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Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid

 

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peek  (D 8884)

Jul 31, 2006, 8:48 AM
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Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid Can't Post

Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid, and harms our sport.

I'm putting this in General Skydiving for a reason, and that is to educate skydivers who may not know this important fact.

Sunday morning I woke up early at the WFFC and found friends getting ready for a balloon jump. When the ballons were almost inflated some of the jumpers were calling to a guy over on the ramp who was packing a BASE rig and who was not ready.

It turns out he missed the load, which is the only good thing that I can say about this incident.

A BASE rig ???

I walked over and asked him why he planned to do that, and he said something to the effect of "getting his blood pumping" or something like that.

I asked if he had informed the balloon pilot that what he was attempting to do was illegal and he said that the pilot "seemed to be OK with it". (Somehow I doubt that.)

I asked to never again consider doing something like that. He never did acknowledge his stupidity, but I could tell he knew better.

As I was walking away in disgust I saw Dixie Norton from the FAA who frequents the Convention. I told her, "Dixie, I have a little job for you!" She gave me a slightly suspicious smile, wondering what on earth could be going on that early.

I told her about the guy and she went over and admonished him for a few minutes. She said he didn't really look up at her. (No surprise there). Maybe he didn't want to see at the "FAA" on her shirt.

She said that he told her that what he planned to do was safer than swooping the pond!

Now, the point I want to make to skydivers is that if you see someone planning to jump a BASE rig from a balloon you need to do something! No one on that load did. Is it because they didn't know better, or because they didn't care?

For some reason people seem to think of ballons as one of the BASE objects, but I assure you they are not! They are an aircraft and must be treated like one.


The other point I would like to make, (in particular to the WFFC bashers), is that if a person wants to lie and cheat enough, they can probably get away with something like that at the WFFC (and perhaps other events), because there aren't enough people to notice everything that goes on.

This is our sport, folks. We need to educate ourselves and keep each other from doing stupid things.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 31, 2006, 8:58 AM
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Re: [peek] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Gary,

Some will tell you to get your nose out of thier business, I will tell Good Job.

We as a group (at least in the US) have pledged to be self policing. We can do a better job of it.

It may be hard to be right. But in all cases it is better to be right than dead.

Mr. Peek, I salute you for your efforts in safety and education.


outrager

Jul 31, 2006, 9:03 AM
Post #3 of 281 (6346 views)
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Re: [peek] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As I was walking away in disgust I saw Dixie Norton from the FAA who frequents the Convention. I told her, "Dixie, I have a little job for you!"

No personal attacks. Your one warning.


(This post was edited by billvon on Jul 31, 2006, 9:29 AM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 31, 2006, 9:20 AM
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Re: [outrager] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe he should.

Being safety concious is nothing to be scoffed at.

You have heard the saying invovling old and bold?

He did the Hard Right thing, weather you agree or not.


outrager

Jul 31, 2006, 9:33 AM
Post #5 of 281 (6235 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Being safety concious is nothing to be scoffed at.

This has nothing to do with safety. BASE gear is incredibly safe, especially in lower-altitude baloon-jumping environment. This is about breaking the letter of law, and that matter is strictly between a jumper and a pilot. Calling FAA on a jumper is the worst sin one can commit, and in many places there will be serious consequences for such a caller.

bsbd!

Yuri.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 31, 2006, 9:44 AM
Post #6 of 281 (6205 views)
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Re: [outrager] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously?

A person who followed the law is to be shunned?

I do not doubt base gears safety (I only have 1 BASE jump from a Bridge). It may not be unsafe to jump a base rig from a Balloon, until it mals. It is not legal though and is it worth causing aPilot to lose his/her Certificate, your money and time in court to do some thing "cool"?

Mr. Peek did nothing wrong legally or morally. Although not every one will agree.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 31, 2006, 9:48 AM
Post #7 of 281 (6193 views)
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Re: [peek] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Gary,

seriously, why did you point out that particular issue to the FAA rep?

