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First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings

 

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Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 14, 2006, 2:21 PM
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First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings Can't Post

Hey Everyone,

I finally had the chance to jump my own gear for the first time. I was happily greeted on the ground and could hear nothing but the word BEER.

EIther way I wanted to post my first thoughts of the canopy.

Jump 1: Hop n' Pop from 4500'
I dumped just after clearing the plane and it seemed to take a bit to start sniveling. I almost thought I had a PC in tow. I quickly realized that it was due to the slow deploy speed. As the caonpy was sniveling, it was throwing me around in the harness, it wasn't violent, but it wasn't like anything before. After opening I noticed it was going VERY fast. I've been jumping a Sabre 2 150 up to this point and it was nowhere this quick. Landed without issue.

Jump 2: 7500, 15 sec deploy
Much more normal feeling on deployment. Opening was the same, jostling me around a fair bit in the harness. Canopy turns crisp, riser controls are nice etc.

I love the canopy so far. I will do a few more jumps this weekend as well.

My question to the masses is this. Does anyone else get the feeling of the spectre throwing you around in the harness? My instructor said this was typical of a Spectre/7 cell, but I'm very curious. Any info is appreciated.

Thanks


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Aug 14, 2006, 2:29 PM
Post #2 of 90 (2348 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

I have about 200 jumps on a Spectre - that sounds about right for subterminal and terminal deployments. If I deploy stable, no, I don't feel like I'm being "thrown around" in the harness.

It's a snively canopy, especially on sub-terminal openings. My first jump on mine, a fellow jumper on the load (who also jumps one) looked at me right before I got out, with a smile, and said "It WILL open." Laugh


lauras  (D License)

Aug 14, 2006, 2:32 PM
Post #3 of 90 (2340 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

funky openings aside, your wing-loading of 1.04:1 is pretty exciting with 30 odd jumps. why the rush to downsize? i know you own it, but personally i would recommend that you stick it in the closet for a while, get your hands on something considerably bigger and jump jump jump.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 14, 2006, 3:03 PM
Post #4 of 90 (2298 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been well warned about the snivels. Maybe that's what's making me feel like i'm being jostled. It's the amount of time the canopy is sniveling and grabbing different pockets of air. It was fairly windy Saturday too, so maybe it was turbulent air.

I'll see this weekend...

Thanks


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 14, 2006, 3:17 PM
Post #5 of 90 (2281 views)
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Re: [lauras] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Lauras,

I know that a 135 is pretty agressive. I've worked with my instructors 100% in my purchase and they had me jumping different canopies along the way. I've been on a 150 since jump 22 I think and now have 36. I weigh 115 Lbs and they felt it would be Ok for me. To be honest, I've gotten this alot and I fully plan to take it very easy under this canopy. I'm not going to show my ego and say, "it can't happen to me" because I know it can. To be dead honest, the canopy did scare me a little. It was a huge jump in speed from a Sabre 2 150. Nonetheless both landings were great!

I am going to try the canopy on a no-wind day and see what that yields. If I feel uncomfortable, I WILL upsize. It honestly crossed my mind on the first jump/landing.

Just to explain as well, I've been solely concentrating on my canopy work since I've gotten my solo. I haven't even been working on my 'A' CoP. I promise, I will take it easy, I have a good head on my shoulders and know not to low turn etc... but if I can't land it consistently or don't feel comfortable under it, I will definately go to a 150 again. I was landing the 150 with ease and accuracy.

This canopy will be with me for a long time to come. It had 35 jumps on it when I bought it, and I plan to keep it for a very long time.


ntacfreefly

Aug 14, 2006, 3:31 PM
Post #6 of 90 (2263 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Same post, different names. "I plan to be careful"

There is no pilot, period IMO, who's ready for a 135 regardless of loading at 35 jumps.

There is no reason, at all, to have that canopy above your head. If you've 'gotten this a lot' then maybe it's time to seek advice from better canopy pilot instructors. There is still a lot of bad canopy advice out there - never badly intended, but still bad nonetheless. It's good you're asking your instructors, as a student you really don't have another resource, BUT instructors (just like the rest of us) can, and do, give bad advice.

With that said I've seen people survive a myriad of bad canopy choices so I'm not gonna go screaming "You're gonna die", but you are most definitely increasing your chances of getting hurt unnecessarily.

