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horshoe mal on a reserve

 

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caspar  (A 105169)

Jun 15, 2006, 12:27 PM
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horshoe mal on a reserve Can't Post

after reading this : http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=121557#121557

i was wondering. how the hell can you get a horshoe mal on your reserve if the bridle is under the pilot chute?? i read it twice but i guess im still being dumb and misread the post - still at work and its been a very long day.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jun 15, 2006, 12:34 PM
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Re: [caspar] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

A horeshoe could be caused on deployment of the reserve if the reserve PC/bridle wraps around your foot or something.

Dave


bch7773  (C License)

Jun 15, 2006, 12:38 PM
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Re: [caspar] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

if you are tumbling badly when reserve PC comes out, its quite possible the PC will wrap around an arm, leg, neck etc.


kenneth21441  (B License)

Jun 15, 2006, 2:43 PM
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Re: [caspar] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

My understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something.


What scares me is the round parachutes (reserves) that do not have a free bag and I could see these going into a horse shoe. thank god for the squares.


twibbles  (C 104292)

Jun 15, 2006, 4:03 PM
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Re: [kenneth21441] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something.

Unless you're unlucky enough to have a reserve baglock, but you'll have to be very unlucky.

edited to add: then again, bill booth did say in that link above that the bridle does not produce enough drag to extract the reserve.

Eugene


(This post was edited by twibbles on Jun 15, 2006, 4:07 PM)


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jun 15, 2006, 4:53 PM
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Re: [kenneth21441] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

Not all round parachutes have attached pilot chutes. I service two strong Aerosport canopies in seat rigs that are deployed with a free sleeve. Comes loose on deployment.


riggermick  (D 17071)

Jun 15, 2006, 5:58 PM
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Re: [twibbles] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something.

Unless you're unlucky enough to have a reserve baglock, but you'll have to be very unlucky.

edited to add: then again, bill booth did say in that link above that the bridle does not produce enough drag to extract the reserve.

Eugene





AND THAT'S WHY I DEVELOPED THE "CATAPULT"!!!!!! A horseshoe'd bridle almost cost me my life!!! Shame all of the nay-sayers helped NOT to bring it in wide spread acceptence, BTW it hasn't killed any one and has three or four documented saves. All of the scenarios "they" put forward never came to pass, it could have saved four or five indivuals had it been accepted on a wider basis, but that's how it goes when superstition overcomes the laws of physics!

I offered a solution and the "old guard" rejected it as a "death trap", I guess that's the downside of competition when you are the "little guy". JUDGE FOR YOUR SELF .I wouldn't jump without one neither would I let my friends or loved ones also. That is how strongly I believe in it. Period!!

Anyone?

Mick.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 15, 2006, 6:57 PM
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Re: [riggermick] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
My understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something.

Unless you're unlucky enough to have a reserve baglock, but you'll have to be very unlucky.

edited to add: then again, bill booth did say in that link above that the bridle does not produce enough drag to extract the reserve.

Eugene





AND THAT'S WHY I DEVELOPED THE "CATAPULT"!!!!!! A horseshoe'd bridle almost cost me my life!!! Shame all of the nay-sayers helped NOT to bring it in wide spread acceptence, BTW it hasn't killed any one and has three or four documented saves. All of the scenarios "they" put forward never came to pass, it could have saved four or five indivuals had it been accepted on a wider basis, but that's how it goes when superstition overcomes the laws of physics!

I offered a solution and the "old guard" rejected it as a "death trap", I guess that's the downside of competition when you are the "little guy". JUDGE FOR YOUR SELF .I wouldn't jump without one neither would I let my friends or loved ones also. That is how strongly I believe in it. Period!!

Anyone?

Mick.

I love ya man, and I'd happily put one on my gear if I could.

Smile


riggermick  (D 17071)

Jun 15, 2006, 9:13 PM
Post #9 of 128 (3353 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
My understanding and from all the Army viedos that Ive seen was the free bag if and when it does get caught will still deploy the reserve. That is also why the bridle can deploy the reserve even if the reserve PC is caught on something.

Unless you're unlucky enough to have a reserve baglock, but you'll have to be very unlucky.

edited to add: then again, bill booth did say in that link above that the bridle does not produce enough drag to extract the reserve.

Eugene





AND THAT'S WHY I DEVELOPED THE "CATAPULT"!!!!!! A horseshoe'd bridle almost cost me my life!!! Shame all of the nay-sayers helped NOT to bring it in wide spread acceptence, BTW it hasn't killed any one and has three or four documented saves. All of the scenarios "they" put forward never came to pass, it could have saved four or five indivuals had it been accepted on a wider basis, but that's how it goes when superstition overcomes the laws of physics!

