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HP landing on a( the first) demo jump?

 

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Poll: HP landing on a( the first) demo jump?
No way! 70 / 74%
Do it as usual as practiced before. 12 / 13%
Double front risers only. 5 / 5%
Not more than 90 degrees front riser approach. 5 / 5%
Not more than 180 degrees front riser approach. 2 / 2%
94 total votes
 
phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Aug 27, 2006, 11:55 PM
Post #1 of 74 (2071 views)
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HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? Can't Post

We are planing to have a demo jump into a football stadium. The place is 5-10 meter lower than the surroundings. There are trees (5-10 meter high) and other obstacles too, so winds could be unpredictable and most likely it would not be any wind on the ground level inside.

Our plan is getting in one or the other corner and land in diagonal. One of the other corners can be the second choice, but the rest is out of question.

One of us is planning to go there with a 120 sqft airlocked canopy with a PDR113 and planning to have 180 degrees rotation on landing. His WL is about 1.5/1.6 and he has about 400 jumps.

Opinions?


(This post was edited by phoenixlpr on Aug 28, 2006, 1:07 AM)


D22369  (D 22369)

Aug 28, 2006, 1:21 AM
Post #2 of 74 (2034 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Opinions?
Quote:

my opinion is that your S&TA needs his ass kicked if he is allowing this.... non jumpers will be plenty impressed by safe stand up landings, not some fool slamming or sliding in.



His WL is about 1.5/1.6 and he has about 400 jumps.

this has DGIT written all over it.

Roy


skyhpp  (C 840)

Aug 28, 2006, 1:40 AM
Post #3 of 74 (2026 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't go there - when you are jumping at a public venue your primary responsibility is to present our sport in a safe, responsible manner such that spectators are made to feel that "I could do that!"

The average member of the public is incapable of appreciating the skill required to carry out a high risk, high performance landing - never mind one into a restricted area like a football stadium. If it does go wrong, the consequences to the sport will be devastating - and that is not worth it.

I have just lost a long term relationship with a stadium due to one jumper who (without prior agreement) flew himself and his canopy through the football poles - it was a very high risk, highly skilled manouver carried out to perfection by an experienced demo jumper.

The stadium manager was totally unimpressed however, citing the risk to spectators as well as potential claims against the stadium in the event of a mishap - not to mention negative publicity.

So at the risk of coming across as an old fart, keep it simple, keep it safe and enjoy the satisfaction when you are asked to do another demo at the same venue - you can add special effects such as flags, streamers, smoke , etc. which will also generate a nice reaction.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Aug 28, 2006, 2:30 AM
Post #4 of 74 (2010 views)
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Re: [D22369] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
this has DGIT written all over it.

What does DGIT mean?


piisfish

Aug 28, 2006, 2:48 AM
Post #5 of 74 (2006 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What does DGIT mean?
Dead Guy In Training


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Aug 28, 2006, 3:04 AM
Post #6 of 74 (1999 views)
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Re: [skyhpp] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not the S&TA and not even the organizer of that jump.

I'm going to be the 2nd in exit order by wing load.

I have jump other place than an airfield, but I had only 2 spectators. I had my lesson I think I have learnt it well. If we have that demo, I can tell after that.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Aug 28, 2006, 3:13 AM
Post #7 of 74 (1994 views)
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Re: [piisfish] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What does DGIT mean?
Dead Guy In Training

I can not save his life.


Travman  (E License)

Aug 28, 2006, 4:33 AM
Post #8 of 74 (1960 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

IMHO and I am no swooper, but personally I wouldn't be attempting High Performance landings on a demo jump unless I had at least jumped the venue before and the conditions were favourable. I have done 2 demo jumps, I did one on Saturday into a very tight oval surrounded by tall trees. There was no wind, but still some turbulance about the tree height. Not enough to cause any concern, but just enough to say "this is not a DZ" Ovals are generally designed to be shielded from the wind buy tall tress close to the perimeter.
I heard of one of Australia's top swoopers doing a HP on a demo and as he slid it in he broke his ankle. He waved to the crowd walked off the field, into the car and straight to the hospital.


steveorino  (D 26782)

Aug 28, 2006, 5:51 AM
Post #9 of 74 (1932 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We are planing to have a demo jump into a football stadium. ... he has about 400 jumps.

Opinions?

You need a PRO rating to demo into a stadium, and you need 500 jumps MINIMUM for a PRO rating. My opinion is a BIG "NO!"

EDITED to add: These are USPA requirements.


(This post was edited by steveorino on Aug 28, 2006, 5:53 AM)


kwmontreal  (D 25906)

Aug 28, 2006, 6:32 AM
Post #10 of 74 (1906 views)
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Re: [steveorino] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
We are planing to have a demo jump into a football stadium. ... he has about 400 jumps.