I mean, you've been involved in the WFFC to know that at many time, by many people, many rules have been broken at that boogie through the years. And one has to be very selectively blind not to see it.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 31, 2006, 9:59 AM
Post #8 of 281 (6159 views)
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Re: [Remster] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
seriously, why did you point out that particular issue to the FAA rep?

What can the FAA do to the jumper? Take away a FAA license that the jumper doesn't have? The FAA could get the balloon pilot in serious trouble, though. That would definately accomplish the goal of screwing someone contacted for a professional service that may not understand the differences between a BASE rig and a sport parachute rig. Would the jumper care about the balloon pilot? Of course not, obviously the jumper doesn't care already by wanting to do what he wanted to do.

That would have been a better battle for the S&TA to fight. Grounding the jumper or removing the jumper from the boogie.

So basiclly the point of this post is to brag about how you pulled in the FAA to solve a problem that is better suited to be taken care of by the DZ's (or in this case) boogie's staff and to name drop a FAA officials name.

I firmly believe that safety is paramount to the survival of our sport (not just our participants), but there are ways to accomplish that without getting a pilot in trouble with the FAA. That's sort of like reporting a DZ to the FAA for punching clouds. The pilot will get screwed, not the DZ.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Jul 31, 2006, 10:00 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jul 31, 2006, 9:59 AM
Post #9 of 281 (6161 views)
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Re: [Remster] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously I wasn't there, but here's my take;

~FAA law says "Don't use this gear." Fine.
~Experienced skydiver tells balloon jumper, "This gear is illegal to use, don't put the pilot of the balloon in jeopardy of losing his license if you jump it."

So far so good....
Were it me, the BASE jumper's response would have dictated my next move. If he was "Ahhh...f' you, man...I'll do what I want, when I want, with whom I want..." I'd probably talk to an authority whether it's the WFFC organizers or the FAA, whomever happens to be handy.
If the BASE jumper's response was "Ahh...man..I didn't realize it, sorry dude, I'm staying back..." then my own feeling is that nothing more needs to be said.
No matter what tho...I'm sure the FAA would love to control as much of our sport as they can, so not sure I'd ever want to talk to them about anything involving skydiving, but that's just my .02φ But since BASE jumping isn't controlled by the FAA and skydiving is...dunno that I'd wanna drag em' in to it regardless.
So, is Peek being unfairly judged or maybe he judged unfairly?


(This post was edited by DSE on Jul 31, 2006, 2:15 PM)


flyboyne  (D 29401)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:01 AM
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Re: [peek] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe a better approach would of been to warn the balloon pilot about the jumpers intentions and the fact that there is an FAA rep present. Let the pilot be the one to make the call. After all, the baloon pilot would be the one to receive the worst punishment since the only thing the FAA can do to a jumper without any FAA certificates is to issue a civil fine.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:02 AM
Post #11 of 281 (6146 views)
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Re: [outrager] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This has nothing to do with safety

It has everything to do with safety. duh!

Quote:
Calling FAA on a jumper is the worst sin one can commit,

No, screwing up skydiving for the rest of us when some dumbass goes in under a base rig from 4000 ft from a balloon would be worse.

Quote:
and in many places there will be serious consequences for such a caller.

Damn...that sounds like a threat. My money is on Peek.

j


hexadecimal

Jul 31, 2006, 10:02 AM
Post #12 of 281 (6144 views)
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Re: [peek] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy


(This post was edited by hexadecimal on Jul 31, 2006, 10:03 AM)


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:09 AM
Post #13 of 281 (6116 views)
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Re: [flyboyne] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe a better approach would of been to warn the balloon pilot about the jumpers intentions and the fact that there is an FAA rep present.

The balloon was inflated and ready to take off by the time I found out he had a BASE rig. If it had not been the last day of the Convention I would have made it a point to find the pilot later and educate him.


