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Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals?

 

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Poll: Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals?
I Unclip the lower laterals, then loosen all the way, then reclip. 49 / 41%
I Unclip the lower laterals and leave uncliped 71 / 59%
120 total votes
 
clint  (D 20790)

Jun 2, 2006, 6:18 PM
Post #1 of 39 (2431 views)
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Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? Can't Post

Just wondering what you all do after you open with the tandem student.

Also, how do you unclip the lower laterals of your student? I personally get the students to stand on my feet and push down, doing a calf raise and I also pick them up by the harness at the hip and then release on side at a time. About 1-2 seconds apart.

-


peek  (D 8884)

Jun 2, 2006, 6:42 PM
Post #2 of 39 (2403 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have found no advantage to disconnecting them.

Many years ago I used to, then quit because it was interfering with instruction.


tetra316  (D 26945)

Jun 2, 2006, 7:20 PM
Post #3 of 39 (2391 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

I disconnect them. ONLY after a controllablity check and BELOW my hard deck. So there's no way I'm cutting away with disconnected laterals. I think it makes landings easier..but then again that's what I was taught.


Kimblair13  (D 28140)

Jun 2, 2006, 7:35 PM
Post #4 of 39 (2387 views)
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Re: [tetra316] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
controllablity check

Hmmm....what is that? Tongue


deadwood  (D 9930)

Jun 2, 2006, 8:34 PM
Post #5 of 39 (2377 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to unhook them and leave them unhooked.
Then one day I had a "bad "landing. got some sink by the target and didn't get a good flare. We hit hard and sideways. by the time the dust cleared, the passenger had done a full 360 degree twist at the shoulders and rolled in front of me, getting choked by the risers. Not real pretty. We weren't injured but between that and other landing incidents I've seen I think you are better off leaving them hooked up, keeping the two of you together instead of going your separate ways.

What is the safety advantage of unhooking them?


FlyinseivLP2  (D 18628)

Jun 3, 2006, 6:25 PM
Post #6 of 39 (2261 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am suprised to see how many people who leave them unclipped. It takes about 2 more seconds to loosen and reclip them. My examiner told me how he used to leave them unclipped, then once after finishing some spirals he went to let up on the toggle and found it trapped in the open quick release. This in addition to the obvious reasons for leaving them clipped should be enough to spend an extra 2-3 seconds clipping them.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)
Moderator
Jun 3, 2006, 6:27 PM
Post #7 of 39 (2260 views)
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Re: [FlyinseivLP2] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's why they should be secured once unclipped. Secure them behind the student's back by clipping them together.


swoopgaz  (E 1964)

Jun 3, 2006, 6:48 PM
Post #8 of 39 (2256 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

AS soon as the canopy is open and i've checked it i undo the clips and they stay of. The side clips shouldn't be that tight that you need the student to stand on your feet to undo the clips. if you do need them to stand on your feet the side clips are to tight.
It's is much more comfortable for the student having done a lot of tandems on the front aswell, and it is much easier to land. Remember it is all about the student so you have to make it as comfortable for them as possible.


efs4ever  (D 7014)

Jun 3, 2006, 8:53 PM
Post #9 of 39 (2246 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

I unclip them and re-attach them on the front of the passenger harness. I always brief them, as it feels a bit like they are coming un done.

____________


clint  (D 20790)

Jun 3, 2006, 9:01 PM
Post #10 of 39 (2242 views)
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Re: [swoopgaz] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

I disagree. The side clips should be as tight as possible. Less chance of side spin.

Sure I can undo the clips without having them stand on my feet but that's not as smooth. Just unclipping, as the last guy said, makes them feel like they are falling away. They don't even know that you've released them, when the instructor is good.

-


-


(This post was edited by clint on Jun 3, 2006, 9:07 PM)


birddog  (F 588)

Jun 4, 2006, 8:41 AM
Post #11 of 39 (2196 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

like slotperfect i reclip back onto there harness, This is only done after iam sure canopy is flying ok and it landable. THey dont even know they have been disconected.Smile


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)
Moderator
Jun 4, 2006, 9:31 AM
Post #12 of 39 (2194 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

I tighten the laterals in the airplane as tight as I can get them myself. This works well for all but very wide students, for which I either get them to help me or get my camera flyer to give them a tug. I jump a Sigma, on which I have found it is possible to overtighten the laterals, making disconnection under canopy nearly impossible. The older Vector II student harness was not that way for me.

Under canopy, once I have gained control of the canopy, cleared my airspace, and picked up a heading so as to stay on the wind line, I have the students put their feet on mine and stand up as I lift them under the arms. I wrap one arm around their waist to hold them there, then disconnect the lateral as I tell them that "I am making them more comfortable. Then I switch hands and release the other side, telling them to relax. At that point I connect the disconnected laterals together behind the student's back as stated above.