Opinions?

Agreed fully! BIGGER NO!! (my 0.02)

Kent



You need a PRO rating to demo into a stadium, and you need 500 jumps MINIMUM for a PRO rating. My opinion is a BIG "NO!"

EDITED to add: These are USPA requirements.


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Aug 28, 2006, 6:41 AM
Post #11 of 74 (1898 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Where do we send the flowers?


GreenMachine  (D 26585)

Aug 28, 2006, 7:33 AM
Post #12 of 74 (1865 views)
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Re: HP landing on 1st demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good Morning Gábor Szelei,

I have to side with the other guys and say "No Way"!! My home dropzone jumps into a local highschool football stadium every year to kick off their fireworks show on 4th of July so I have some experience here. Honestly, I feel lucky to be included in these jumps.

I normally fly a Sabre2-150 and just ordered a Sabre2-120. However, for these jumps I always fly a larger canopy, not because I need to but because coming in fast does nothing for the spectators or the sport. The goal is to make skydiving look relatively safe and fun, not swoop in fast and maybe wow the kids in the stadium who are too young to jump and can't afford it anyways.

FYI --- This past year we did a practice jump in the afternoon so the 2 new guys could practice, which was good for them. During that practice run with no one there I swooped right through the goal post but for the show I brought it in nice and easy, landed on the 50 yard line, and got to hear a thousand excited people scream. That was thrill enough for me.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Aug 28, 2006, 7:45 AM
Post #13 of 74 (1854 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I chickened out on a stadium demo jump a month ago, and my replacement did jump a vengeance 120. Usually the rule for this yearly demo is "no hp canopies" (and the definition of that varies, my spectre 135 would be considered hp here) but he knows that canopy so that counted in his favour and he did do well. However this guy has a bunch of jumps plus a bunch of jumps with that canopy plus a bunch of demo jumps plus a bunch of 90's.

In your situation, I'm amazed the organisers would even let him jump a hp canopy (presuming vengeance/samurai not lotus) into a stadium AT ALL.

Or it may just be that I'm a wuss Laugh


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 28, 2006, 7:58 AM
Post #14 of 74 (1843 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

>One of us is planning to go there with a 120 sqft airlocked canopy
>with a PDR113 and planning to have 180 degrees rotation on landing.

At about the 2000 jump mark I did a demo into Jack Murphy Stadium in San Diego (now Qualcomm Stadium) with a Triathalon 190. It was really the wrong canopy for the job; the Raven IV I was using for accuracy/BASE back then would have been a better choice. I pulled it off but I ended up using most of the available runway - even though I started the flare where I wanted to. As you mentioned, the winds can be bizarre in stadiums.

The stadium you describe is smaller, but is still no piece of cake. Any jumper doing such a jump MUST be able to land exactly where he wants to. Hoping that you can sorta hit a corner and have the diagonal for any errors is a mistake; plan for the place you want to land, land there and stop quickly.

I'd suggest your friend get a canopy appropriate to the demo and practice on it until he can hit a 10 meter target 10 out of 10 times - and stop himself before he leaves the 10 meter circle.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Aug 28, 2006, 9:33 AM
Post #15 of 74 (1802 views)
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Re: [billvon] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At about the 2000 jump mark I did a demo into Jack Murphy Stadium in San Diego (now Qualcomm Stadium)

You don't have to think in so big.

It's a football field and it has running track around it. The spectator's area is not higher than 8-10 meter.

In reply to:
The stadium you describe is smaller, but is still no piece of cake.
Agree.

In reply to:
Hoping that you can sorta hit a corner and have the diagonal for any errors is a mistake; plan for the place you want to land, land there and stop quickly.
It's not a hope. There are goal in the middle of the short side. There are athletic equipment in 2 corners.
The middle of the field can be the target and the rest is escape route or safety margin.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Aug 28, 2006, 11:20 AM
Post #16 of 74 (1749 views)
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Re: [skyhpp] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't go there - when you are jumping at a public venue your primary responsibility is to present our sport in a safe, responsible manner such that spectators are made to feel that "I could do that!"

The average member of the public is incapable of appreciating the skill required to carry out a high risk, high performance landing - never mind one into a restricted area like a football stadium. If it does go wrong, the consequences to the sport will be devastating - and that is not worth it.

Worth Repeating! and not to mention the regulations by USPA aforementioned.

And you can do something to prevent this potential disaster. Be the asshole and put your foot down!

