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mjasantos  (D 21310)

Oct 8, 2002, 3:20 PM
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This is a copy of an e-mail sent to the IPC Info List (ipc-info-l@fai.org)
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Standard FS versus Olympic FS...

Hello all,

At the last IPC Meeting (January 2002) some statistics were introduced to justify why the number of rounds in Formation Skydiving events should be less than what is currently…

The idea presented then was that, after the 2nd round, very rarely occur changes at the top places…

As always, the exception confirms the rule… we have here a very recent example, the World Cup 2002 in 4-Way Formation Skydiving held at Ampuriabrava, finished today…

Have a look at the attached file and take your own conclusions…

… the 3 top teams finished with above 22.0 averages;
… a team with 21.6 didn’t get a medal;
… Majik, the winners, if the Meet finished after 3 rounds would place 4th;
… Vertical, who finished 2nd, would be the winners if the Meet had only 2 rounds; after Round 3 they have been 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd and finally 2nd…
… Maubeuge who finished 3rd, would be the winners if the Meet finished with 3 rounds; from that round they have been changing from 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 2nd and finally 3rd; without the last round they would have been 2nd;
… Norgies, who finished 4th, would have been changing from 1st (exaequo) to 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 2nd until round 6; if the Meet have finished there they would have been 2nd… only beyond there they went for the 4th place until final…

My conclusion: the most rounds you have in one competition the biggest probability you’ll have that the final result represents the real situation… 10 is a good number of rounds… don’t make it more, but please don’t make it less… on this event we still had important changes from round 9 to 10…

If IPC wants to make Parachuting and Olympic Event, please don’t change Formation Skydiving as it is now… keep 4-way and 8-way as it is and instead create a "new format" for the Olympic Event… then we would have the "4-way and 8-way standard" and may be the “4-way and 8-way Olympic”, but as separate events.

Hopefully this can be considered!

Anyway we won’t have Parachuting in Olympics before 2012…

Thanks and Blue Skies!
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Attachments: FS_4_World_Cup_2002.xls (22.5 KB)


weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 8, 2002, 4:01 PM
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right on, but they did have cuts after rounds 9 & 10, too, do you support that?


mjasantos  (D 21310)

Oct 8, 2002, 4:30 PM
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I'm not sure about what do you mean by "cuts after rounds 9 & 10", but if I understood well that is what I think it should be:

- All the teams compete until round 8;

- Then you have the semi-finals, with the first-half of the teams based on their classification after Round 8;

- Finally you have the finals, with the first-half of the teams based on their classification after Round 9.

This is OK and is standard procedure at FS IPC Competitions.

I didn't mean to say that every teams should do the 10 rounds...

I agree with the format they used for the World Cup at Ampuriabrava... those cuts will work as semi-finals and finals!


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 9, 2002, 9:30 AM
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In reply to:

My conclusion: the most rounds you have in one competition the biggest probability you’ll have that the final result represents the real situation…

Doesn't that depend on how you define "the real situation"?

3 rounds, 8 rounds, 10 rounds are all arbitrary choices, and all are equally "real", IMO.


Watcher  (D 24876)

Oct 9, 2002, 9:50 AM
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Well, 10 rounds typically gets pretty close to exhausting the dive pool, ussually after 11 you have maybe 2-3 pts left, so by going 10 rounds you get to see the teams do everything once, That is how I would define "the real situation".

3 rounds would be crazy, because it might happen to be your weakest blocks and because you did not get to to see the other 16-19 blocks, which are much faster you lose. thats crap!


arlo  (D License)

Oct 9, 2002, 10:05 AM
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In reply to:
3 rounds would be crazy, because it might happen to be your weakest blocks and because you did not get to to see the other 16-19 blocks, which are much faster you lose. thats crap!

I would prefer to have the full 10 rounds for a meet as well. I think it's awesome getting to cover most of the randoms/blocks (unlike nats where our fav #14...was drawn for round 11). But I don't agree with your logic regarding the 3 rounds possibly being your weakest blocks/randoms. You lose because you don't have the highest score after 3 rounds. You should be equally as strong in all formations so as not to use "first 3 rounds were our weakest" as an excuse for losing a meet. If you're consistently in the low end of the scores after 3 consecutive rounds, then your team, most likely, isn't the strongest at that meet on that day...

blues,
arloSly


weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 9, 2002, 10:25 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
3 rounds would be crazy, because it might happen to be your weakest blocks and because you did not get to to see the other 16-19 blocks, which are much faster you lose. thats crap!

