Aug 14, 2006, 11:00 PM
Post #52 of 75
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Found a packing trick
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Derek,
A double or even a triple stowed band is still attached to the bag at only two points. It takes the same pressure to break whether single, double or triple stowed. It is harder for the stows to release the more wraps you use but not break. See attachments.
Aug 15, 2006, 12:22 AM
Post #54 of 75
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Re: [mjosparky] Found a packing trick
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Derek,
A double or even a triple stowed band is still attached to the bag at only two points. It takes the same pressure to break whether single, double or triple stowed. It is harder for the stows to release the more wraps you use but not break. See attachments.
I think I'm seeing a little slider burn on those lines big guy!! And the "larks head" base is through the grommet, good for a band snap (common) or a hang up (rare). Hey, you bust mine ,.....I bust yours!!!. (Off topic) BTW Squeek could be either, If you have never met him/ her, not too many clues in the profile, just the somewhat effeminate avatar. Who knew/ knows?.
Aug 15, 2006, 8:32 AM
Post #55 of 75
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Re: [mjosparky] Found a packing trick
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A double or even a triple stowed band is still attached to the bag at only two points. It takes the same pressure to break whether single, double or triple stowed. It is harder for the stows to release the more wraps you use but not break. See attachments.
I understand that and he bands don't always break, like what happened to me on that tandem.
Again:
RWS says:
"Double-stowing in the sport world with 54' drogues will most likely yield a bag-lock."
Aug 15, 2006, 9:03 AM
Post #56 of 75
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the bands should be tight enough that you can lift the bag off the floor by your lines and not have the stows come undone.
I'm not sure if I follow th logic behind that advice since largr canopies weight more than smaller canopies, but why would a larger canopy need tighterr stows given the same size PC, than a smaller canopy?
Et all,
I've heard this too and tend to agree with it, but here's my 2 cents / analysis on what's going on "behind" this "rule of thumb". I think the point is... no matter what the size / weight of the canopy is... if you try to lift the bagged canopy off the ground, and the stow is so loose that you cannot do it, then the stow is "too loose" for sure, however, if you can lift the bagged canopy off the ground, it doesn't mean the stow isn't "too tight" in some folks opinons... in other words, I think the method behind the madness of this advise is a rough way of determining if the stow is too loose, not necessisairly too tight or just right.
HnS also brought up the point of "if stows need to be that tight, why do tail pockets and free bags work?" Well... in the spirt of thinking things trough and not just blindly following advise... here's my 2 cents for y'all to cut up on... ... anyway... in a way, comparing a bag with line stows (like a traditional main D-bag) to a free-bag with a hesitation band and pocket, while they accomplise the same thing, and orderly canopy deployment, you're kinda comparing apples and oranges. The D-bag, with stowes, somewhat more "stages" the deployment as the lines unstow, one stow at a time, until the canopy comes out of the bag after reaching line-strech. The freebag somewhat more "meters" the deployment as it allows the bulk of the lines to flow out of the pocket until the last portion, held by the hesitaion bad / closing the freebag are undone allowing the bagged canopy out at line strech. Both methods are an end to the same means, but saying that line stows on a traditional D-bag don't need to be sufficiently tight (where ever you care to draw that line) because free-bags / tail pockets don't is kind-of like saying a person doesn't need a rain-coat if stuck out in the rain because a duck doesn't...
----
Quote:
Again:
RWS says:
"Double-stowing in the sport world with 54' drogues will most likely yield a bag-lock."
HnS... you've said that a couple of times throughout this thread... In the spirt of...
Quote:
Think through all advice, don't just follow it because of the source. Ask why.
... seems that statement applies to Tandems? Also, seems your opposition to double stows steems in large part to your one experience. I'm not discounting that, but it is only one data point. Anyway, again, in the spirt of... "Think through all advice, don't just follow it because of the source. Ask why"... why is that? Please add somemore context to ..."Double-stowing in the sport world with 54' drogues will most likely yield a bag-lock." ... or point us towards the RWS doc where that's contained so all of what that goes with can be seen.
Thanks.
I gotta say, I'm kinda with RRob on this one. I've seen double stows so many times that I can't understand what the fuss is all about. The times I've seen bag-locks blamed on double stows, IMO, it was really one of two other problems... either... 1) the lines / line stows themselves were such an un-orderly mess of spaghetti (poor packing) that the likelihood of a bag-lock was increased, double stow or not... or... 2) when the person packing went to do the double stow on the bite of line they were working on, they also wrapped in the bite next to it as well, again poor packing, not necessisairly a double stow specific problem.