On a related side note I'm always disappointed to see how few instructors sit through a lot of the canopy courses going on. One DZ in particular didn't have 1 instructor attend the safety day canopy section, let alone any additional course work. IMO classes such as Flight 1 or Brian G's courses should be compulsary for anyone teaching any aspect of canopy flight. The notion that people can teach something that they know little to nothing about to newcomers is baffling to me. You wouldn't get coaching for 4 way FS from someone who only ever did CRW, right?

Blues,
Ian


(This post was edited by ntacfreefly on Aug 14, 2006, 3:37 PM)


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Aug 14, 2006, 3:41 PM
Post #7 of 90 (2243 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't take it too personally. There's always a problem with smaller guys/gals and canopies.

My "first" canopy was loaded at 1.15, and I had about the same number of jumps to yourself at the time. The difference was the canopy was a 170 (and an old, basic PD 170 at that, which isn't tapered and made of F-111).

The problem with a 135 is that, due to the size, the control lines are very short and typical "low-timer" errors are exacerbated. You'll probably be fine for a number of jumps - but that's not really the point. If you do muck up at some point (might misjudge things in heavy canopy traffic - something you'll be experiencing shortly I'm sure!) then you're going to hurt yourself.

Fly that 150 for a little longer. It's actually the right size for you at this time. Just for 100 jumps... Smile


proswooper  (D 27048)

Aug 14, 2006, 3:46 PM
Post #8 of 90 (2235 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Chris

I am with Ian and Laura on this. IT is a very common misconception that wingloading alone is enough to be a deciding factor in choosing a canopy. Especially at the early stages in jump careers.

A spectre 210 loaded at 1.0 will not fly like a spectre 135 at 1.0 it does not just scale down. there are many other factors that influence flight characteristics than wingloading alone.

the best thing i can recomend (apart from immediately upsizing before hospitalising) is to go to PD's website and read and download articles from Scott Miller about wingloading and canopy choice.

best of luck and hopefully you wont need it.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Aug 14, 2006, 4:41 PM
Post #9 of 90 (2199 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Chris,

I don't have the experience to give you advice on your canopy choice, but I'd like to point out that in ntacfreefly and proswooper you're getting advice from two top-level competition canopy pilots. I can't speak for Paul, but I know Ian does quite a bit of coaching and whenever we've talked, I've always gotten good, sensible advice from him.

For the record, I did 400+ jumps on my Spectre 190 loaded at 1.05. They're lovely canopies, aren't they?

dave.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 14, 2006, 4:49 PM
Post #10 of 90 (2192 views)
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Re: [proswooper] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with all the posts above, and have explained all this before in some of my previous posts. I'm not going to do it all over again, not because I don't want to but probably because you've all seen my other posts.

I have not only been talking to one person at my DZ. I've gotten advice from everyone and it's all pretty much the same. It's pretty agressive, but as long as I don't do anything stupid (which I know I can't always prevent what other peple are doing and how I may need to react), I should be ok until I build the experience.

I know wingloading is not the only factor. I know line length affects it, which also affects how quick the canopy reacts. The semi-elliptical canopy does the same. The smaller size of the canopy hitting the relative wind also plays how quickly it moves through the air. I know these are things to be aware of and I am.

My approaches are straight in to say the least. I have never landed with ther canopy traffic since I've been doing mostly hop n' pops and the other guys are doing rw or tandems or crew and need full altitude. I'm at a Cessna DZ at an airport with tonnes of outs. I realize I may go to another DZ at some point, but not anytime soon since I can't afford it after buying my rig.

In no way am I saying I am right and you guys are wrong because I know that's not true. The canopy is VERY agressive and I understand the consequences if I screw up. I have followedthe advice of my instructors and fellow DZ'ers wh watch my landings and aproaches and whatnot.

I bought this canopy as I got a great deal on it, and it is something I can use for a very long time to come.

I honestly do appreciate the input and concern. Like I said, when I go out this weekend and jump it in much less wind and I do not feel comfortable, I will stop jumping it. I can probably get a 150 in my container and that's what i'll do if necessary.

EDIT:
I once read on the forums about someone trying to use a Stiletto as a student canopy. Someone said If you gave a 16 yr old kid a Ferrari for their birthday, they generally be just as safe if you had bought a Corolla. They understand how dangerous it is to put something to the limits and do stupid things with it.

