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Another Vigil Anomaly

 

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kkeenan  (D 22164)

Aug 28, 2006, 7:48 AM
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Another Vigil Anomaly Can't Post

Copied from PIA Rigger's Forum.
I have no further info.

=======================
8/26/2006
Hi
I would like to inform you that today a VIGIL (Student mode) fired on the ground.
The rig was in a static position on the ground.
A.A.D the mfg. of the Vigil was informed.
Reasons for the misfiring are unknown at this point of time.
The unit will be shipped back to the mfg. for investigation.
Safe Rigging !!!


(This post was edited by kkeenan on Aug 28, 2006, 7:51 AM)


Vectracide  (D License)

Aug 28, 2006, 8:18 AM
Post #2 of 91 (4830 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

All these vigil misfires......on the ground, in the air, in the plane, during tandem decents...


Makes you wonder when the first person is going to die at the hands of this device. Or worse yet, a plane load of people when the PC gets sucked out the door and rips the tail off.....


I'd rather have nothing in my rig as compared to this little jewel.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Aug 28, 2006, 8:20 AM
Post #3 of 91 (4827 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

Is anyone even keep count of all these issues? I lost count at like 4 misfires reported on here... Crazy


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Aug 28, 2006, 8:33 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

Are we re-reporting any of these issues? Since we have several sources of info now we could be doubleing the amount of misfires by reporting them twice.

We have had 6 on our team for 3 years with out issue. C-130 jumps, C-17 Jumps, Tandem, Student Staticline and AFF rigs, Up-jumper/Instructor rigs (135 zippy canopies) and Demonstrator Rigs.

We jump from C-130's, C-17's, CH-47's, UH-60's and all known Jump aircraft in the US Skydiving Arena.

Our rigs have around 200 jumps each (6 set ups in all) and we have had no issue.

IS there food for thought that we may be doing some thing wrong in the handling?

(I discount the World Team issue for the "Normal" weekend skydiver)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Aug 28, 2006, 8:46 AM
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Re: [matthewcline] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

My count in 2006 is:

Perris Jet at WFFC
Tandem fire at Connecticut Parachutists reported on 8/14/06
Vigil ground fire at Interlaken in Switzerland in July 06
Vigil ground fire at Skydive Weston in July 06 PDF statement on it
Said statement also references a ground fire this summer in France.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Aug 28, 2006, 8:48 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool, I am sure that as new as the system is the reporting to the manufacturer is probably accurate.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 28, 2006, 10:38 AM
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Re: [matthewcline] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Are we re-reporting any of these issues?

This one was reported on PIA riggers site on 23 Aug. by a rigger in Israel.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Aug 28, 2006, 10:48 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Mojo and Phree.

I asked since it happens in my office all the time.

I.E.
I was told about the Tandem Fatality in Ohio while in Ohio (1) and then my first day back an e-mail (2) that claimed to be the "first to know", 2 safety guys from the Post Safty office called (3,4) and all these have to be logged in and then I get to sift it all out and combine it and then dismiss it as it did not involve any Military Jumpers or our post.

This is just the example don't spin the thread off topic any further (yeah I am guilty here).

I would like to know more about the ground fires in student rigs (yes?), as we have six and they are all (but 2) currently doing student work.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Aug 28, 2006, 1:00 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

Add these ones to the list.

July 04/06
A van left Alberta Skydivers in Beiseker Alberta (elevation 3026') carrying nine rigs with armed Vigils in STUDENT mode. The route took the vehicle through Banff National Park and Kicking Horse Pass (Max altitude 5476') and then steeply down to the town of Golden BC (alt ~2500'). While traveling down the canyon, but at construction zone speeds, the driver heard one unit fire. She pulled over and watched two more units fire while at rest. The other units were deactivated while at rest.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Aug 28, 2006, 4:00 PM
Post #10 of 91 (4535 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

I recieved a report of a misfire on a student rig in the Southeast US this summer too. I guess the student was under a good canopy and at 3500 feet it fired and they were able to safely land the biplane.

So thats 3 more in Canada and another in the US this summer.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Aug 28, 2006, 7:32 PM
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Re: [kkeenan] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

I've only seen one occurance of it, but it was damn well impressive - the 5 Vigils that fired inside the C-130 at the World Team jumps in Thailand. I was surprised to learn later that there were only five, because it seemed like there were reserve pilot chutes flying everywhere. There were no doors open or anything, and they got them under control quick enough. But jeez - some folks are high-strung enough on some dives without wierd shit like that going on.

I personally think that the Vigil should have had much more "Beta" testing before being sold full-out. I'm sure that the bugs will be worked out. Till then, I'll carry use the other brand.

Kevin K.


(This post was edited by kkeenan on Aug 28, 2006, 7:33 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 28, 2006, 7:44 PM
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Re: [kkeenan] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I personally think that the Vigil should have had much more "Beta" testing before being sold full-out. I'm sure that the bugs will be worked out. Till then, I'll carry use the other brand.

