Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
malfunctions

 


thepollster  (D 12122)

Feb 28, 2001, 1:47 PM
Post #1 of 22 (4659 views)
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malfunctions Can't Post

What was your last mal?
<FORM METHOD=POST ACTION="/cgi-bin/forums/dopoll.pl"><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="pollname" VALUE="983396822thepollster">
malfunction junction, whats your function?
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="1"> spinning mal, elliptical canopy
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="2"> spinning mal, square canopy
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="3"> p.c. in tow
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="4"> total mal, no p.c. out
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="5"> baglock
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="6"> canopy/line damage
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="7"> line over
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="8"> other-please elaborate
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="9"> Ihaven't cut away yet, but I had a "mal" that cleared right when I went to chop
<INPUT TYPE=SUBMIT NAME="PollSubmit" VALUE="Submit vote"></FORM>
If there is a good story to go along with your answer, please reply. The mal forum takes too long to get a post up.




cyberskydive  (C 28534)

Feb 28, 2001, 5:38 PM
Post #2 of 22 (4589 views)
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Re: malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

Pilot chute around nose and squuezzing liners on right side, slow spin right, toggle input didnt correct, WAAAYYY off the dz, red raven.

I posted it in the MAL forum day before yesterday or so :)

D.Chisolm C-28534
webmaster@sunraydesigns.com
http://www.sunraydesigns.com


Stacy  (D License)

Mar 1, 2001, 8:36 AM
Post #3 of 22 (4549 views)
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only twice I've come close to chopping. Once was a hard pull (that I did not pack), but the third yank finally got it. the other time was a set of NASTY line twists. I never wanna have to kick that long again!!!

Stacy
http://astro.temple.edu/~sweeks


tigra  (C 27417)

Mar 1, 2001, 9:41 AM
Post #4 of 22 (4542 views)
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Twice ( a few years ago) I had a brake line which was hung up, sort of tangled and would not "unstow"- one I had packed, another someone else did. (velcroless toggles when they were "new", my packer and I were both stowing them with "s" folds, which works fine when you have the velcro) Put me in to a spiral, not radical but disorienting all the same, and the first time I would have chopped, but had a hard time getting hold of the pillow (because of the spiral) finally I pulled down on the other toggle which stopped the turn, big light bulb there!, which not only made me able to chop, but more importantly, made it easier to clear the tangle in my brake line, which is what I did. When the same thing happened a few weeks later, I knew what to do.

Luckily, the first time I had enough altitude to work with it, it was a low speed mal, even with the spiral, and I had pulled a little high and reached for my toggles right away. The second time, I had a long spot and steered with my risers til about 1000'- too low to chop by the time I discovered my problem. If I couldn't clear it, I was thinking about how to I was going to land it, if I could flare with my rear risers and one brake unstowed, and planning on a rough one!

But I also learned a new way to stow my brakes and have not had that problem since.

Blue ones!




jtval  (D 26340)

Mar 2, 2001, 6:28 AM
Post #5 of 22 (4500 views)
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i've had a pc hesitation and a few line twists(jump #19).
(brief summary) i pulled my rc nothing happened. one hand grabbed my cutaway handle the other elbowed the rig. poof there it was. nice slow opening but some line twists due to my form.
my thing is. why do you kick out of it? i don't i just softly/slowly pull the risers apart like if you were on a twisted swingset. work just as good and i dont see any hazards of a spinning mal. am i missing something i should be thinking about? or am i just doing it "my own way".
safety first.

i realize that on a total mal you shouldn't cutaway but i was just preparing for whatever might happen. i didnt know what was gonna happen when i beat that rig.(plus it was the first thing of that sort and at jump 19,whew!!)



Craig

Mar 2, 2001, 8:18 AM
Post #6 of 22 (4493 views)
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In reply to:
jtval wrote:
why do you kick out of it? i don't i just softly/slowly pull the risers apart like if you were on a twisted swingset. work just as good and i dont see any hazards of a spinning mal. am i missing something i should be thinking about? or am i just doing it "my own way".
safety first.
I think kicking out may help to clear them faster. One reason that it may be important to not waste time on line twists may be how the canopy acts, or is expected to act in a twist situation. On more docile canopies line twists seem to be nothing more than a hassle. From what I have seen/heard the higher the loading on the canopy, the more of a problem they become. Sometimes the canopy is wanting to twist up faster than you can kick out of them. If the canopy happens to decide to spin up, and you happened to have a low shoulder, not you body position is locked in by the twists. This could cause a shallow turn on a more docile canopy, or on a more highly loaded canopy a violent spin in which you and your canopy are flying towards the ground losing a couple hundred feet per revolution.