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:14 AM
Post #14 of 281 (6099 views)
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Re: [Remster] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Gary, eriously, why did you point out that particular issue to the FAA rep?

Because there was no violation. He didn't make the load. The FAA cannot pursue an attempt to violate a regulation.

I just wanted him to hear from as many people as possible why that was a bad idea. It was 5:45 AM I believe, and there weren't too many choices for others to help me admonish him.

One FAA rep is probably equal to a number of skydivers in this respect I would think.


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:23 AM
Post #15 of 281 (6076 views)
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Re: [outrager] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Calling FAA on a jumper is the worst sin one can commit, and in many places there will be serious consequences for such a caller.

Yuri, easy dude! The guy isn't in trouble.

FAA reps at the WFFC are some of the most open minded people I have met, and very knowledgable about skydiving, not just in the letter of the law.

I don't even think they would take action against a jumper or balloon pilot if such a jump actually happened, unless it was repeated or they saw an attempt at deceit of the FAA.


wzettler

Jul 31, 2006, 10:28 AM
Post #16 of 281 (6057 views)
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Re: [peek] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Please list your experience with BASE jumping and modern BASE gear so we can get a better feel of your expertise.

You didn't say exactly what it was that you had a problem with. BASE rig out of an aircraft, BASE rig is unsafe out of an aircraft or BASE rig is just unsafe? You did say it was not just illegal but stupid in the title of the thread. Please explain your opinion further as to why.

Is this just left over BASE prejudice from the 80s from an old guy?


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:32 AM
Post #17 of 281 (6049 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That would have been a better battle for the S&TA to fight.

Well, sometimes timely action can make a point rather well, so I just went for it. The S&TA will back me up of course, since we think very much alike in this respect.

In reply to:
Grounding the jumper or removing the jumper from the boogie.

I would much rather use peer pressure and education than punitive measures, but that's just me.

In reply to:
So basicly the point of this post is to ...

...educate skydivers, since 2 balloon loads of skydivers missed the BASE rig.

In reply to:
..there are ways to accomplish that without getting a pilot in trouble with the FAA.

The jump did not occur. Neither the pilot nor jumper were at risk.


outrager

Jul 31, 2006, 10:33 AM
Post #18 of 281 (6055 views)
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Re: [peek] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yuri, easy dude! The guy isn't in trouble.

That's a relief Crazy Just don't do it again!

If the pilot "seemed to be ok with it", and i know some who are Angelic this is a private matter between two consenting adults. You really had no business getting involved.

bsbd!

Yuri.


Mac  (C 101464)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:41 AM
Post #19 of 281 (6006 views)
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Re: [peek] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumping Balloons with a BASE rig is not stupid

Jumping Balloons with a BASE rig in a skydiving environment is stupid


Thanatos340  (B 27588)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:44 AM
Post #20 of 281 (5990 views)
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Re: [outrager] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
this is a private matter between two consenting adults.

I would agree with this if the Pilot actually knew he would be braking the law by allowing someone to jump a base rig from his Balloon.

It does not appear that this was the case.

It appears that The jumpers was confronted about doing something illegal and putting the pilot in danger of getting in trouble. From what was posted, The jumper didnt seem to care, So gary had someone else (with a little more authority) explain it to him.

Hey if the Pilot knows it is against the law and still agrees to it.. More power to him. But someone trying to slip one past the pilot to get thier jollies is just not cool if thier action could get that pilot in trouble.


460

Jul 31, 2006, 10:47 AM
Post #21 of 281 (5975 views)
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Re: [outrager] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Funny thing. I jumped my BASE rig from a balloon from 1000 feet. The balloon was not tethered and the pilot was an FAA inspector! Apparently "peek" knows very little about BASE gear. Unimpressed It's always funny when skydivers act like whuffos regarding BASE.