I would prefer to have the full 10 rounds for a meet as well. I think it's awesome getting to cover most of the randoms/blocks (unlike nats where our fav #14...was drawn for round 11). But I don't agree with your logic regarding the 3 rounds possibly being your weakest blocks/randoms. You lose because you don't have the highest score after 3 rounds. You should be equally as strong in all formations so as not to use "first 3 rounds were our weakest" as an excuse for losing a meet. If you're consistently in the low end of the scores after 3 consecutive rounds, then your team, most likely, isn't the strongest at that meet on that day...

blues,
arloSly

Very true, and after 10 rounds it becomes even more apparent who has the best team (including videoWink)


mjasantos  (D 21310)

Oct 9, 2002, 10:41 AM
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In reply to:
Doesn't that depend on how you define "the real situation"?

3 rounds, 8 rounds, 10 rounds are all arbitrary choices, and all are equally "real", IMO.

Watcher has defined it pretty well on the previous post! Myself wouldn't explain it better!

The initial IPC goal was to make FS competitions atractive to the media, with higher chances to see an approval of Parachuting as Olympic Sport.

2 or 3 years ago in Finland it was tested by world-class top teams a competition format similar to this one (I don't remember all the details):

- 4 rounds, where round after round you would get grounded the bottom half of the teams according to their ranking in the last round completed;

- jumping altitude: 5,000 ft;

- working time: 15 seconds;

- 1st formation would be always something like a star, and the time would only start when the team got that star done;

- then there were 2 possibilities: find the best time to complete a 5 points sequence or see how many points you score in 15"...

This was the general idea... a fast competition, where FS could be seen from the ground, etc..

Is this the Formation Skydiving I would like to train? NO!!!

I prefer to have the complete pool exhausted in a competition, jumping for a working time of 35", and at least have some rounds (now they are 8) where regardless the team's performance you are allowed to compete... on the format I mentioned, teams take the serious risk to be training a full season and then get to a competition and be eliminated after one round... if such was the situation, at the World Cup in Ampuriabrava, teams like Germany (EADS), who classified in the first half wouldn't have passed from the 1st round...

If IPC still intends to place a bid for having Parachuting as an Olympic Sport in 2012, by creating an "Olympic Format" you may get people who are interested about it and go for it... although the format I mentioned wouldn't have too much connection with the Formation Skydiving as it is now...

Blue Skies! Cool


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Oct 9, 2002, 10:48 AM
Post #9 of 33 (4357 views)
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This entire "skydiving at the Olympics" thing has been going on for years and to me it's absolutely inconceivable how little the IPC understands what is and what is not "good TV".

You can read a bit about my opinions about the situation HERE in a December 1999 OmniSkore Tidbit.


BikerBabe  (D 18644)

Oct 9, 2002, 4:03 PM
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I totally agree with you.

For example, my parents came to the 4-way competition at Nationals this year. It was a relatively short drive, and it was a chance for them to see what I enjoy doing. Now, please imagine, if you will, the biggest whuffos on the planet. They wouldn't jump out of a plane if you paid them, and they had no clue what competition FS was about. As a matter of fact, when I told them I'd be at Nationals, they said "Nationals in what? They have that?"

They were positively RIVETED by the competition! The spent the vast majority of their time in the auditorium at SDC, watching the judging. They didn't care who the teams were...they were genuinely interested in it, and I think they learned a lot, too. Omniskore doesn't hurt, either... LOL...they kept coming up to me between rounds and making comments on the Open class standings, and how close some of the rounds were...I started relying on them for updates on the scores! They even picked favorites.

Anyway, they spent more time watching that one meet than they have watching golf in their entire lives, yet golf made the Olympics.

I know the full ten rounds made it much more enjoyable for them, and they certainly didn't get bored. And why would TV have to show all 10 rounds, anyway? They don't show all of the heats of the 100m dash. Heck, they don't even televise a lot of the sports at all. Dressage, anyone?


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Oct 9, 2002, 4:12 PM
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Quote:
Dressage, anyone?

Actually, dressage is covered on the RFDTV channel with a regularly scheduled program called "Dressage Today" -- on both DISH and DirecTV. Go fig.

Also, my -guess- is that there actually are more people in the U.S. that can relate to dressage than skydiving -- so, I guess it does make sense afterall.

It also get's coverage on http://www.saddletude.com -- kinda their version of OmniSkore.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 10, 2002, 8:39 AM
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In reply to:

Very true, and after 10 rounds it becomes even more apparent who has the best team (including videoWink)

Depends how you define "best". A team of very skillful old guys may do very well for 5 or six rounds and then tire, and be passed by less skilled but more athletic youngsters. So is "best" the most skillful, or those with the best endurance? I know for sure that I make more mistakes in the later rounds of a competition when I'm tired.

Track and field has multiple events from 100m to marathon, and best at one distance doesn't mean best at any other.


Watcher  (D 24876)

Oct 10, 2002, 8:45 AM
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But running is the same thing over and over (One foot in front of the other). The formations and moves in the blocks are different.