Craig



jtval  (D 26340)

Mar 2, 2001, 8:44 AM
Post #7 of 22 (4486 views)
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craig---
thanks. I wasn't even considering the load ratio. but i dont think i would waste much time on a violently spinning twist...(undo rsl)cut ,pull
once i get my gear delivered the rsl will not be there to bother with.



Tee  (C License)

Mar 2, 2001, 9:40 AM
Post #8 of 22 (4481 views)
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In reply to:
why do you kick out of it? i don't i just softly/slowly pull the risers apart like if you were on a twisted swingset.
You got it right, you DO want to pull the risers apart but you also want to kick to so that will get you out of the line twist faster. Even if your canopy is flying straight, if there are other jumpers in the air, you want to be out of the line twists quickly, aware of where the other jumpers are and ready to steer. Smile



Iflyme  (B 4421)

Mar 2, 2001, 8:14 PM
Post #9 of 22 (4444 views)
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For sure it's your choice whether to RSL or not, but RSL has saved more people than it has harmed...



miked10270  (D 10270)

Mar 3, 2001, 5:28 PM
Post #10 of 22 (4429 views)
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Hi there,

A couple of things strike me on this post:

Firstly, line twists are more of a nuisance than a malfunction (apart from high wing loading ellipticals). Like stuck sliders and closed end cells they are fixable. Personally, I'd define a malfunction as something not fixable without some drastic action like reserve drills or cutting a line with a knife.

Secondly (and perhaps both my soapbox & I should apologise) I am against the RSL. Firstly, it is a mindless device that will pull your reserve pin as the attached main riser is pulled away from your harness whether you want the reserve out or not. This can cause more problems than it solves and as I've already said, if the Cypres was invented 15 years earlier the RSL would not have seen the light of day! An RSL is one more thing on your rig and as such is one more thing to go wrong! For example, any riggers out there who've found a misrouted RSL on a reserve repack?

Just my $0.02

Mike D10270.



Craig

Mar 3, 2001, 6:27 PM
Post #11 of 22 (4424 views)
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In reply to:
Secondly (and perhaps both my soapbox & I should apologise) I am against the RSL. Firstly, it is a mindless
device that will pull your reserve pin as the attached main riser is pulled away from your harness whether you
want the reserve out or not. This can cause more problems than it solves and as I've already said, if the
Cypres was invented 15 years earlier the RSL would not have seen the light of day! An RSL is one more thing
on your rig and as such is one more thing to go wrong! For example, any riggers out there who've found a
misrouted RSL on a reserve repack?
While I agree that the RSL is a passive device and should not change your reserve activation procedures, it can be released in the event you do NOT want it to pull the reserve pin. I will say that the RSL has a potential to cause problems such as a broken riser, this is not as common since reinforcements were implemented in the construction. Also the RSL is not a good idea for camera/skysurf/CRW types of jumps since stability during deployment is more important. I have to disagree with the comment about CYPRES taking the place of an RSL. There are situations where a CYPRES would not save someone because of a low cutaway (you will have to reach 78mph before it will fire) and an RSL would have deployed the reserve in time. I would like to hear more about the misrouted RSL's you have found. I have heard the issues with the ring on the reserve side of the RSL hanging up under the reserve cable housing, but this is more of a design flaw. I belive this has been answered with the addition of tapes to cover the end of the housing to prevent the ring from getting under the housing. Just curious.

Craig



miked10270  (D 10270)

Mar 4, 2001, 5:42 AM
Post #12 of 22 (4406 views)
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Hi Craig,

First off I do dabble in CReW, but that isn't the sole reason against RSLs. I hve actually caught a misrouted RSL on a FL check - It had been disconnected last jump and then re-connected but now THROUGH the harness ring. Yes, I know it seems a stupid & impossible mistake, but does anyone want to give odds on the RSL not keeping the cutaway main in tow if it had been used?

Next, picture the scenario: poor seperation after freefall and a wrap/entanglement. depending on the mechanics of the problem, are you SURE of being able to disconnect your RSL and stow it so it doesn't catch as you chop?

Next scenario; I saw a first time student go out on, check canopy and next thing her reserve PC was out! turns out she pulled the tag on her RSL mistaking it for a steering toggle!!