I may be completely wrong but maybe a canopy that is fairly agressive will give a better learning curve and understanding of how a canopy flies/lands early on. In essence making better canopy pilots. I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and would not do something that I feel threatened by, but I also wouldn't recommend that everyone be so agressive as learning curves are not the same. This agressive canopy will force me to learn very quickly how to fly the canopy in brakes, flat turns, uphill, downhill etc (downsizing checklist essentially)...


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Aug 14, 2006, 4:58 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Aug 14, 2006, 6:27 PM
Post #11 of 90 (2144 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Call me Mr Conservative, but I'd have to be forced at gun point at 30 jumps to do my first jump on a never-jumped-before down-sized canopy on a 4500' H&P...especially one that I was TOLD was going to be snivelly and someone had to re-assure me that it WILL open.

I see you saying thanks for the advice but I'm gonna do it anyway.
Good Luck. Keep us posted


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 14, 2006, 6:38 PM
Post #12 of 90 (2139 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha, well I was never personally reassured it was going to open. I was fully aware of the long snivels on Spectres. My snivel was about 700-800 feet. I did however do my first jump on a new-downsized rig at 4500. That was the least of my worries to tell you the truth. I was more concerned if the canopy would open without any problems, as it did. I know my EP's and I'm not afraid to use them, as mentioned in a previous post of mine.

I may not have mentioned either that my first jump on Saturday was my first jump in 2 weeks and the first once since my first reserve ride all on my first set of gear. I ended up bringing 3 cases of Keiths to the DZ for various reasons.

If you dont mind me asking, why would you be fearful of jumping new/downsized gear at 4500 feet? A few mals crossed my mind on opening but nothing that I'd be afraid to get out of. Now put me at 3000 and it's a whole new ballgame.


quinny  (C 3101)

Aug 14, 2006, 8:10 PM
Post #13 of 90 (2112 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Chris-Ottowa,
You have heard some really interesting points of view. Only you and your friends around you can chat and decipher that. I transitioned from a pd 190 at approx 400ft above sea level to a stiletto 135 3500ft above sea level. I learned pretty quickly how to fly that thing. However 700+ jumps later I am still jumping that canopy and enjoying it. My after thoughts are I should have listened to more people and transitioned down slower. But you are you.
I hope you enjoy your next couple of seasons dude and I might see you next summer on my tour of Canada!
Be safe and think clearly
Quinny


quinny  (C 3101)

Aug 14, 2006, 8:48 PM
Post #14 of 90 (2095 views)
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Re: [quinny] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh yeah...did someone have a Spectre 135 for sale at your dropzone???


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 14, 2006, 10:10 PM
Post #15 of 90 (2072 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Heard it all before. You can come up with all the reasons why you want to. You are not any more intelligent nor do you have a better learning curve then the last half dozen I can handle it cowboys that hammered.

You got some damn good advice from some people on here that really know what they are talking about. But you choose to ignore it.

This is a post from a guy who died last month, he hammered in under a canopy he had been told was too aggressive for his experience. Step right up, you can be next.

Quote:
i'll be here tomorrow and the next day, even though you think i know less than you. i appreciate your concern but, in my experience, those with above-average ability progress on a steeper learning curve than the average. don't mean to be a dick, but i've been listening to the bullshit for too long.

You are not now, nor will you ever be good enough not to die in this sport.


proswooper  (D 27048)

Aug 15, 2006, 12:54 AM
Post #16 of 90 (2046 views)
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Re: [proswooper] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Chris

you have been informed and you know the risks albeit you may not understand them so good luck.

Just so you know i am now in Europe about to start my third year at the world swooping championships where i have medalled at all meets i have attended. I know many people who have progressed differently but i learned to swoop on a BIG canopy and if you want to scare yourself under canopy you can on anysize canopy..

if you are intimidated by normal flying conditions on your current wing then you will not progress as you would if you had the confidence to explore the flight characteristics of the wing.

so to put it correctly by throwing yourself in the deep end of a sink or swim situation you will progress much slower in this situation.

did you download the articles from scott miller?

food for thought. if you want more speed out of your canopy learn how to fly it properly instead of downsizing.

I rarely post on this stuff because it is so common but i am bored in a hotel room waiting for the weather to improve

good luck man


dragon2  (D 101989)

Aug 15, 2006, 1:03 AM
Post #17 of 90 (2043 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I fully plan to take it very easy under this canopy.