As for endurance, I know many old people that can go longer than some younger people. Us "youngsters" get tired too, I think a bigger difference in elder vs youthful is the learning curve. We learn faster and think faster, faster reaction (Note: this is a gross generalization that we all know is not true in its entirety, but its funny to make a point), its a matter of mind not so much body.

Jonathan


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Oct 10, 2002, 9:19 AM
Post #14 of 33 (4299 views)
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Quote:
A team of very skillful old guys may do very well for 5 or six rounds and then tire, and be passed by less skilled but more athletic youngsters.

Of course, you can always have a rule that says you only have six rounds in a day unless the competitors & meet director agree to more -- oh wait, we already have that. Wink

Honestly though, I thought running seven rounds on the first day of 4-way this year kinda sucked. I felt pretty dang rushed through things only to just plod along on day two -- which seemed to take freekin' forever.


weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 10, 2002, 11:00 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

Very true, and after 10 rounds it becomes even more apparent who has the best team (including videoWink)

then you are not training correctly. period -- end of story, and the team that wins because they are mentaly, physically and emotionally prepared the best does win.

Depends how you define "best". A team of very skillful old guys may do very well for 5 or six rounds and then tire, and be passed by less skilled but more athletic youngsters. So is "best" the most skillful, or those with the best endurance? I know for sure that I make more mistakes in the later rounds of a competition when I'm tired.

Track and field has multiple events from 100m to marathon, and best at one distance doesn't mean best at any other.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 10, 2002, 5:19 PM
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In reply to:

then you are not training correctly. period -- end of story, and the team that wins because they are mentaly, physically and emotionally prepared the best does win.

But prepared for what? The 3 round competition or the 10 round competition? the team that's mentally, physically and emotionally prepared the best for one may not be best for the other.

Besides, how do you differentiate between team A that's physically the best, team B that's emotionally the best, and team C that's mentally the best; one team may not be best in all areas. When you "and" these attributes, how do you actually combine them and design a contest to ensure that the team with the "best" combination wins?


weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 10, 2002, 6:02 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

then you are not training correctly. period -- end of story, and the team that wins because they are mentaly, physically and emotionally prepared the best does win.

But prepared for what? The 3 round competition or the 10 round competition? the team that's mentally, physically and emotionally prepared the best for one may not be best for the other.

Besides, how do you differentiate between team A that's physically the best, team B that's emotionally the best, and team C that's mentally the best; one team may not be best in all areas. When you "and" these attributes, how do you actually combine them and design a contest to ensure that the team with the "best" combination wins?

prepared for the competition as the rules are written for that particular event. you train for the event you are going to compete in, if you are not strong in any of those areas it will come out in the end. If you are not strong in those three areas I mentioned you will not win a FS competition against others who are. FS is a combination of everything, mental, physical and emotional -- each affect the other -- nervous? it will affect you physically (get stiff), negative thoughts? -- will affect you physically as well. tired -- may make you mentally weaker.... fail in any of the areas and you will not win that competition.


arlo  (D License)

Oct 10, 2002, 6:13 PM
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In reply to:
But prepared for what?

...prepared to win..period.

(of course, having fun while you do it)

regardless of a 1 round meet, 8 round meet 10 round meet or 15 round meet...it's your job as a team member to be switched on and stay switched on whether your fatigued, brain-dead, whatever.
Of course, this is only applicable if you are competing to win.

arloSly
edited to remove double negative...DOH!Shocked


(This post was edited by arlo on Oct 10, 2002, 6:38 PM)


mjasantos  (D 21310)

Oct 11, 2002, 1:49 AM
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Hi,

Because opinions posted here have drifted slightly from what I'd like to see posted, here I am again...

I'm not defending if FS should be or not an Olympic event... actually, I don't believe it will be (at least in my skydiver life), and I also don't care much about it...

When I started skydiving, this Olympic possibility wasn't even in the horizon, but that wasn't the reason why I chose this sport... and as myself, I know that the 100% current and past skydivers, didn't choose to skydive because it could be Olympic or not...

I don't see a problem on the IPC tries to have some Parachuting events in the Olympics...

Where I see the problem is to change what exists now, making it a completely different thing, just to have the possibility to be considered for the Olympics...

My first intention when posting this thread here, was to know if current Formation Skydiving competitors, regarding the FAI IPC attempts to make Parachuting an Olympic Sport, would prefer that IPC changes Formation Skydiving competition rules as they are now (towards an "Olympic Format" similar to the one I previously described) or, instead, creates a "new Olympic Format"?

Looking at the different events, when we talk about Parachuting, we have Accuracy, Style, Formation Skydiving, CRW (several), Swoop, Skysurfing, Freefly, Freestyle, etc.. Anyway, most of us, elect only one of these as our favorite...

