jakee] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but what I do see is a suitably loaded, docile 7-cell canopy choice that may well have prevented this from being any worse.
I'm sure that your very right. Smile It's a Triathlon 220 loaded at 1:1


In reply to:
Hey Bill, man does that look like its going to sting! Glad you're okSmile
Thanks me too...


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Sep 26, 2006, 12:30 PM
Post #19 of 42 (2413 views)
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Re: [billvon] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>When they say toggles together durning flare!!!

"Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is.

At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline.

Bill,

Can you point me to an online description of this so that I can start practicing it up good and high? In this case it probably would have saved some skin on my leg. BlushSmile

BK


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 26, 2006, 12:37 PM
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Re: [Bill_K] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

>Can you point me to an online description of this so that I can start practicing it up good and high?

Here's an excerpt:

-------------
Learn to flare turn at least 45 degrees. This does two things - it gives you another tool in your arsenal to dodge last minute obstacles, and teaches you to fly your canopy all the way through to the landing. The #1 mistake jumpers with new HP canopies make is to "reach out to break their fall" while they're flaring; this of course turns the canopy in the direction they are reaching. Most people decide that this is due to a side gust just as they're landing. I remember one jumper at Brown who, amazingly enough, experienced a side gust seconds before he landed (and always from the right) 40-50 times in a row! Learning to flare turn will help eliminate this problem.

To flare turn, start with a normal flare, then flare _slightly_ more with one toggle. The canopy will turn. Bring the other toggle down to match it, and the canopy will straighten out. It's a dynamic process; rather than put the toggles at a certain position, you have to speed up one toggle for a second, then speed up the other to match it, before you level them and finish the flare. If you balloon upwards, then don't flare as quickly. If you drop to the ground, bring both toggles down more aggressively when they are 'split.' One thing that helps people is to think about where your canopy is rather than what it's doing. Use the toggles to put it off to one side for a moment, then use them to put it back over your head.

This can be hard to practice with a large canopy. I can pull off a 45 degree turn on a Manta, but the flare is over so fast that it's hard to explain what I just did. It's much easier on a canopy loaded around 1:1, so you may want to wait on this one until you get to that loading.

Note that if you combine a flare turn with a flat turn, you can pull off nearly a 180 degree turn at just above 50 feet. Also note that knowing how to do flat and flare turns doesn't mean you can always turn at 50 feet and get away with it - sometimes it's better to accept a downwind landing than make a turn at a dangerously low altitude. But if you do have to turn low (say, you're on course for the electrified fence around the pit bull farm) a flat/flare turn will let you either turn and land normally or turn and minimize the damage caused by landing in a turn.
-------------------------------------------------

Whole article:

http://www.dropzone.com/...etail_page.cgi?ID=47


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Sep 26, 2006, 12:51 PM
Post #21 of 42 (2396 views)
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Re: [billvon] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the link Bill. I'm going to read, and re-read it a few times.

In this case I do know that it was a cross wind because I was turning away from a taxi way to avoid hitting it. I had missed my spot a little due to the winds being stronger on downwind than I had anticipated. I know your not saying that I always reach, and in thinking back, I was trying to be careful to avoid that taxi way (for a really dumb reason which I should not share Blush) and made a choice to turn and put myself cross wind a bit. The winds were steady at probably 10-12 knots, maybe a tad more, it's hard to say.

Anyway, thanks as usual!! Your always a help.Smile

BK


livendive  (D 21415)

Sep 26, 2006, 4:44 PM
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Re: [dharma1976] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Freeflying at 44 jumps?? Wow !!

Glad you are ok...

dude I started at 21 jumps

One...make that two shots of one of my former AFF students while she was learning the art of backloops. Wink

Blues,
Dave


parachutist  (D 25468)

Sep 26, 2006, 10:03 PM
Post #23 of 42 (2265 views)
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Re: [billvon] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>When they say toggles together durning flare!!!

"Toggles together" is something of a crutch. The position of your toggles isn't that important; the position of the wing is.

At this point it's probably a good idea to start learning flare turns. They will allow you to prevent this sort of thing in the future, and allow you to actually turn into the wind during the flare if you do have to land off the windline.


"Toggles together" is a good habit, not a crutch. A couple benefits:
1) if you need to PLF then your arms are in close and less likely to get broken.
2) When a low-timer is being distracted by the approaching earth at 10 feet... the hands stay together and the flare is even (instead of reaching for the ground and breaking a wrist)

Jumpers can take this good habit and still learn to do braked turns when they're ready

Chris


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Sep 26, 2006, 11:41 PM
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Re: [parachutist] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

>"Toggles together" is a good habit, not a crutch.

"Toggles together" is like "eyes on the horizon", "two stage flare" or "feet and knees together at 20 feet." It's a great thing to do when you're starting out, and can really save your butt in some situations. But it's also something you have to outgrow before you move on to higher wingloadings/more aggressive canopies.

Keeping your toggles together means you cannot use them to correct your flare once you've started. At higher loadings, that can result in injuries due to failure to maintain heading during the flare (or being unable to change one's heading during the flare.) This doesn't mean that "toggles together" is worthless - rather, it means that if someone is trying to decide whether to get a more aggressive canopy, and they're still doing the "toggles together" thing, they'd be well-advised to make a few more jumps on that canopy before they downsize.


Brumby  (C 104799)

Sep 27, 2006, 12:37 AM
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Re: [brabzzz] When they say toggles together durning flare!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The sooner the better. Helps avoid any bad habits like belly flyin! Tongue

I like you statement............. Cool


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