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Jun 4, 2006, 9:31 AM)


aironscott

Jun 4, 2006, 6:13 PM
Post #13 of 39 (2144 views)
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Re: [swoopgaz] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

Gary-
I'm 100% with Clint on this one. No offense but you should re-think your tandem program and include tightening the laterals very tight. Any other tandem I reading this should have no doubt in their mind that there should be no loose laterals in drouge fall. The tighter the better - period. I'm not a big fan of blanket statements like that but I can make that one with complete and total confidence.

As far as your poll goes Clint, I unhook the laterals after all is well with a good canopy. I prefer to be able to unclip my students quickly upon landing. That way they can hug me faster.

Aaron


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 5, 2006, 8:04 AM
Post #14 of 39 (2078 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I jump a Sigma, on which I have found it is possible to overtighten the laterals, making disconnection under canopy nearly impossible.

I also find that very tight laterals can be too tight on the Sigma. (My experience: ~ 400 tandems.) At the DZ I'm at, it seemed to be worse for stability, for example causing more chipping in freefall, as the instructors were forced into a dearched position at their hips. Disconnecting under canopy required more work (like standing on the feet most jumps). And it never seemed to give any benefit, compared to just having tight laterals, in being able to "fly as one" with the student. So at the DZ, after the first year or so with Sigmas, we no longer went crazy in the C-182 trying to tighten up the laterals as much as possible.

(We still consider it very important to have them tight, just not ridiculously so.)

At the DZ we always reconnect the laterals after disconnectig & loosening them.


Adrenalinejunky  (D 23536)

Jun 5, 2006, 11:29 AM
Post #15 of 39 (2032 views)
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Re: [aironscott] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am definitely with Aaron and Clint on this one. I have left the plane with laterals that weren't as quite as tight as I would have liked, and can definitely feel a difference. The students seem to have a little room to slide from side to side, and we don't fly as one as well. I delfinitely make sure that the laterals are as tight as I can get them. And I also disconnect them and leave them that way. Have had so many students comment on how they are more comfortable once that has been done. And like some other TI's here, that is just the way I was taught too. When I have stand up landings with small students, it seems easier to me to lean forward and diconnect the upper clips, rather than having to squat down so they can stand up before I disconnect all four points. Just my two cents.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Jun 5, 2006, 6:05 PM
Post #16 of 39 (1980 views)
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Re: [aironscott] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've done jumps where they were not only too tight to disconntect, but too tight to allow a comfortable arched position for my student.

I like snug. No room to move, but not restricted in arching.

I unhook the lowers, but will now start to clip them on the student harness or together.


livendive  (D 21415)

Jun 6, 2006, 8:38 AM
Post #17 of 39 (1922 views)
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Re: [FlyinseivLP2] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My examiner told me how he used to leave them unclipped, then once after finishing some spirals he went to let up on the toggle and found it trapped in the open quick release.

Back when I was flying 500's, I'd have my students help me turn & flare, and I also unclipped the laterals. Then one day I was setting up and found my student keeping a toggle buried. I yelled "let it up, let it up" as we spiraled through ~100 feet. He said "I can't!" and I looked and saw the clip through a hole in the cuff of his jumpsuit, with his hand bent in such a way that he couldn't let go of the toggle either. I dropped my toggles, punched the offending point hard enough to rip through the cuff and release his hand, grabbed brake lines, and flared to a halfway decent landing on concrete. It came extremely close to resulting in two *very* injured jumpers.

I no longer let my students touch the toggles below 1000' except on "progression" tandems, and on most jumps I simply slack the laterals through the friction adaptors rather than releasing them. Occasionally on heavies I can't slack them that way and do have to release the laterals, but upon release I slack them up and then reattach them.

Blues,
Dave


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jun 7, 2006, 3:51 PM
Post #18 of 39 (1833 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Wrong move. They both should be clipped back to the hip rings after being loosen all the way.

Safe Tandems !!!

(This post was edited by RIGGER on Jun 7, 2006, 3:55 PM)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 7, 2006, 9:22 PM
Post #19 of 39 (1816 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Smile Hi

Wrong move. They both should be clipped back to the hip rings after being loosen all the way.

Safe Tandems !!!

Well, so long as they are somewhere other than just dangling where they might snag a toggle is good for me.

To Gary: as a smaller tandem instructor, it's positively mandatory that I get the side straps undone prior to landing. Having a student hanging well forward because of tight/attached side straps means that I, too, am leaning too far forward to land like I want. I can't get my feet around my passenger if I am still connected.