I offered a solution and the "old guard" rejected it as a "death trap", I guess that's the downside of competition when you are the "little guy". JUDGE FOR YOUR SELF .I wouldn't jump without one neither would I let my friends or loved ones also. That is how strongly I believe in it. Period!!

Anyone?

Mick.

I love ya man, and I'd happily put one on my gear if I could.

Smile


Sure Dat!!!!

MickCool


aironscott

Jun 15, 2006, 9:58 PM
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Re: [riggermick] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around you.
Get over it. The catapult was a great idea that wasn't thought through very well. Sorry for the harshness but I put that cat right up there with the old Racer RSL and some of the other all time bad ideas.
Otherwise the Reflex isn't a bad rig. In fact they make me good money because a bunch of riggers out there shy away from packing them.

Aaron


caspar  (A 105169)

Jun 16, 2006, 5:15 AM
Post #11 of 128 (3253 views)
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Re: [riggermick] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

what is "the catapult"?

and from what i understand the best thing out there to prevent you tumbling through your reserve is the skyhook because it opens your reserve so fast that there is less time for you to tumble through it.


rigger_john  (C 101098)

Jun 16, 2006, 6:21 AM
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Re: [aironscott] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around you.

I've seen a lot of people get off spinning mals over the years and I can't remember anybody go anywhere apart from away from the mal, normaly very very fast, I realy don't see where this idea about getting caught up in your reserve deployment comes from.

I think the catapult is a good soloution to a problem, although a quite rare one. I'm not saying it doesn't have problems but all the arguments I hear against it seem to ignore the laws of physics.

Now we sortted that Next.......

why RSL should be mandatory CoolCoolCool


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 16, 2006, 8:16 AM
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Re: [caspar] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
what is "the catapult"?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A catapult is an extra - un sprung - pilot chute sewn to the reserve bridle 1/3 of the way up. Catapults are found on Reflex skydiving containers (formerly made by Fliteline) and Mach III Alpha military freefall rigs (made by FXC/Guardian).

Catapults are the functional replacement for wide reserve bridles. Even Bill Booth admits that wide bridles no longer create enough drag to lift a reserve freebag off your back.

Catapults are supposed to save you if your sprung reserve pilot chute malfunctions. They actually saved a couple of skydivers, when a brain-death, red-neck rigger miss-read the manual, ignoring common sense and industry-wide practices when packing Reflex pilot chutes.
Hah!
Did I slander Reflex-detractors harshly enough?


riggermick  (D 17071)

Jun 16, 2006, 8:55 AM
Post #14 of 128 (3181 views)
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Re: [aironscott] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around


Yeah That old arguement, popular with the naysayers, one slight problem though, it assumes that a body is in a steady state and not moving. As we all know in free fall nothing is static, even unconcious jumpers are moving all over the place. We tried to duplicate this scenario but those pesky laws of physics kept getting in the way and wouldn't let happen.

It's a shame you bought in to the propaganda perpitrated
by people with agendas one of which is representing for rival manufacturers. Once it (negative propaganda) starts newer and more impressionable people buy in to it with out question and it becomes gospel even though it's BS. Some believe it through ignorance, some don't understand physics, most no nothing about equipment design and as we all know skydivers love to give their opinion on everything, weather it's right or not.

Mick.


caspar  (A 105169)

Jun 16, 2006, 12:27 PM
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Re: [riggermick] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

ok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues?

well something along those lines anyway. most likely a dumb idea but "could" this work?

edit to add: if it works you gotta let me name it!


(This post was edited by caspar on Jun 16, 2006, 12:32 PM)


justinb138  (B 28762)

Jun 16, 2006, 12:30 PM
Post #16 of 128 (3125 views)
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Re: [caspar] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues?

It's been a while since I've seen one, but I believe that Talon's have pockets on the bridle. I doubt there is enough drag from them to pull a reserve bag out of the container and get the canopy out though.


caspar  (A 105169)

Jun 16, 2006, 12:38 PM
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Re: [justinb138] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

why not just make the pockets larger then or cover more or the bridle? i guess this could affect the deployment if the PC is pulling on the reserve and so is the bridle. would this make a normal deployment too fast (if there is such a thing)?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jun 16, 2006, 12:55 PM
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Re: [caspar] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi casper,

Quote:
what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle

If I remember correctly, the EOS was the first rig to have the 'assistor pockets' on the bridle; then Talon copied the idea. I have no idea how well they worked; I've never seen a deployment of the system.