When they were looking for people to do Beta testing I sent in my name and a short resume of my testing history. They said sure, but I would have to buy the unit. They would give me a discount but I said thanks but no thanks. People involved in test work do not buy the test item they test it. Crazy


DJL  (D License)

Aug 28, 2006, 8:03 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

That's great. Maybe I should apply for a discount on future purchases for having "tested" their equipment earlier this year. It worked. I'll post the video to skydivemovies.com tomorrow.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Aug 28, 2006, 9:02 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
People involved in test work do not buy the test item they test it. Crazy

That's my point. The concept of having your first customers do the final product testing is a great money-saving strategy, as long as the product is reasonably bug-free. I'd say the Vigil guys are kind of close to the edge, however. With a product in an application like this, it's tough to keep customers after too many "funny" incidents.Pirate

Many younger mainstream jumpers prefer technology that's at least several minutes newer, plus, they've grown up with and are more forgiving of "death by software".Wink

Kevin K.


skydivepete  (D License)

Aug 31, 2006, 6:20 AM
Post #15 of 91 (4186 views)
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Re: [Vectracide] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Makes you wonder when the first person is going to die at the hands of this device.

Maybe it already did:

http://www.dropzone.com/...s/Detailed/196.shtml

Quote:
During a Solo jump the jumper pulled their main while under 1500 feet. While their main was opening her AAD fired and opened the reserve. The reserve entanged with the main. The jumper cut the main away and was found with both handles pulled.

Pete


mark  (D 6108)

Aug 31, 2006, 7:13 AM
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Re: [skydivepete] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe it already did:
Quote:

During a Solo jump the jumper pulled their main while under 1500 feet. While their main was opening her AAD fired and opened the reserve. The reserve entangled with the main. The jumper cut the main away and was found with both handles pulled.

The example you cite is an argument against using AADs in general, because the risk of two-out increases when someone pulls low, and some two-out situations are fatal.

From the information provided, my guess is that a Student Cypres (and possibly an Expert Cypres) would also have fired in a similar situation. I don't think you can use this incident to indict Vigil.

Mark


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 1, 2006, 8:56 AM
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Re: [kkeenan] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

  STATEMENT_ACTIVATION.doc

Here is the official answer from AAD (aka. the Vigil factory).
Apparently temperature variations can confuse Vigils - on the ground - think that they are changing altitude rapidly.
AAD promises us an updated version of Vigil by the end of 2006.


rigger_john  (C 101098)

Sep 1, 2006, 10:10 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

Statement in Regard to the Recent Vigil Activations and More


Fast  (D 28237)

Sep 1, 2006, 10:15 AM
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Re: [rigger_john] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post


...are you kidding me? The answer to keeping your vigil from misfiring is to not let it sit in the sun on a hot day? That sounds scary to me.


rigger_john  (C 101098)

Sep 1, 2006, 10:21 AM
Post #20 of 91 (3965 views)
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Re: [Fast] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Quote:
...are you kidding me? The answer to keeping your vigil from misfiring is to not let it sit in the sun on a hot day? That sounds scary to me.

No I'm just posting the link.

For the record I don't think A.A.D. are kidding you either. I just had a glance through the users manual and I couldn't see any operational parameters set out in regards to tempreture. I'm sure Airtec have those parameters in the cypres manual but I haven't looked.


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 1, 2006, 10:40 AM
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Re: [Fast] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

...are you kidding me? The answer to keeping your vigil from misfiring is to not let it sit in the sun on a hot day? That sounds scary to me.

What a bunch of bullshit in that explanation. Maybe it really loses its meaning in the translation.

Hey, no problem! Just turn on/off the unit before/after each jump so it doesn't have so much time to heat up internally.

A new Vigil will be available later in the year, hooray! Maybe they'll consider having a min altitude that must be reached before the thing will arm itself, or a no fire zone when you get close enough to the ground - those seem like good ideas, eh?


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Sep 1, 2006, 10:41 AM)


NickDG  (D 8904)

Sep 1, 2006, 11:18 AM
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

>>A van left Alberta Skydivers in Beiseker Alberta (elevation 3026') carrying nine rigs with armed Vigils<<

Gee, those guys should know not to go over hill & dale with any of these gizmos armed. They sit there wondering what the hell you are doing . . . !

NicKD Smile
BASE 194


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Sep 1, 2006, 3:19 PM
Post #23 of 91 (3868 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

How are they going to address the 5000 units in the field that a subject to this issue? This is where Airtec's maintence is good since the issue can be addressed when the unit is sent back in for its maintence.

I still do not see how this would cause the Tandem fire or the Student fire at 3500 feet.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Sep 1, 2006, 3:43 PM
Post #24 of 91 (3856 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How are they going to address the 5000 units in the field that a subject to this issue? This is where Airtec's maintence is good since the issue can be addressed when the unit is sent back in for its maintence.

Just because the Vigil has no scheduled maintenance does not prevent owners from sending it in for maintenance anyway. As a Vigil owner, I have an expectation that I will be able to do that to ensure that my unit (that still has most of its useful life left) will be able to be brought up to the standards of the "improved" unit when it comes out.

If that's not the case, I'll be a very unhappy customer. Unimpressed Till then I'm just glad I don't normally jump in places with extreme temperature swings.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Sep 1, 2006, 3:44 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Sep 1, 2006, 5:13 PM
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Re: [NWFlyer] Another Vigil Anomaly [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm just glad I don't normally jump in places with extreme temperature swings.

The note from Vigil does not say that the ambient environment temp change was the cause. I read it to say that the unit heated up on its own (power is dissipated in all electronics). No problem, just remember to turn it off between jumps.Laugh


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Sep 1, 2006, 5:14 PM)


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