I know not to low turn

And that's a problem. You WILL have to turn low at some point. You WILL have to land it with extra speed at some point. You don't get to choose WHEN.

So get ready for it NOW. Or, much better option, go jump a bigger canopy. A Spectre or similar 150 would be a great choice for you for say 200 jumps at least. Over here (The Netherlands) you can only jump a 135 even at such a low WL when you have 400 jumps. Hint?

What's your reserve?

I usually jump a Spectre 135 at 1:1.15, and I have 870+ jumps. I can land it downwind in someones back yard if I have to. Can you? Landing any canopy conservatively is easy. It's when the unexpected happens (out landing, having to avoid another canopy, someone on the ground, obstacle, downwind) that you prove you are ready for the canopy, or not. And at the moment, I'd say there is no way you are. Well, maybe you get lucky and don't have a problem untill you ar ready for it. Feel lucky?

Not bashing you, although maybe your instructors Wink It's just that a 135 is very small and can hurt you really bad. Trust the more experienced jumpers on this, they've seen it happen a gazillion times, unfortunately Unsure


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 15, 2006, 5:58 AM
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Re: [quinny] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh yeah...did someone have a Spectre 135 for sale at your dropzone???


There may be if I can get my paws on a Sabre 2 150... The Spectre only has 37 jumps on it.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 15, 2006, 6:08 AM
Post #19 of 90 (1981 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

To all the above responses...

I never once said I am better or "know" what I am doing so it's ok for me to jump that canopy. When I defend myself and my canopy choice it makes me look like I'm throwing my ego around and bashing the people who know best. That is completely not what I'm trying to do. I am taking all the advice I get and will talk to my instructors. You have all got me thinking that the canopy choice was bad, but I also don't have money to throw around to buy a new main or even a used main.

AS for the canopy choice in the first place, it wasn't a move to downsize, the rig I got with my instructors advice had a 135 in it. We all figured due to my weight and w/l I would be ok as long as I did a few jumps in between. I jumped student gear (Manta 288) to jump 12 or so, then jumped a Silhouette 210 for 3 or 4, Pilot 168 for 2, Sabre 2 150 for 14 I think. My instructors watched my progress the whole way and cleared me for the 135. Like I said in my above posts, If I jump the canopy in less wind this weekend and it makes me uncomfortable, I will look for a 150.

So please don't take anything I say as: I'm a 30 jump miracle and have more know how and skill than you guys. I am simply stating my situation so everyone can understand.


karenmeal  (D 24737)

Aug 15, 2006, 6:44 AM
Post #20 of 90 (1965 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I may be completely wrong but maybe a canopy that is fairly agressive will give a better learning curve and understanding of how a canopy flies/lands early on. In essence making better canopy pilots. I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and would not do something that I feel threatened by, but I also wouldn't recommend that everyone be so agressive as learning curves are not the same. This agressive canopy will force me to learn very quickly how to fly the canopy in brakes, flat turns, uphill, downhill etc (downsizing checklist essentially)...

You are correct in believing that you may be wrong.

If you pick a canopy that is too small for you, you will be forced to focus on saving your ass on every jump rather that focusing on developing good form.

If in the next 10-15 jumps you seem to experience an incidence of a strong crosswind that seems to push your canopy over right as you finish your flare, this would be a good indication that the parachute is TOO SMALL FOR YOU.

The problem with jumping a canopy that is too small for you isn't that you can't land it when conditions are reasonably good.. but that when other things go wrong, having a larger canopy could have saved you.

You have 30 jumps, I'm guessing that you're not yet super experienced in spotting. So it is probably more likely that you are going to land out than someone who is more experienced than you. Well, good luck with the small canopy then.

Another thing about jumping a small canopy at 30 jumps. You mentioned you're focusing on solely canopy control right now. Well, how is your body position on opening? Now that you're jumping a smaller, more highly loaded canopy it's going to demand a better body position. Can you deliver in that area? You are currently more likely to get line twists on opening that someone who is more experienced. Say you burn through a good chunk of altitude kicking out of line twists and then find yourself in more crowded airspace being forced to deal with flying your little canopy among other people. That would be fun.