Since the Catapult attaches directly to the bridle (no additional bridle of its own) I do not see any downside to it (well, maybe a slight additional bulk). Just my worthless $0.02.

Jerry


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jun 16, 2006, 2:01 PM
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Re: [aironscott] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

aironscott
In reply to:
Oh yeah! What a great idea the Crapapult was. One pilot chute on one side of you and the other wrapped around you on the other side cuz you cutaway from a spinner and tumbled through reserve deployment. And now you got nothing to extract the freebag and reserve canopy cuz its all wrapped around you.

First off, I am not a fan of the Catapult. But what you have described is pure BS. If it would happen, as you describe it, with a Catapult it would happen with any rig.

Have you ever seen this happen or even heard of it happening? I dont think so. Have you done any testing to validate your theory? Again I dont think so.


Riggermick
In reply to:
Once it (negative propaganda) starts newer and more impressionable people buy in to it with out question and it becomes gospel even though it's BS.

Its amazing how much that is considered "fact" about parachuting gear started out like that. Joe Blow said it so it must be fact. Trouble is Joe Blow often does not know his ass from a hot rock


KindredSpirit  (Student)

Jun 16, 2006, 5:28 PM
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote:
If I remember correctly, the EOS was the first rig to have the 'assistor pockets' on the bridle; then Talon copied the idea. I have no idea how well they worked; I've never seen a deployment of the system.

I have a spare freebag for my Talon so I snapped a pic. Are the grey things the 'assistor pockets' you are talking about?


(This post was edited by KindredSpirit on Jun 16, 2006, 5:30 PM)
Attachments: Talon freebag.jpg (35.9 KB)


koppel  (F License)

Jun 16, 2006, 6:01 PM
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Re: [KindredSpirit] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

They would be inded what he is describing. Interesting thought here though....this thread is based on a horseshoe on the reserve. These 'assistor' pockets are only functional (if at all) uni-directionally. In the event of a horseshoe these 'assistor' pockets become immediately disfunctional due to the mouth know pointing upwards, away from the relative wind. If they seriously thought that there was any benifit from them, other than to LOOK like they are doing something to solve a problem, surely they would have them facing both directions. What next - Airbags?TongueCrazy


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jun 16, 2006, 8:16 PM
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Re: [koppel] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

There are several of the pockets and they run the length of the bridle. In a horseshoe situation some of them will still point the right way.Tongue


riggermick  (D 17071)

Jun 17, 2006, 12:20 AM
Post #23 of 128 (3002 views)
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Re: [caspar] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ok maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the reserve bridle had pockets on it? small material pockets placed all along the reserve bridle. these would catch the air, and create a higher pull force and not cause any extra entanglement issues?

well something along those lines anyway. most likely a dumb idea but "could" this work?

edit to add: if it works you gotta let me name it!



I think all of the later posters gave you the answer you were looking for, but hey at least you were THINKING!! Maybe you have the desire and potential to become a rigger and later down the road a designer/ manufacturer! That's how EVERYONE ELSE who designs and builds skydiving stuff got their start.

Question conventional wisdom at all oppertunities and develop an aniyltical mind, that is how it is done. No one is born with the specfic skills to do this type of work, they just find it facinating and have a true pure love of being creative.

If it feels like a "fit" for you then run with it, I did as so many others before and after me have done. This is the true engine of evoloution in any endevour. That's where ALL the new innovations come from. It's truly exiteing, no shit!!!


Mick.


koppel  (F License)

Jun 17, 2006, 2:33 AM
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Re: [mjosparky] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

D'oh! Blush

Engage Brain - Think - Type


caspar  (A 105169)

Jun 17, 2006, 4:06 AM
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Re: [riggermick] horshoe mal on a reserve [In reply to] Can't Post

cheers!

ok here is my idea.

1) "nose" of cell to catch the air
2) ZP material to catch the air sewed ontop of reserve bridle
3) 2nd cell, pointed the other way so drag can be induced no matter the position of bridle
4) seem to split the cells.
5)reserve bridle

my 1st idea is to sew the opposite facing cells ontop of eachother so the end of the cell is sewed ontop of the "nose" of the other. the 1st way mentioned is easier to draw to explain though Tongue

i just figured that if you had these on the whole of the bridle (both sides) thats got to be the same amount of surface area as a pilot chute.

how do you think this would change a normal reserve deployment?


edit to add: credit to my friend jack for the diagonal seem idea. we were chatting about it and drawing it this morning whilst very hungover.


(This post was edited by caspar on Jun 17, 2006, 5:04 AM)
Attachments: super bridle.GIF (5.53 KB)


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