Anyway, to anyone, if double stowing your lines seems so distasteful to y'all and even using the small rubber bands leaves a stow you're thinking is too loose... just double wrap the rubber band on when putting it on the D-bag like some have said up-post, it will accomplish the same thing.
(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Aug 15, 2006, 9:16 AM)
Aug 15, 2006, 10:04 AM
Post #57 of 75
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Found a packing trick
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Anyway, to anyone, if double stowing your lines seems so distasteful to y'all and even using the small rubber bands leaves a stow you're thinking is too loose... just double wrap the rubber band on when putting it on the D-bag like some have said up-post, it will accomplish the same thing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Good point! Wrapping a large rubber band twice around the nylon strap on the d-bag serves the same function as installing a small rubber band. The Tube Stow folks figured out that trick a decade ago.
Aug 15, 2006, 10:08 AM
Post #58 of 75
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Found a packing trick
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RWS says:
"Double-stowing in the sport world with 54' drogues will most likely yield a bag-lock."
Derek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are forgetting that RWS sells double-width rubber bands for civilian tandems.
They use an even stronger rubber band for military tandems (triple-width?) and caution that military rubber bands will probably cause a bag-lock if you are only hauling a 100 pound tandem student.
And I don't know what a hesitation band is either.
Care to enlighten me? TIA.
What I've heard called / "learned" as a hesitation band...
On a "traditional" sport reserve freebag (read... NOT the new Racer freebag), the continuous loop or bungie that most non-rigger jumpers would recognize or call a "stow" upon closer inspection... one will find passes through a channel on the freebag and is not actually attached to the freebag. Each "end" is used to stow a bite of the lines on the reserve after going through a gromet on the "flap" on the other side of the bag.
My words... the "theory" being, if the first stow comes undone, but the second doesn't, it will simply strip the hesitation band through the afore mentioned channel and the reserve will still get out of the bag. If the first stow doesn't undo it self... maybe.. there will be enough force on the hesitation band to strip it off of the other stow and through the channel and maybe the reserve will still get out of the bag.
Anyway, maybe one of you digital camera / computer / rigger wiz-kids out there can take a pic of what I'm talking about on a free bag and post it and help me out a bit...
(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Aug 15, 2006, 7:32 PM)
Aug 15, 2006, 7:37 PM
Post #63 of 75
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One of the problems is very few jumpers understand the difference between "staging" and "metering".
hmmm... I wouldn't expect everyone to get it right off... but I'd think that taking someone experienced in skydiving, but not a rigger, could take the definition of the two words and apply it to what they know about gear and get it right... i.e. 1) A main D-bag with rubber bands/gromets on the locking stows & rubber bands on the secondary stows is a staging device... 2) A slider is a metering device. QED
I guess it can get kinda fuzzy sometimes though... one could argue that the pocket on a free bag is a metering device while, overall, a free bag is a more of a staging device...
Okay, now I'm confused... DOH!!!
(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Aug 15, 2006, 7:40 PM)
Aug 16, 2006, 3:22 PM
Post #64 of 75
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Found a packing trick
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but saying that line stows on a traditional D-bag don't need to be sufficiently tight (where ever you care to draw that line) because free-bags / tail pockets don't is kind-of like saying a person doesn't need a rain-coat if stuck out in the rain because a duck doesn't...
I put a Stiletto 97 in a normal d-bag and a free-bag. It deployed the same with either system. Not apples and oranges, a Stiletto and a Stiletto. If the lines needed to be tight in rubber bands to get a good opening, why did it open the same with only 2 locking stows?
Quote:
Please add somemore context to ..."Double-stowing in the sport world with 54' drogues will most likely yield a bag-lock." ... or point us towards the RWS doc where that's contained so all of what that goes with can be seen.
I don't have the document, I was quoting another poster. My point is if a drogue has enough drag to deploy a tandem main can have a bag lock from double wrapping, a sport main can.
Quote:
Anyway, to anyone, if double stowing your lines seems so distasteful to y'all and even using the small rubber bands leaves a stow you're thinking is too loose... just double wrap the rubber band on when putting it on the D-bag like some have said up-post, it will accomplish the same thing.
And I recommend that. I know people succesfully double wrap rubber bands all the time. I also know it can cause line twists and bag locks.
Aug 16, 2006, 3:26 PM
Post #65 of 75
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Re: [riggerrob] Found a packing trick
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You are forgetting that RWS sells double-width rubber bands for civilian tandems.
I am aware of that. But if RWS says it can bag lock with the larger bands and I had one that I was able to prove on the ground was caused by double wrapping with smaller bands, it can and does happen.