We do have a confidential reporting system here in the UK and there have been NUMEROUS reports of riggers finding misrouted RSLs during kit checks & repacks!

Let's face it, does every skydiver do the routine maintenance on their rig that they're supposed to? Like at least once a month dismantling the 3-ring and flexing the webbing so the nylon doesn't "set"? There have been occasions where one riser has released before the other and if that's the riser the RSL is attached to...

IMHO htere is ONE way to activate your reserve, that's to pull the reserve handle (usually after cutaway).Cypres is there for the non-conscious skydiver who would otherwise "burn-in". Where a RSL has made the (50ft) difference in a LOW cutaway, then personally I would have to question the individual skydivers thoughts & actions in cutting away so low!

Just my $0.02

Mike D10270.



flyboy62000  (D 29937)

Mar 4, 2001, 2:28 PM
Post #13 of 22 (4386 views)
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It is important to check your gear before each jump and if you use the RSL it should be included in the check. I use my RSL and include it in my gear check before I gear up to go to the plane. I check the 3-ring system to be sure the rings are set properly and the cable is through the loop and stowed in the keepers. I check that the reserve cable moves freely in the housing and that the pin is in the closing loop properly. I also check the bridle routing and the main pin to be sure it is in the proper position and that the pilot chute is cocked. I am a pilot and always do a good inspection before a flight. This carries over to skydiving and I feel it is important to do a good gear check before every jump. I may decide to not use the RSL later but for now I will use it.

Blue Skies,
Adam



Craig

Mar 4, 2001, 3:46 PM
Post #14 of 22 (4381 views)
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I have to agree with Adam since were on the topic of malfunctions. I check my gear before I gear up every jump. If for some reason I would get bumped, or the load gets put on hold, I will check it again before putting my rig on. I also do my gear checks the same way every time, ie. up the front and down the back. I have found two potential problems on rented gear myself. One was a misrouted bridle on a BOC rig. Leaving the D-bag it came up from under the top of the right flap as it should to the pin and closing loop, but then it went back up to where it came from at the top of the right flap. Someone probibally opened and re-closed the rig without taking out the PC and bridle and repacking it, instead just closed the right flap over the bridle bringing the pin out the top. This would have most likely resulted in a PC in tow. The other potential problem was a cutaway cable that had a nick taken out of it just above the 3-ring retaining loop. This had the potential to cause a hard pull, or possibly impossible to release riser in the event of a cutaway. Also, check those handles before you leave the door of the plane, better to find any lost or folded under handles while your STILL in the plane. I've seen some jumpers that get in to what I would say is to big of a hurry for the next load and possibly being too complacent, gearing up and having to run to catch the plane. Personally, I don't like to be bothered while checking my gear, and like to have it on at least 5 minutes before I catch the plane. I just don't like to feel rushed. Everyone knows that most malfunctions can be prevented, you just have to take the time to prevent them.

Be safe,
Craig



Brokeneagle  (D 27414)

Mar 5, 2001, 11:14 AM
Post #15 of 22 (4351 views)
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I had a baglock on my 26th jump off student status-it lasted almost 5 seconds- I noticed there was no familiar "tug" at my shoulders when I threw out my BOC-I half-turned to make sure the pilot chute wasn't caught in a burble,thumped the container twice hard with my elbow and as I was grasping my handles to peel 'em, it opened out into the most beautiful canopy I'd thought I'd never see! Laugh



Craig

Mar 5, 2001, 11:39 AM
Post #16 of 22 (4347 views)
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In reply to:
Brokeneagle wrote:
I had a baglock on my 26th jump off student status-it lasted almost 5 seconds- I noticed there was no familiar
"tug" at my shoulders when I threw out my BOC-I half-turned to make sure the pilot chute wasn't caught in a
burble,thumped the container twice hard with my elbow and as I was grasping my handles to peel 'em, it
opened out into the most beautiful canopy I'd thought I'd never see!
This mal sounds more like a PC in tow, or a hesitation. A bag lock is where the lines have reached linestreach, but the PC won't pull the bag off the canopy. In any event, glad it all worked out OK.

