Jun 7, 2006, 7:33 PM
Post #1 of 32
Risk it or not....
This sunday I'll be jumping in Deland. I just bought a container/main/and reserve. I haven't downsized to the main I bought yet, but I can take the 170 out and put a 190 in it, which is what I am jumping currently. There is no cypress in the rig I bought yet (will buy one, just haven't found a used one yet).
So I can either pay 80 bucks at deland to rent their gear which includes a cypress... or I can pay like 15 bucks and demo a 190 canopy and put it in my own container, but have no cypress. Should I risk not having a cypress?? What would you do?
For now, you have to do the risk analysis. If you search back, you'll see many contentious threads on this and what it means in terms of good or bad gear dependency. I think you can justify either decision fine.
As for jumping with or without one, that's a personal decision that you have to make. Prepare yourself for "safety device dependant" lectures from here on out...
That's what I was thinking.
You know, there's exactly NOTHING that would give you a 100% of the time reliability for survival. Even though your AAD may fire correctly, your reserve could malfunction. Or if you survive due to your AAD you might be very severly injured on landing.
Personally, the only time I won't jump when an AAD isn't involved is on a tandem (its required to have them in a tandem rig) and if its one of my coach students (its required to have in their rig as well). Infact, as we speak my Cypres is out awaiting some batteries. Forgot to order some and I'm not going to stop jumping due to it. Next week (I think) I'll have everything back in order.
If someone will or won't jump with or without an AAD is their own personal decision. Depending blindly on a safety device is something that sends a red flag up about a jumper.
I jumped for nearly 18 years without an AAD after graduating student status. It never bothered me at all since most "grown" jumpers back then would not have considered jumping an AAD as it was "not cool." Ultimately, it's a confidence issue. Either you are confident in your ability to skydive without one (they are not mandatory most places you know), or you are not. I am. I have two rigs with AAD's, but one without (my wingsuit rig)
I too use a rig without an AAD for my wingsuit. However there was a cypres save early this year where two wingsuits had a bit of a knock and one was out cold. Woke up in a field wondering what had just happened.
(not directed at you SM1) I think the whole argument about going too slow in a wingsuit for an AAD be of any use is nonsense. If your incapacitated then you wont be flying nice and stable in your suit you'll most likely be on your back in which case it could just save your life.
I guess I always think, "what if I hit the plane or butt heads with a jumper on the exit and i'm knocked out".... gosh I don't know what to do! I don't rely on it, but I like knowing it's there if the above happens that it could possibly save my life. Kinda like, I like knowing that there is an airbag in my car...even though I know it may not save me.
Don't get me wrong; I don't buy into the "too slow to activate a CYPRES" argument either. That's not why I don't have one in that rig. In actuality, that rig was supposed to be my pond swoop rig, but it had too much white in it and got really dirty in that role. As I only owned one CYPRES, and we are required to use one in our work rigs at the school I teach at, then that one ended up in my "other than wingsuit" rig. If I felt like spending another $1,200, I would have one in my wingsuit rig as well. As I have no "gear fear" though, I am not sweating not having one in that rig. That's just me.
Like the monkey said, it's really a question of confidence. If not wearing an opener will bug you to the point of dominating your experience then it's worth the money to rent the other rig so you have a good time; if not then you make your own decision. Changing the subject. I don't think a new DZ is the right place to downsize, not on the first day. The extra money to rent the 190 will be well spent to be under a familiar canopy on your first 2 or 3 jumps at Deland. after that you will be able to decide whether you are comfortable enough to try another new thing (smaller canopy). Talk to the staff. You have among the most experienced staffs in the world at your disposal and they all work for YOU.
I think the Deland gear is pretty decent, but at most DZs the risk involved with rentals probably outweighs not having a Cypres in your own rig
What I would do would depend on how much longer I'll be jumping the 190. If I'm going to be jumping it a few days at Deland, I'd put the demo in my own container and leave it there while I jumped it. That'd save me multiple days of rentals, plus I'd be getting used to my own rig.
But if its just gonna be a day and I can't jump my own main, I'd probably just rent the entire rig + main I can jump rather than swap mains around in my own rig.
billvon (D 16479)
Jun 7, 2006, 10:50 PM
Post #13 of 32
I don't think a new DZ is the right place to downsize, not on the first day. The extra money to rent the 190 will be well spent to be under a familiar canopy on your first 2 or 3 jumps at Deland. after that you will be able to decide whether you are comfortable enough to try another new thing (smaller canopy). Talk to the staff. You have among the most experienced staffs in the world at your disposal and they all work for YOU.
Tonto (D 515)
Jun 8, 2006, 7:23 AM
Post #16 of 32
If you die cos you never pulled, then not having a cypres would have been a bad desision.
If you died in a plane crash, or from a freefall colision, or a canopy colision or a hard opening or a poor landing, or are killed by a swooper when walking off the DZ or one of the 1000's of other ways to die while skydiving, then not jumping with a cypres was probably the right desision.
If you don't die at all - then either desision is the right one.
Should I risk not having a cypress?? What would you do?
I would jump without the Cypres. My first rig had no AAD in it. My current rig has a nice shiny new Vigil. I prefer to have one, but if my choice is jump with no AAD or stay on the ground, I'm gonna jump
Its good to have one, but you shoudnt be dependant on a backup device, as many folks will tell you.