I have had some really hard times getting "larger" passengers' side straps undone under canopy under Vector II and Sigma rigs, but have succeeded on all but one occasion. Thankfully, the side straps on my 2k3 Racer tandem loosen automatically after the canopy has deployed and the drogue has collapsed.

Chuck


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jun 8, 2006, 1:18 PM
Post #20 of 39 (1778 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

In reply to:

Well, so long as they are somewhere other than just dangling where they might snag a toggle is good for me.

No. they should be at the hip rings after being loosen, the only "somewhere" are the hip rings.

I can not understand my friends why TI's are doing what should not be done. The student MUST be hooked at all 4 points during the Tandem Jump !!!

Safe Tandems !!!

Shlomo

RWS Tandem I/E

USPA TCD & S&TA

(This post was edited by RIGGER on Jun 8, 2006, 1:23 PM)


lug  (D License)

Jun 15, 2006, 2:01 PM
Post #21 of 39 (1654 views)
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Re: [clint] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

Once I have determined that there is a safe canopy over our head I disconnect the laterals with out loosening them. I tell the student while shaking the laterals what I am going to do and why before I disconnect them because the student feels the release. I know what the students feel, I have ridden up front on currency jumps and phase 2 jumps and it is unnerving feeling to have the hips released with out warning.

Quote:
I personally get the students to stand on my feet and push down, doing a calf raise and I also pick them up by the harness at the hip and then release on side at a time. About 1-2 seconds apart.

I remember not to long ago a tandem went in, from a student standing on the tops of the instructorĺs feet and while stepping up reached back for something to hold onto and accidentally pulled the cutaway handle. Never loose awareness of what your student hands are doing.


(This post was edited by lug on Jun 15, 2006, 2:11 PM)


Adrenalinejunky  (D 23536)

Jun 16, 2006, 6:30 AM
Post #22 of 39 (1606 views)
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Re: [lug] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I remember not to long ago a tandem went in, from a student standing on the tops of the instructorĺs feet and while stepping up reached back for something to hold onto and accidentally pulled the cutaway handle. Never loose awareness of what your student hands are doing.
Quote:
That is one of the reasons why when I am training students, I explain to them that at no time during our skydive should they reach behind them to grab onto anything for security. I picked that up because of a TI that I filmed that pulled the students arms in to their chest before deployment. I didn't understand the reasoning behind it, so I asked him about it. He told me that one time he had a student pull the cutaway handle free of the velcro as they reached behind them for something to hold onto as the canopy was opening. I did three tandems before I began the AFF program, and have done a few more on the front for future TI's going through the tandem course. I know how uncomfortable it feels to be suddenly pulled upright, and want to hold onto something. Since I teach all students not to reach behind them, I have never had a problem with their hands being anywhere I don't want them. They stand on my feet with no problems, and I disconnect the lowers.


svst  (D 20295)

Jun 20, 2006, 2:44 PM
Post #23 of 39 (1533 views)
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Re: [Adrenalinejunky] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ive seen more and more TMs leaving their side connectors undone. I think eventually that TM is going to kill somebody by breaking the students neck on landing. It will happen when the student stops and the TM keeps moving forward and flips over the top of the student. This probably cannot happen with the side connectors still attached but anythings possible.

just my opinion and sticking with it!


Adrenalinejunky  (D 23536)

Jun 20, 2006, 3:14 PM
Post #24 of 39 (1531 views)
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Re: [svst] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

You bring up an interesting question. I was taught that technique from instructors with thousands of jumps, and in my skydiving career, I have never seen or heard of it creating additional problems on landing. I have been sitting here for a while now thinking about it. If the side connectors are still connected, and the student stops and you don't, the momentum would still continue through and can cause injuries. I don't see the increased risk of flipping over a student by having the connectors undone. Maybe if I have a student that is significantly taller than I am, and that would cause the center of gravity to be much higher. But still I would expect that it would cause the two to move more as one entity. We are still connected at the shoulders, and as I am thrown forward, I would pull them with me because of the shoulder connections. I only have a couple hundred tandems, and am far from knowing everything, so I am not trying to be a smartass. If anyone has more input, I would like to hear others opinions. I am always open to learning something new, and if it means changing the way I deal with my students to reduce the risk of injuring them, I am all for it!!


spud  (D 474)

Jun 21, 2006, 12:00 AM
Post #25 of 39 (1506 views)
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Re: [Adrenalinejunky] Tandem Instructor Poll: After opening - Do you re-attach the lower laterals? [In reply to] Can't Post

always undo side connectors after briefing student on landing at 2000' agl. If it's really turbulent I keep them attached but still losen them.


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