Craig



Cacophony  (D 23912)

Mar 6, 2001, 12:38 PM
Post #17 of 22 (4313 views)
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I had a very similar experience on my 207th jump this past weekend© I was jumping completely new gear© My PC is a little weird and we were having trouble cocking it© My Master Rigger said that it was ok to jump, it just looked like crap© Well, I almost cut-away because of a PC in tow© I'm not trashing the rigger or anything, I'm just sharing my story©


Safe landings,
Alex C-30872


BenW  (C License)

Mar 6, 2001, 11:10 PM
Post #18 of 22 (4289 views)
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This talk of RSLs has me thinking. I had a lineover malfunction in January. As the canopy came out of the bag it looked deformed (you notice this kind of thing...) and as it started to develop the LH half of the canopy stayed in a mess. The RH side 'popped' open. Obviously the alarm bells were going at this point!

As soon as the RH side opened fully, the canopy went into a violent LH spin. This all seemed to take a long time to happen. Once this spin had started - maybe 3/4 of a turn later, I think "I'm outta here!"

I have an RSL and yes, it can be detached. Did I even think about this little strap on my right shoulder? No. I followed my reserve drills to the letter, even including shouting out what I was doing!

The reserve open perfectly with no twists or even end cell closure. What if I'd have waited longer? Would I have had a whole load of line twists? Perhaps the RSL should be removed because I didn't even give it a second thought, let alone unclip it because I had a spinning mal.

I'm not really sure what to do! Obviously I know now that I can get the drills right and pull both handles. I don't like the idea that if I get a spinning mal again and I wait for longer until cutting away, I'll end up with problems under the reserve! I suppose I'll keep jumping with the RSL until I can make a more informed decision.

Any ideas? I don't do CRW and at the moment only really jump up to four way RW with a little solo/2way freefly.

Ben





Zennie

Mar 7, 2001, 5:41 AM
Post #19 of 22 (4271 views)
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In reply to:
Perhaps the RSL should be removed because I didn't even give it a second thought, let alone unclip it because I had a spinning mal.
In a high-speed mal situation I don't think fumbling around to unhook the RSL is a good idea. You did the right thing.

In reply to:
I'm not really sure what to do! Obviously I know now that I can get the drills right and pull both handles.
In a way you sort of answered your own question. In this case, the RSL probably beat your reserve pull, but you did pull both handles. The RSL is intended to help in two situations:

1. For the person who cuts away but doesn't pull reserve.
2. For the person who is below Cypres altitude/speed and needs the reserve out ASAP after a chop.

I think you've proven that you don't need it for #1, so the real question for you is whether you think you may need it in situation #2. If you stick to your decision altitude, I don't think #2 is a problem either. I'm not advocating RSL one way or another, it depends on your own unique situation.


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Mar 7, 2001, 9:34 AM
Post #20 of 22 (4254 views)
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In reply to:
In a way you sort of answered your own question. In this case, the RSL probably beat your reserve pull, but you did pull both handles. The RSL is intended to help in two situations:

1. For the person who cuts away but doesn't pull reserve.
2. For the person who is below Cypres altitude/speed and needs the reserve out ASAP after a chop.

I think you've proven that you don't need it for #1, so the real question for you is whether you think you may need it in situation #2. If you stick to your decision altitude, I don't think #2 is a problem either. I'm not advocating RSL one way or another, it depends on your own unique situation.
I just want to clear something up here.. The RSL and Cypres have NOTHING to do with each other.. The Cypres is an active device, the RSL a passive.. The Cypres will fire your reserve if you reach or exceed 78mph vertical speed between approx. 130'AGL and 1050'AGL (designed to fire at 750AGL, but may fire up to 300' higher in certain situations according to SSK).. The RSL will deploy your reserve after a cutaway - regardless of altitude, body position, speed, etc.. Don't confuse the two - they are meant for two totally different purposes..

Mike



Zennie

Mar 7, 2001, 10:06 AM
Post #21 of 22 (4250 views)
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You are exactly right and I thought I was clearly distinguishing the two with the second situation. Apparently not. But that was my point.

You don't want to have the thought even enter your mind that your Cypres will bail you out after a cutaway because there are situations where it will think you're under a good canopy even when you're not. Chopping without an RSL and assuming your Cypres will bail you out is a recipe for disaster.

That was the point of my second statement. Hope that clarifies things.


------------
Blue Skies!

Zennie


wildblue  (D 26027)

Mar 7, 2001, 1:08 PM
Post #22 of 22 (4236 views)
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In reply to:
For sure it's your choice whether to RSL or not, but RSL has saved more people than it has harmed...
Really? Do you have anything to back this up? Or is this just from personal observations and beliefs? Just curious if someone had actually documented "RSL Saves"





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