People blame line dump for hard openings. Line dump doesn't hurt openings unless the lines wrap around each other. Bag strip does make for hard openings, but I have yet to ever see it or see video of it. So they make their stows super tight to prevent line dump, which doesn't prevent or fix anything. Again, if you are getting hard openings, use the correct size rubber bands/tube stows, make them snug for an orderly deployment, and slow down before deploying. If that doesn't fix it, PC's, Sliders, Pockets, New Line Sets, etc should fix it.
Aug 16, 2006, 3:31 PM
Post #66 of 75
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I put a Stiletto 97 in a normal d-bag and a free-bag. It deployed the same with either system. Not apples and oranges, a Stiletto and a Stiletto. If the lines needed to be tight in rubber bands to get a good opening, why did it open the same with only 2 locking stows?
Because its 2 different methods of baging a parachute which give equally acceptable results... a good opening... but the operative word is DIFFERENT.
(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Aug 16, 2006, 3:33 PM)
Aug 16, 2006, 11:52 PM
Post #69 of 75
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Okay... pack up your main with a bunch of loose stows on a normal D-Bag... let me know how that turns out... Tongue
I've done it. Worked fine. Opens normally. Just coil up the lines in the bottom of the container. Only down side is the risk of lines wrapping around a flap or entangling with each other since it makes for a less organized deployment..
Some people would have you believe that doing so would cause a hard opening. Not true.
Aug 17, 2006, 12:10 AM
Post #70 of 75
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Okay... pack up your main with a bunch of loose stows on a normal D-Bag... let me know how that turns out...
Tim,
I have over 1000 jumps on a bag with only 2 stows and a side pocket for the rest of the lines. And probably 800+ jumps with a conventional bag, all lines stowed, all with the same canopy. There seems to be no noticeable difference in the openings.
Aug 17, 2006, 1:30 AM
Post #71 of 75
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I have over 1000 jumps on a bag with only 2 stows and a side pocket for the rest of the lines. And probably 800+ jumps with a conventional bag, all lines stowed, all with the same canopy. There seems to be no noticeable difference in the openings.
I can only secind that. I have about 700 jumps on a freestow bag with 2 locking stows and in fact the openings feel smoother and cleaner. you can't even really feel the canopy coming off your back like that.
Aug 17, 2006, 7:33 AM
Post #72 of 75
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Re: [mjosparky] Found a packing trick
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Okay... pack up your main with a bunch of loose stows on a normal D-Bag... let me know how that turns out...
Tim,
I have over 1000 jumps on a bag with only 2 stows and a side pocket for the rest of the lines. And probably 800+ jumps with a conventional bag, all lines stowed, all with the same canopy. There seems to be no noticeable difference in the openings.
Understand & agree with that... but I'd still like to see HnS take a traditional D-bag, pack it up with the line stows really loose and go jump it and then see what he has to say after a neck breaker of an opening or two...
Aug 17, 2006, 9:50 AM
Post #73 of 75
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Re: [ZigZagMarquis] Found a packing trick
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Understand & agree with that... but I'd still like to see HnS take a traditional D-bag, pack it up with the line stows really loose and go jump it and then see what he has to say after a neck breaker of an opening or two... Tongue
Like I said, I have done it, only 2 stows, on a normal d-bag, the rest just coiled in the bottom of the pack tray. Normal deployment. Not a neck breaker.
Aug 17, 2006, 10:25 AM
Post #74 of 75
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Okay all...
Based on a PM that I rather wouldn't have received, and I'll leave it at that, I'll disengage from this tread... but at least wouldn't y'all at least agree that while not necessary for a good opening that tight (as long as not too tight) stows aren't a bad thing either and they may prevent other issues like say a loose line that was free stowed say half hitching around a flap on opening?
Aug 17, 2006, 5:06 PM
Post #75 of 75
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but at least wouldn't y'all at least agree that while not necessary for a good opening that tight (as long as not too tight) stows aren't a bad thing either and they may prevent other issues like say a loose line that was free stowed say half hitching around a flap on opening?
single stow.jpg
. 
... anyway... in a way, comparing a bag with line stows (like a traditional main D-bag) to a free-bag with a hesitation band and pocket, while they accomplise the same thing, and orderly canopy deployment, you're kinda comparing apples and oranges. The D-bag, with stowes, somewhat more "stages" the deployment as the lines unstow, one stow at a time, until the canopy comes out of the bag after reaching line-strech. The freebag somewhat more "meters" the deployment as it allows the bulk of the lines to flow out of the pocket until the last portion, held by the hesitaion bad / closing the freebag are undone allowing the bagged canopy out at line strech. Both methods are an end to the same means, but saying that line stows on a traditional D-bag don't need to be sufficiently tight (where ever you care to draw that line) because free-bags / tail pockets don't is kind-of like saying a person doesn't need a rain-coat if stuck out in the rain because a duck doesn't... 