(This post was edited by ChrisL on Jun 8, 2006, 7:51 AM)
You have a license. That means you should be competent and capable of maintaining altitude awareness and emergency procedures. The AAD is a backup device meant to enhance, not replace, those procedures. At this point in your jumping you should be looking for the gear you're going to jumps for the next few hundred jumps or so. From your post, you have a rig and reserve. You need a main and, if you desire an AAD. Right now, IMHO, you should be jumping your own rig. Demo as many mains as you can safely get your hands on (and get specific coaching on those mains) and then buy one. Get as much info on the different AAD's out there and make another decision.
I have a cypres and RSL....my RSL broke/malfunctioned/didn't work as advertised when I had my cutaway. I didn't rely on it and here I am. I was and am confident in my abilities to skydive safely. Would I jump without an AAD, yes I would. Do I prefer to jump with an AAD, yes I do.
So if it was me in your situation, yes I would jump without the AAD and just rent the 190. But thats what I'd do if in that situation. Good luck with your decision.
"chad had taken out his AAD sometime before the accident because he was going to do a regular water jump (not wingsuit) into the blue hole...but that jump got weathered out."
That's from the thread about the fatality in belize. This man only planned on jumping without his CYPRES for a little while but when he needed it, it wasn't there. You only need it once to save your life.
Haven't ever owned an AAD in my 15 years of jumping, so obviously doesn't bother me to not have one. However, this is about YOU and what you feel comfortable doing. But remember that rental gear, depending on the sizes available, may not fit that well, and I assume not as good as your own container. For me, borrowing gear (with or without an AAD) would make me more unsettled since I wear a very small harness.
I don't think a Cypress is a bad thing..but I do think people should not feel dependent on them to the point they just can't jump comfortably without one, but that's only my opinion. This is about you and your jumps. If not having an AAD is going to bother you that much then you should probably rent the other gear.
Have fun this weekend!
DSE (D 29060)
Jun 8, 2006, 3:12 PM
Post #23 of 32
"If someone will or won't jump with or without an AAD is their own personal decision. Depending blindly on a safety device is something that sends a red flag up about a jumper. "
Almost the exact words of our DZO. I bought my first rig prior to being off student status. Rig didn't have an AAD in it. Jumped it for 35 jumps, as soon as I was off student. Not because I'm proud, but because I couldn't afford the grand for an AAD after buying rig, altimeter, and other odds/ends. Then on a not-planned trip to Canada where I ended up finding I could jump, I learned that in Edmonton, they won't allow you to jump without an AAD without a D license. So, very quickly bought a used one and had my DZO's master rigger install it. I had no idea that some DZO's adamantly require them. Kinda stupid to do so, because if one fails when it's required, and is part of a fatality or injury, or goes off when it shouldn't, then the DZ becomes legally liable, as they're part of the problem. I've been told that this is the reason the USPA backed off of requiring AADs a few years ago. Maybe someone has a different reason, but makes sense to me.
On the other side...you don't want to believe for a second that an AAD is going to save you. EP's are drilled into pretty much everyone every day at the local DZ, unless they have a C or D license. Mildly irritating to have the S&TA randomly walk up and say "Show me your malfunction motto" but it just might save your life one day.
With the price of fuel driving up not only the cost of jump tickets lately, but the cost (more than a jump itself for me) to even get TO the DZ in the firstlpace, ...just recently with my Cypres (1) hitting the end of it's 12 year service life, I had to decide whether to buy a new AAD, at the cost also of sacrificing jumping. I woud almost never "not jump", just because I did not have a Cypres (or AAD). If I did, I would have to reconsider the jump altogether itself regardless, in the very first place!
In other words, don't do anything more "dangerous" than what you are comfortable (and confident in your abilities) with, JUST BECAUSE you have a Cypres (AAD) on! To me, that is just not (or should not be) the decision factor in whether to jump or not. But that is just me. YMMV.
Kinda stupid to do so, because if one fails when it's required, and is part of a fatality or injury, or goes off when it shouldn't, then the DZ becomes legally liable, as they're part of the problem.
How do you figure?
For instance, Orange (VA) this season came out and voted (they are a "club") to be AAD MANDATORY DZ ...for ALL jumpers (even D licensed or not). That does not mean that they MAKEME jump there with an AAD. You can always just simply decide NOT to jump there! I just don't jump there at all anymore as a result, as of this season. That's all. What is the "REQUIREMENT" creating "legal liability" that you do? Sounds to me as if you CHOSE instead to buy that Cypres so you could jump there. Again, ...your CHOICE.
DZ's can, as individual businesses or clubs, decide on and impliment whatever rules they want. As a result, WE can decide for ourselves based upon them whether or not we jump there.
I'm afraid I don't understand where your LEGAL LIABILITY exposure remarks come from? Enlighten me.
In reply to:
I've been told that this is the reason the USPA backed off of requiring AADs a few years ago.
But USPA DOES require them for all non-license holders (students, and novices). So, what's the difference there?
I don't think I've ever heard either this position or "argument" before from the perspective of there being an actual liability FOR, or as a result of requiring an AAD.
Again, to me though, it is of absolutely no issue. If a dropzone tells me I HAVE TO wear an AAD to jump there, I just quite simply: Don't jump there. That's all. It's their business decision to accept that business loss. I still call that personal CHOICE though, don't you?
'splain this legal liability to me as a result that you think you see out of this though. I'm curious as to whether that's a valid "argument" for anything or not. I happen to like (or did) jumping at Orange. If I can gather some information to get them to possibly reverse their decision (rather than buy a Cypres just to be able to jump there), you'd make me a happy boy!
(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Jun 8, 2006, 4:14 PM)