Can't save face and ass at the same time!


justinb138  (B 28762)

Aug 28, 2006, 12:03 PM
Post #17 of 74 (1730 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you should rename this thread "HP landing on last demo jump". Unsure


JohnRich  (D License)

Aug 28, 2006, 1:50 PM
Post #18 of 74 (1686 views)
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Re: [steveorino] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You need a PRO rating to demo into a stadium, and you need 500 jumps MINIMUM for a PRO rating. These are USPA requirements.

You don't have to follow USPA rules to make demo jumps. They have no authority to regulate demo jumps in general. They can only make recommendations.


steveorino  (D 26782)

Aug 28, 2006, 1:58 PM
Post #19 of 74 (1677 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

While I'm fully aware of that (I have a PRO) I'd like to think other skydivers would not do something stupid that puts PRO rated jumpers in jeopardy like femuring in. Crazy


Yossarian  (C 105227)

Aug 28, 2006, 1:59 PM
Post #20 of 74 (1675 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

whats an airlock canopy?


Ron

Aug 28, 2006, 2:35 PM
Post #21 of 74 (1648 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bad idea...No wait REALLY bad idea.

While I understand you are not USPA....But the PRO rating is noe of the things I think the USPA did right.

A HP canopy is not the right kind of canopy to take into a demo in a very inclosed area. The margin of error is way to small and the cost of a mistake is way to high.

Stadiums are not normal in any shape or form as a landing area. The winds come from any direction and change in an instant. Even small open stadiums have issues.

All in all, there is no way I would take a HP canopy into a stadium....And I have quite a few stadium jumps, and a bunch of HP canopy flight time.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Aug 28, 2006, 4:22 PM
Post #22 of 74 (1613 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Although you are very legally correct John, the FAA (some FAA individual in DC actually) issued a hand book to their FSDO's saying USPA License and PRO rating or no approval for Demo's.

I never saw the book but a FSDO in VA read quotesfrom it over the Phone to me while I was hagling with him about a Demo jump. It meant not having a 500 jump "D" License holder who hadn't gotten his PRO rating paid for yet (not a USPA issue, Army budget issue).

I even called the FAA in DC and asked USPA to step in. I can not say what USPA may or may not have done but the FAA in DC was not budging.

So back to the original topic. The HP landing at those numbers and experience and the DZ dimensions is a bad Idea.

I would like to hear the reasons those who think it is OK and voted so, but have not posted why.

Is it because it is a bad idea, but posting differently to fan the flames of discussion is fun too?


murps2000  (D 23114)

Aug 28, 2006, 9:03 PM
Post #23 of 74 (1568 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

One of us is planning to go there with a 120 sqft airlocked canopy with a PDR113 and planning to have 180 degrees rotation on landing. His WL is about 1.5/1.6 and he has about 400 jumps.
Do anything you can to get this guy not to go on the demo. I couldn't care less if someone who lacks the maturity to exercise good judgement busts himself up, but it is not worth the risk to our sport.

A demo jump is not about you or me or any other jumper performing one. It is about the crowd. No one watching cares about how well a demo jumper can swoop. They have no understanding of the skills involved. All they will think, if he pulls it off, is that he is going to crash into the ground until the last few seconds when he recovers from the dive. He'll get some ohhs, some aahs, and a few gasps, then some sighs of relief, and possibly a few sadistic mutterings of dissapointment from the few who might have liked to see a crash.

Trust me on this, you and he will both get way more applause from an accuracy approach which results in a dead center on target. Way more.

The jumper in question sounds quite selfish and unprofessional. This is not another skydive. You guys have a job to do. Your friend should act like it.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 28, 2006, 9:17 PM
Post #24 of 74 (1566 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the jumper’s choice of canopy at 400 jumps is any indication of his use of common sense then I would say he should be doing a demo of any kind. Demos are not just another skydive. They can go form a “slam dunk” to a “bait ball” in a heart beat. A pocket rocket is not the canopy to be hanging under when this happens. And I know, he will tell you how good he is. Well some of the problems you can run into are due to what others throw at you. They may string a com. Wire across your approach line after you leave for the A/P. You radio contact with the ground crew went down and you don’t see the wire until the last 50 feet. They decide to move the Marching Band on half of the landing area while you are under canopy. Or maybe you have some moron in the stands shooting of bottle rockets during your setup.

These are not, “well this might happen”, scenarios. I have had all of them happen. This kid with the 120 and 400 jumps has not seen the ball since kickoff.

Make sure there is a clear lane for the ambulance to get in.


steveorino  (D 26782)

Aug 29, 2006, 6:20 AM
Post #25 of 74 (1517 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] HP landing on a( the first) demo jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They decide to move the Marching Band on half of the landing area while you are under canopy.

Been there, done that. Thank God I was under my Sabre 190 Cool


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