Or how about packing? I've seen plenty of people with 30 jumps packing parachutes. I don't see many that can properly handle a canopy that only has 40 jumps on it. So you might be packing sloppier than a more experienced jumper which means you could be more likely to have a malfunction. Then you get to deal with landing your too-small reserve too, under pressure, possibly off the DZ. Fun!

But maybe you're just hiring a packer.. in which case I have a whole other lecture about not understanding your gear.

I hope that things turn out alright and that maybe you make a smart decision and upsize. Looks like you should have put a lot more jumps on a 170. Maybe you can bo back and do about 20 on the pilot.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 15, 2006, 6:57 AM
Post #21 of 90 (1953 views)
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Re: [karenmeal] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Karen,

As far as the reserve goes, it's a pd143 and I've flown it already 2 weeks ago, unintentionally. It was fine.

I've been spotting since jump 10 and spot for myself all the time. Never once landed anywhere near off DZ. I know about flying with rear risers in a tailwind, and fronts in a headwind. Also that a little brakes can get me back from a long spot as well. I have looked into alot of info on canopy control.

For body position, I think I'm pretty stable for the most part. I haven't had line twists since my student jumps and once on the Sabre 150 due to end cell closure on one side.

Packing. I've packed every chute I've jumped since about jump 10 as well. To be honest, I think my packing goes into the bag very nicely and have never had a problem on deployment. I take alot of care in my packing, especially since my reserve ride which I thought was my fault, but turned out to be a tension knot. Still could be packing error but it happened and I got out of it.

As far as jumping a bigger canopy goes, again, I am considering it. A 170 probably won't fit in my container, but I'm sure a 150 will. I am seriously considering a 150. I do take every bit of input from here and consider it and talk to my instructors. I am not in any way disregarding what anyone has said in this post.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Aug 15, 2006, 11:23 AM
Post #22 of 90 (1867 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I never once said I am better or "know" what I am doing so it's ok for me to jump that canopy. When I defend myself and my canopy choice it makes me look like I'm throwing my ego around and bashing the people who know best.

Quote:
I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and would not do something that I feel threatened by, but I also wouldn't recommend that everyone be so agressive as learning curves are not the same. This agressive canopy will force me to learn very quickly

If you won't recommend to others why do it yourself?


georgerussia  (C 35731)

Aug 15, 2006, 11:58 AM
Post #23 of 90 (1850 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been on a 150 since jump 22 I think and now have 36. I weigh 115 Lbs and they felt it would be Ok for me.

The problem is not your weight, the problem is the canopy size. According to USPA SIM 6.10.B(3), any canopy less than 150 sqf is considered advanced with any wing loading. I know you're in Canada, but people and canopies still are the same.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 15, 2006, 12:18 PM
Post #24 of 90 (1837 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

You know what, we can go back and forth on this all day. I refuse to be seen as a conceited "30 jump wonder" because I'm not and I realize that. I used the advice of my instructors (yes, that's plural) for this purchase. Just me responding in my defence makes me look like a conceited student.

If you have advice or opinions for me, I'm more than willing to listen. If you want to nit-pick and warp what I say to your liking, so be it. I said nothign about a canopy, I stated that learning curves are different for different people. Have you never seen someone


stupid that makes you say, "they let him/her jump from planes? WOW!"????

There are alot of people at my DZ that I trust and respect. If they didn't think a 135 was safe for me to jump, they wouldn't let me jump it. They have seen my progression and know my skill level first hand. Like always though, I'm not saying this in disregard to the good advice I've gotten, I'm simply stating that first hand advice is what I go by. I may end up jumping a bigger canopy, we'll have to see. I'm going to leave it at that. If anyone else has advice or opinions, feel free, I'll gladly take them into consideration.

EDIT: I wouldn't normally snap back like this, but I'm getting annoyed with people picking out little details that don't make any sense to what they're claiming. I kow what you were trying to say MJO, but that's not what it said. I have taken the advice from here, I will consider a bigger canopy and speak to my instructors about it as well.


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Aug 15, 2006, 1:20 PM)


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Aug 15, 2006, 12:38 PM
Post #25 of 90 (1823 views)
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Re: [georgerussia] First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings [In reply to] Can't Post

That's interesting to know... but I mean to an extent, if you get like a 90 lb girl or guy, they are jumping a pretty low wing loading on a 150 or 170. But nonetheless I never realized that a 135 is considered a HP canopy at a low wing loading.


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