What if the jumper was using a 2 parachute system designed for BASE but was not TSO'd? For example, the Sorcerer rig, which can deploy a reserve chute in 25 feet if packed slider down. Or a conventional BASE rig with a D-ring and a belly mounted tersh parachute? Would that have been more acceptable? In reality, the BASE system is incredible safe and will only lead to better gear throughout all of parachuting, including reserves. The new BASE gear improvements are really quite good, including the WLO toggle system and the vented pilot chutes.


(This post was edited by 460 on Jul 31, 2006, 11:46 AM)


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:54 AM
Post #22 of 281 (5944 views)
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Re: [wzettler] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please list your experience with BASE jumping...

One jump from the NRG bridge 1990 with a skydiving rig, mesh slider.

In reply to:
...and modern BASE gear....

Not too much. I know it can be made to be very reliable.

In reply to:
You didn't say exactly what it was that you had a problem with. BASE rig out of an aircraft?

That one.

In reply to:
You did say it was not just illegal but stupid in the title of the thread.

If you jump off a fixed object you have a fixed altitude to work with. So you work with what you have.

But if you jump from aircraft you can usually get enough altitude to make the jump quite a bit safer utilizing a second parachute.

At the risk of applying a personal attack to a number of jumpers, I would have to say that choosing a low altitude and one parachute from an aircraft would be stupid.

I'm guessing a large number of people would feel the same way.


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 31, 2006, 10:56 AM
Post #23 of 281 (5932 views)
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Re: [Mac] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jumping Balloons with a BASE rig is not stupid

Jumping Balloons with a BASE rig in a skydiving environment is stupid

Well put.


Pendragon  (D 104102)

Jul 31, 2006, 11:00 AM
Post #24 of 281 (5905 views)
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Re: [peek] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Now, the point I want to make to skydivers is that if you see someone planning to jump a BASE rig from a balloon you need to do something!

Why?

Quote:
Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid, and harms our sport.

Illegal? Yes. Dangerous/stupid? Depends on whether the person packing the rig did a good job, and pull height. Who's problem is that? Balloon pilot and the jumper.

Did it have anything to do with you? I suppose if the FAA reps knew and the balloon pilot got grounded, then yes... but then, how would they know?

Do you honestly believe that someone is going to go in just because they're using a BASE rig? One that is packed more critically than a main, and is of a type much less prone to malfunction than a lot of 9-cell canopies experienced jumpers use? Oh, and the guy using it just maybe knows how to do a still air exit?

I'm not saying that, technically, you are correct. However, that needs to be balanced against making a mountain out of a molehill - ie making a situation worse by getting involved.

A BASE jumper jumping from a balloon with a BASE rig? I think there are a multitude of other things WAY more important to be worrying about at WFFC.

Quote:
She said that he told her that what he planned to do was safer than swooping the pond!

Statistically, he's probably right.

Quote:
For some reason people seem to think of ballons as one of the BASE objects, but I assure you they are not! They are an aircraft and must be treated like one.

You may be right. Is it your judgement call or the balloon pilot's?

Quote:
This is our sport, folks. We need to educate ourselves and keep each other from doing stupid things.

I'd agree with you there. So, why don't you get the guys who:

- Land Mr Bill's
- Spiral through the stacks
- Land downwind in a busy area
- Jump out wiithout taking their seatbelt off
- Open the aircraft emergency exit door up by the pilot

All of the above I have seen, or have read about, happening at big boogies. They all out-rank the attempted BASE-jump-from-a-balloon-must-be-really-bad incident.


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 31, 2006, 11:01 AM
Post #25 of 281 (5895 views)
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Re: [460] Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Funny thing. I jumped my BASE rig from a balloon from 1000 feet. The balloon was not tethered and the pilot was an FAA inspector!

That's not surprising. Exceptions happen all the time.

In reply to:
Apparently "peek" knows very little about BASE gear.

Never said I did. Continue reading the thread for more detail on that.


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