My opinion and what I defend, is that why should FS, to be admitted in the Olympics, be changed on its main aspects... if this happens, the worst it can happens is that, in 2012, Formation Skydiving, as it will be then, won't happen as an Olympic event but, due to the changes, would be a completely different sport event from the one we know and train today!

If FS to be Olympic has to be changed that much, when the change is complete it won't be the very same FS we have now!

Being such, why not to create from rooth a FS Olympic format, with the required attributes?

If the IPC intention on the run for the Olympics persists, why not to create this "so called" FS Olympic Format, that would be a new and separate event (keeping Standard FS main configuration as it is).

Then those who would like to be Olympic Athletes, would be able to train that format... those who don't, would continue to train the standard FS...

Of course that if standard format keeps the 10 round format, teams who elect this to train, would prepare themselves for 10 rounds competitions... those who elect olympic format (with for example 4 or 5 rounds), would prepare themselves for 5 rounds competitions... but we have to admit that these are completely competition formats...

The same when I talked about the working time... now we have 35" in 4-way, but there were already competitions where the olympic (faster) format was applied with 15-20" working time...

And instead of repeating the same page over and over within the 35" working time, the "new" format considered just to take the time for one page, where time started to count when teams have the 1st formation done (a star)...

You have to agree that this "short" format that has been tested in some competitions by some of the world-top teams, has nothing to do with current FS (with a dive pool that you almost exhaust in competition, although there are trilions of combinations in the way that pool can show up in the competition draw)...

Those trilions of combinations is what makes FS attractive for those who practice it... making competition more demanding because very rarely you get a page exactly identical to the ones you have been training... very few sports have this feature, but we like the challenge!

Why change it?

What do you think about this?

Blue Skies! Cool
------------------------------


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Oct 11, 2002, 6:13 AM
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I don't like the idea of creating an "Olympic Format" for skydiving because by doing so it would become the de facto standard for all skydiving.

Why? Because nobody wants to train for two different styles.

Whats' great about the rules as they stand now is that, everybody is playing by the same basic rules and there is a logical progression from weekend teams and the pros. If the pros start training to a different set of rules, then either nobody in the lower ranks will have a whole lot of interest in it or the new rules will become the new standard for everybody.

I personally don't like the idea of skydiving being a 10 or 15 second event.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 11, 2002, 9:14 AM
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In reply to:

But prepared for what? The 3 round competition or the 10 round
competition? the team that's mentally, physically and emotionally prepared
the best for one may not be best for the other.
=======================================================

prepared for the competition as the rules are written for that particular
event. you train for the event you are going to compete in, if you are not
strong in any of those areas it will come out in the end.

Absolutely - and it doesn't matter how many rounds. You just prepare for whatever it is, and by definition the winning team is the "best".


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 11, 2002, 9:17 AM
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In reply to:

I personally don't like the idea of skydiving being a 10 or 15 second event.

There's one already.
10-way!


weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 11, 2002, 11:41 AM
Post #23 of 33 (4208 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

But prepared for what? The 3 round competition or the 10 round
competition? the team that's mentally, physically and emotionally prepared
the best for one may not be best for the other.
=======================================================

prepared for the competition as the rules are written for that particular
event. you train for the event you are going to compete in, if you are not
strong in any of those areas it will come out in the end.

Absolutely - and it doesn't matter how many rounds. You just prepare for whatever it is, and by definition the winning team is the "best".

but to determine the "best" you need to exhaust the whole dive pool (4& 8 way) that lends itself to a 10 round meet. so there you have it.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 11, 2002, 1:03 PM
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In reply to:


Absolutely - and it doesn't matter how many rounds. You just prepare for whatever it
is, and by definition the winning team is the "best".



but to determine the "best" you need to exhaust the whole dive pool (4& 8 way) that
lends itself to a 10 round meet. so there you have it.

But the dive pool itself is arbitrary both in type and number of formations and blocks. It changes from year to year. What is so special about exhausting an arbitrary sized dive pool?

If they went to 3 rounds, the dive pool could be smaller and they could still exhaust it. Your argument is not logical.


weid14  (D 20292)

Oct 11, 2002, 2:14 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:


Absolutely - and it doesn't matter how many rounds. You just prepare for whatever it
is, and by definition the winning team is the "best".



but to determine the "best" you need to exhaust the whole dive pool (4& 8 way) that
lends itself to a 10 round meet. so there you have it.

But the dive pool itself is arbitrary both in type and number of formations and blocks. It changes from year to year. What is so special about exhausting an arbitrary sized dive pool?

If they went to 3 rounds, the dive pool could be smaller and they could still exhaust it. Your argument is not logical.

<sigh> and neither are yours, but that's the way it goes I guess.


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